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  • MeowsedMeowsed Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2023
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    Mega troll frmr1cq9w89im2.jpg
  • There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

    Changing specs won't be easy, that has been said. Therefore you either run the most optimal build or risk being left out in lots of content.
    Even semi casual guilds will require you to run the most optimal build.

    If you don't raid or do some hard content, it won't matter. But in any place where people need to pull their own weight and there's a party size limit, well, not much options left open.

  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

    Changing specs won't be easy, that has been said. Therefore you either run the most optimal build or risk being left out in lots of content.
    Even semi casual guilds will require you to run the most optimal build.

    If you don't raid or do some hard content, it won't matter. But in any place where people need to pull their own weight and there's a party size limit, well, not much options left open.

    Except changing specs will be plenty easy? You can change gear and what abilities you take at will. There’s nothing stopping your from carrying a couple gearsets that fit different scenarios.

    You can’t instantly change the fundamentals of your class, or instantly alter skill augments, but that isn’t going to make or break your effectiveness unless, again, you assume IS will fail spectacularly at balancing.

    A semi-casual guild isn’t going to mandate optimized gear. If they do, then they’re definitely not a semi-casual guild. Casual guilds and PUGs don’t care unless you stop them from clearing.

    I’ve been in enough PUGs to know. I’ve been a healer pulling 40% of the group dps in a hardmode 4-man dungeon, no hard dps checks so no one bothered saying anything. I’ve seen a player taking dirt naps, get rez’d, and immediately die again in a 12man raid, left him on the ground but no one bothered suggesting to kick them. I’ve had people be literally afk from 30s in, unless the group needed the body to open a door or something, we always left them to loiter offline.

    The only times I’ve kicked or seen someone kicked from a PUG is when they inhibit progress. If they ignore mechanics that kill groupmates, or they ignore mechanics that heal the boss, or we literally just need a 12th body and they’re afk at the start of the raid.

    I can count on one hand how many times I’ve seen anyone kicked for bad dps outside of hard dps checks.
  • JesforartJesforart Member
    edited May 2020
    AoC has not hit the market and it will be some time before they fully reveal, how they intend the class system will work. The whole game could change in a blink of an eye.

    Even though i believe in Intrepid as a game developer, they are going to have to come up with some next-gen class ideas, that will fully get me on board with the mmo and the combat of the mmo.

    I have seen this wide gamut of a primary class and secondary class system, tank very harshly just because of balance issues. Guild Wars 1 was very prolific in identifying itself as a mmo with this type of class system (it wasn't an exact match), it took Arenanet years past the mmo's life cycle to finally balance the entire system.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Jesforart wrote: »
    <snipped>

    Gear is already going to have changeable stats on them. What would having specific weights to armor even do? If Light Armor can be heavy whats the point? You'll almost certainly be able to get high-defense gear and enchant it with magical stats.

    This seems like a decent single player idea, not so much for an mmo
  • grisugrisu Member
    Did I miss some change of philosophy on intrepid part?
    Gear and specs will be easily changeable? Since when?
    Last I heard is that changing 2ndary classes will require quite a process.
    They don't want people to have tons of armorsets cluttering their inventories and do a one fit all situation.

    Gear itself comes mostly from crafting which is supposedly a deep and intricate process. Assuming you can just buy a complet revamped set for different stats is quite a bold statement for casual players that don't go out of their way to hoard money/ materials.

    Last I heard is that they want every decision to have lasting effects on every scale, from personal to server wide.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    grisu wrote: »
    Did I miss some change of philosophy on intrepid part?
    Gear and specs will be easily changeable? Since when?
    Last I heard is that changing 2ndary classes will require quite a process.
    They don't want people to have tons of armorsets cluttering their inventories and do a one fit all situation.

    Gear itself comes mostly from crafting which is supposedly a deep and intricate process. Assuming you can just buy a complet revamped set for different stats is quite a bold statement for casual players that don't go out of their way to hoard money/ materials.

    Last I heard is that they want every decision to have lasting effects on every scale, from personal to server wide.

    Yes, gear will come mostly from crafting. No, that does not mean people will not have two or three gearsets to swap between as needed. At the very least you would want a set for general solo play and another for any group play.

    Yes, some decisions like class selections and augment choices will have lasting effects. No, equipping a piece of armor is not a lasting decision.

    You can change out which skills are on your bar whenever you want, not augments, but skills. We know we’ll have access to plenty more than will fit on the skill bar.

    You’re asking to remove classes entirely, which are the most important player decisions in a game like this. Why should the most important decisions be tired to gear that is by design not a lasting decision?
  • grisugrisu Member
    edited May 2020
    Caeryl wrote: »
    No, that does not mean people will not have two or three gearsets to swap between as needed. At the very least you would want a set for general solo play and another for any group play.

    That is contrary to what Intrepid has stated in the past multiple times as I have pointed out with 2 separate approaches. If you just deny that without providing new statements from them that this philosophy has changed than you have no ground to stand on.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    grisu wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    No, that does not mean people will not have two or three gearsets to swap between as needed. At the very least you would want a set for general solo play and another for any group play.

    That is contrary to what Intrepid has stated in the past multiple times as I have pointed out with 2 separate approaches. If you just deny that without providing new statements from them that this philosophy has changed than you have no ground to stand on.

    I have heard they want to encourage grouping. I have not heard anything about every aspect of the game requiring group support.

    If you have evidence otherwise that we should expect material gathering, arena based PvP, or basic exploring to require grouping (where you might want mobility over offensive stats, or more defense since you don’t get healer support in a 1v1 arena tourney, and even in 3v3s or 5v5s you may plan differently), then by all means, but it is sensible to expected to have to use multiple setups at various points of the gameplay experience, whether that consists of gear or just slotted abilities. Even in group play with other games, I always carried an extra set or two depending on what the other healer(s) planned on wearing.

    As I said in another thread, if one gear setup will address every part of the game, then something has not been designed well. Either the gear setup is overpowered, or the game’s content is not demanding enough. at the very least, you would be changing out enchantments on the gear itself depending on your needs.
  • grisugrisu Member
    Caeryl wrote: »
    (...) it is sensible to expