DPS Meter

One thing that I think would be a good touch would be a DPS meter you could opt into so it displays your personal stats to make sure you are doing your job properly. I personally love DPS meters because it helps me min-max the perfect build and is a quick way to find out what is truly helping in an actual fight. What does everyone else prefer?
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    The thing is that many games already have a damage log, it should be easy for them to implement an easy display for it. They can make it person specific (no one can see the dmg from other people except when you are the group leader).

    DPS meters have a place in games in my opinion, as long as you dont get isolated because you do mediocre dmg. Group/Raid leaders need dps meters to weed out the weak (people who dont carry their own weight if you know what i mean aka those that dont even do mediocre dmg and bring nothing else to the table)
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    I have a love-hate relationship with dps meters. On the one hand my inner nerd loves pouring over the data you get from them. But at the same time I hate having to rely on them to know if you are playing well or not.

    I'd prefer they stayed out of the game unless we absolutely needed them.
  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    edited May 25
    Eh, I guess if it's an optional, personal DPS meter that's fine. As long as other people can't see your DPS. But if you wanna test yourself and push your builds towards higher DPS, I think it's okay.

    It's really up to the community though. I would like to see Intrepid make some kind of limited DPS meter, but with the caveat that they can remove it if the community ever uses it to be abusive or exclusionary. As long as the community doesn't make a habit of demanding DPS meter screenshots or whatever, then it could stay in the game. (DPS isn't even a good measure of skill in groups anyways, because there are other ways to be useful in a group.)

    Also, if Intrepid makes an official DPS meter, that means they can have full control over it, and they can just outright ban third-party meters which might be more abuse-able.

    Edit: I think personal DPS meters are good enough for hardcore groups as well, because ideally you can just tell them what your DPS meter says. If there's trust in the group, then there's no issue. If there's a lack of trust then maybe that group shouldn't be running hardcore content together in the first place.
  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    I dislike dps meters alot. Especially if its displayed to others in a party. First of all if there is a dps meter, a heal or buff meter would be equally important to have. Also this pushes players into meta builds more to get max dps + prefering raw damage numbers over being a utility player or supporting in other means then doing damage. But iam more of a pvp/pk player myselve and never got into serious raiding, maybe iam wrong and it is really needed to weed out the weak so to say ? It just feels wrong to funnel down on numbers when fighting in a world full of grahpics and animations to base gameplay on.
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  • grisugrisu Member
    dps check bosses are a staple boss to check if you are prepared for that raid/dungeon/content. It's an easy and good way to establish a baseline a raid has to hit before they can expect to clear the dungeon at all.

    If I can't check what's wrong I can't improve and get ready. Especially if there is a multitude of ways to build, distribute stats and so on. Ideally everything is in an acceptable similar range and it's all more a question of how the damage is delivered and situational strong points. (high burst phases, slowly ramping up damage, constant sustained damage, aoe, dot damage, magical, physical whatever), but there is only so much balancing you can do, the more variables you enter the harder it gets to check them all. (which again is an argument for dps meter, it provides nonstop contextual community statistics to aid the balancing progress)

    Imo there HAS to be a way to check your performance and imo there HAS to be a way to quickcheck if someone is ready for whatever content. You can't expect to sucessfully run a level 50 dungeon with level 25 gear (this is examplatory for a game designed this way).

    If I take a person like that anyway it's because I made an informed desicion and I understand that I put a handicap on the group. In contrast if we just go in without knowing anything there is no way to understand why it's not working and why we can't progress. (exluding obvious reasons of failure like standing in hellfire for a minute)
    Is it me? Should I use skills differently? Am I oom because I overhealed? Or is the tank not reacting properly to attacks? Is the fight taking to long because we lack the damage output?
    Every role is interdependant, you can't just eliminate reasons and know when there isn't anything obviously wrong like the hellfire example.

    I could put 50 questions on that and have no way to eliminate any of them.

    Some games don't need it, they have very linear progression were you progress through levels and at max level you progress through tiers of difficulty. You just have more or less the gear of the last 2 tiers and you are good to go. Same with skills, you have them, you use them, it's that simple.

    Ashes is, according to IS, not one of them, crafting is important and brings randomness into the equation. What mats are available? What can the server craft with it? You have a whole range of stat combinations/weighting through it, lot's of skills to build your skill kit from, augmentations, unlocks, ability/weapon progression and so on.
    It needs a simplyfication to check if your particular way of building all those components together gets you anywhere you want to be.

    People find ways, they always do, it only needs one video of one guy showing how his build absolutly murders that monster/those players. People will flock to that if it goes unchecked and stays "unbalanced" wether dps meter is there or not. I'm sure most of us have read class guides at one point to see what "is good".
    Quote on quote because you can't even be sure if that is considered good or just a bit better than all the bad ways before.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I am hoping there is no meter. Just a number attached to the weapon and the ability. If there is a DPS I hope there is no way for sharing or seeing other peoples numbers.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I am hoping there is no meter. Just a number attached to the weapon and the ability. If there is a DPS I hope there is no way for sharing or seeing other peoples numbers.

    I think a good compromise would be that only the group leader could see the overall damage/dps meter for everyone.
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  • burnthefernburnthefern Member, Settler
    Damokles wrote: »
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I am hoping there is no meter. Just a number attached to the weapon and the ability. If there is a DPS I hope there is no way for sharing or seeing other peoples numbers.

    I think a good compromise would be that only the group leader could see the overall damage/dps meter for everyone.

    While I am pro meter in any form, this wouldn't really solve the elitism issue that Intrepid is trying to avoid by not allowing dps meters. It would stop a lot of the toxicity that comes from other players knowing they are doing better than you though.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Damokles wrote: »
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I am hoping there is no meter. Just a number attached to the weapon and the ability. If there is a DPS I hope there is no way for sharing or seeing other peoples numbers.

    I think a good compromise would be that only the group leader could see the overall damage/dps meter for everyone.

    You know, the funny thing is that despite the name, the dps number of the dps meter is probably the least useful part of a modern dps meter. Unfortunately it's also the part that most people look at the most and causes so many problems.

    "you only did 13k dps on that last attempt...."

    Great, that information alone is completely worthless without context. That is another reason why I don't like dps meters, because so many people don't know how to use them properly.
  • sylsyl Member
    I am not really keen into DPS meters, and I stand by the same feeling the devs have about them: They can have negative effects on the game.(source)
    If the game has DPS meters, they should not be visible to the public. There should also be a healing equivalent.

    Overall, I think the game would be better off having a DPS number attached to the weapon.
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  • I dislike dps meters as well I think they cause more damage to the community and would be especially problematic in an open world game where those dps can just tag along and follow you into an open raid or dungeon and cause problems for your group with extra pulls or just tag along and still fight without having to be in your party.

    Sure there are going to be some instance raids/dungeons but most of them will be open to anyone any way and if someone you're trying to shut out can just follow you in, why use dps meters.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    @burnthefern @wanderingmist

    I know that the DPS in itself is useless, but they also have a "total damage done" meter, which in turn is incredibly usefull.
    Elitism is always something that should be avoided but we should also consider another thing: Raids in general were once only doable for the best geared/skilled PvE players (the "elites") mostly.

    I led Raids from WoD through Legion to BfA, and the total damage done meter was immensely helpfull to root out those that were either doing something very wrong or just didnt carry their own weight.
    It is always easy for normal raiders to say that the raids became too focused on elitism, but if you cant do the modicum of damage to the boss and dont bring anything else to the table (buffs from the paladin, off heal from the druid, heroism/windfury from shaman, ability to soak aoes etc (thats all froma classic perspective) ) then you just cant do the raid.
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  • insomniainsomnia Member
    I recall them saying there wouldn't be one. As others have said, sometimes they cause more harm than good. It isn't always about how much dps you do. Also about cc etc
  • Magic ManMagic Man Member
    It is most relevant for tab target. As the game goes for a hybrid combat, I don't think it will be needed.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    @damokles It's not even elitism, just ignorant players who either can't be bothered or are unable to analyse the data and consider it in context. Your average WoW player installs a dps meter and literally just looks at the "damage done" number and nothing else, then draws incorrect conclusions based on it. Whenever you have a boss mechanic that causes a player to stop attacking the boss (for whatever reason), that will affect that player's dps. You say you raided in BFA so I assume you killed Zek'voz in Uldir right? In that fight during the 2nd and 3rd phases random players get hit by the "Roiling Deceit" debuff, which inflicts damage to that player and then drops a cloud on the floor. Standing in the cloud will spawn an add, so it's important to drop the cloud in a place where nobody is going to walk into it.

    Whenever a player gets the debuff they are going to have to stop dps'ing the boss to go and drop off the cloud, and the further away a player moves, the safer the cloud will be. Of course, the further a player moves to drop off their cloud, the less dps they will deal. Since these clouds stay until the end of the fight, if you are greedy with your dps and put the cloud in a bad spot, you can screw over someone else who then has to move to avoid the cloud you dropped.

    Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a player with lower dps who is considerate about what they do with debuffs like this, than a selfish player who only thinks about getting to the top of the dps meter. Note, I'm not saying here that damage meters aren't useful. They are a very valuable tool when it comes to progression raiding. BUT! The majority of players I'm met don't know how to use them properly which results in toxicity due to their ignorance.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    @wanderingmist
    I did not mean that players should all do top damage. If you read my post then you also saw that i always wrote "mediocre dps". That means that players should of course always do the mechanics instead of staying and tryjng to get in another fireball ;)

    That is why i think that only raid leaders should get insight on overall group damage/damage taken/healing/overhealing meters (with dps totally left out).
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  • grisugrisu Member
    I argued for this before and if someone is a shitty person and doesn't have a dps meter that person will just latch on to the next most obvious thing, the person that died first.
    Doesn't matter if you failed, the tank failed or the healer failed to keep you alive. You died you are the problem. Seen that a lot of times in games without parsers and instakicks without any words.
    It's not a problem of elitism, it's just garbage human behaviour.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don't know, if only a raid/guild leader can see the number, that doesn't prevent them from telling everyone the number. I am also not a fan of the "total damage done" if less than optimal means "someone is playing their character wrong." How are you going to tell someone they are playing a game they pay for just like you in a guild they joined likely because of friends and like-minded individuals they are playing the game "wrong."

    Just because I don't min/max my character and use the 'optimal rotations' does not mean I am not having fun, I am not an engaged member of the group, I don't bring tactical insight to the raid, or that I somehow made my character "wrong."

    I know the common response is along the lines of "what's best for the raid?" In my opinion, what's best for the raid is having players there (within an appropriate level) that want to engage positively with others. Also, it's a game so forcing some form of irl competition onto guild mates that just want to play and raid with their friends is odd... imo.

    "Sorry guild buddy that is really cool, super tactical, and always a blast to have around, you didn't build your character the right way so you can't raid with us anymore. Get an alt." - Weird guy quotes
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  • grisugrisu Member
    What you describe is like hiring a clown(I do not mean that with any negative implications) for a car mechanic position instead of a moral boost position. Sure you will be fun to have around but you do not have the qualification to be in that activity and fulfill the job you have been picked up for.
    You are simply in the wrong guild/ -raid.
    I have been part of both, the progressive raiders and the scrappy let's have fun and just see what we can achiev raiders. Both are fun, as long as everyone is on the same page. Nothing is more frustrating then people pulling in a different direction.
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  • burnthefernburnthefern Member, Settler
    Damokles wrote: »
    @burnthefern @wanderingmist

    I know that the DPS in itself is useless, but they also have a "total damage done" meter, which in turn is incredibly usefull.
    Elitism is always something that should be avoided but we should also consider another thing: Raids in general were once only doable for the best geared/skilled PvE players (the "elites") mostly.

    I led Raids from WoD through Legion to BfA, and the total damage done meter was immensely helpfull to root out those that were either doing something very wrong or just didnt carry their own weight.
    It is always easy for normal raiders to say that the raids became too focused on elitism, but if you cant do the modicum of damage to the boss and dont bring anything else to the table (buffs from the paladin, off heal from the druid, heroism/windfury from shaman, ability to soak aoes etc (thats all froma classic perspective) ) then you just cant do the raid.

    Oh I definitely agree with you. I was on the top end of raiding for a while and was usually in charge of deciding what healers werent carrying their weight and kicking them. I do think it's extremely helpful to know who isnt doing their job, but that's also exactly why I dont think we will see meters. Theres no way to avoid that exclusion that comes with that knowledge. Intrepid wants to avoid that exclusion as much as possible.
  • ShoklenShoklen Member
    insomnia wrote: »
    I recall them saying there wouldn't be one. As others have said, sometimes they cause more harm than good. It isn't always about how much dps you do. Also about cc etc

    I vaguely remember hearing the same a long time ago. Hopefully the stance hasn't changed.

    If I am remembering correctly and there will not be any parseable data coming from the engine.. Then no point debating it, really.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    @grisu I think my example was more of hiring your friend who is almost like a mechanic versus hiring a real one. If you want to have fun and get some work done on your car, your friend is fine. If you want to let the professionals handle it, then maybe don't use your friend. But in both your example and mine there is an indication of a more serious/professional level of gaming.

    If you are in a hardcore guild, you likely won't have these types anyways as you mention. But not all guilds are hardcore, and some that aren't still kick members from raids for not having the 'right' build. I do see your point, if you want to be able to exclude players because they didn't pick the one optimal build for their class, a hardcore guild is likely more your style.

    I agree with @burnthefern as well. I would go a step further and say that not only does IS want to avoid that level of exclusion, they would probably like to avoid having their player base build the same 8 characters over and over because of optimization. Will this happen? Sure, but that doesn't mean IS has to implement the tools to help.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    @damokles and @burnthefern Again, that information from the meters is only useful if you know how to analyse it in the context of each fight. To do that you typically need to know everything about the boss mechanics and be familiar with every single class in your raid. Just because someone is a raid leader doesn't mean they know everything, especially on progression runs where dps meters are of the most use.

    It's all very well saying "oh, that person did the lowest amount of healing/damage" but unless you know why that happened, the information is useless to you. In order to fix a problem you have to know the underlying causes, which requires you to not only look at all the information on a dps meter, but to see what happened in the fight itself. How many times have you seen a raid leader rage at someone for dying and yet the raid leader has absolutely no idea why the death happened? It happens so often and it comes down to pure ignorance, nothing more.



    This video shows just how much information you can gain from both a dps meter and warcraft logs, information that is crucial for finding out why your raid team can't kill a boss. The thing is, the majority of people who install a dps meter never look past the "damage done" or "healing done" number, so they are only getting perhaps 10% of the amount of information available to them.
  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    edited May 26
    Yeah the more I think about it, the more I just want a personal DPS meter, for things like determining which of my abilities contributes the highest percentage of my damage. All the group problems are still... problematic, but I just don't like the idea of being completely in the dark about my own abilities.

    Of course, there are several factors to that personal problem, apart from DPS meters. Vague ability tooltips, opaque damage formulas or combat systems, and a general lack of feedback in combat -- they can lead me to be totally clueless about how my own abilities even work, much less how useful they are holistically. And I speak from experience in other games, so these problems are very real to me.

    DPS meters offer the extreme solution of having as much possible real-world data on your abilities as the possible (however much the meter can parse), and it's all collated and graphed for you. I don't think THAT much feedback is necessary though, if all the built-in systems are transparent enough, and the regular old, textual battle logs and tooltips are complete enough. (Having random damage ranges on attacks kinda ruins the battle logs though, since you would have to get several samples and average them out.)

    To put is simply, I just want to feedback and/or transparency on my own skills. A personal DPS meter makes that easy, although it's maybe not necessary.

    But we're all in agreement that feedback on OTHER player's damage (or heals) is just ripe for abuse and short-sighted judgments.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    edited May 26
    @Leonerdo the problem of how much information to give to players about game mechanics is something developers have struggled with for decades. Even if the devs wanted to give us all the information (which is unlikely), it just isn't practical.

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Defense

    This is the wiki page for a single stat that used to exist in WoW. Do you really expect the devs to put all this information into the tooltips in game?

    You do touch on a good point though, which is that in modern WoW combat there are tons of passive procs baked into each class that can only be tracked using a dps meter. It's physically impossible to tell where your damage is coming from without referring to a dps meter. I doubt Ashes will have this problem, at least in the very beginning.
  • grisugrisu Member
    @azathoth You lost me there, I seem to not be able to understand where your example is coming from and I don't like your implications at all.
    I obviously don't know your personal experiences and I am sorry if those experiences lead you to such a negative view to focused raiding, because focused raiding is a lot of fun too and not at all business like.
    I'll leave this topic be now either way.
    Azathoth wrote: »
    (...)they would probably like to avoid having their player base build the same 8 characters over and over because of optimization. Will this happen? Sure, but that doesn't mean IS has to implement the tools to help.

    So instead of fixing an obvious problem, imbalance, they just hope that the community won't notice it at all/for a longer time?
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  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    edited May 26
    @wanderingmist I certainly don't expect ALL of the info to be put into tooltips. But if there is a numeric effect that a certain stat or ability has, then I expect to see some kind of number in the tooltip.

    I'm not asking for all the complicated formulas and level scalings and whatnot to be documented in tooltips. That's what wikis are for. Of course, I don't expect the Intrepid to prioritize any kind of wiki support until long after the launch of the game. But I hope that eventually they help out on that front, like the GW2 devs do.

    I'm trying to keep reasonable expectations, but at heart I want access to as much information as possible.
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    As long as nobody other than myself can see my damage / healing done; and Intrepid lets me report those that find a way to do it, so they get banned. The same way FF14 does it, i'd be OK with it.
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  • burnthefernburnthefern Member, Settler
    @damokles and @burnthefern Again, that information from the meters is only useful if you know how to analyse it in the context of each fight. To do that you typically need to know everything about the boss mechanics and be familiar with every single class in your raid. Just because someone is a raid leader doesn't mean they know everything, especially on progression runs where dps meters are of the most use.

    It's all very well saying "oh, that person did the lowest amount of healing/damage" but unless you know why that happened, the information is useless to you. In order to fix a problem you have to know the underlying causes, which requires you to not only look at all the information on a dps meter, but to see what happened in the fight itself. How many times have you seen a raid leader rage at someone for dying and yet the raid leader has absolutely no idea why the death happened? It happens so often and it comes down to pure ignorance, nothing more.



    This video shows just how much information you can gain from both a dps meter and warcraft logs, information that is crucial for finding out why your raid team can't kill a boss. The thing is, the majority of people who install a dps meter never look past the "damage done" or "healing done" number, so they are only getting perhaps 10% of the amount of information available to them.

    Again, this still leads to exclusion. I never mentioned exclusion based on a single metric, I'm talking about people not pulling their weight when all the metrics are considered. If someone's class cant perform to a certain standard, and as a player they are unable to mechanically perform at the skill level required, would you keep them onboard? I personally wouldn't. That's exclusion. You seem to be under the impression that every raid leader will act altruistically when given access to this data. People are pretty shitty, and while I believe you would use the meters to better the raid by figuring out who needs advice instead of a kicking, I firmly believe most wouldn't. Now, again, I do agree that there should be meters, however I dont think we will see them because of the exclusion that they bring.
  • burnthefernburnthefern Member, Settler
    @wanderingmist
    Cant edit on mobile for some reason, but I re read your post and you seem to understand that most people aren't going to be using this information correctly. So I'm unsure as to what the point you're making is?
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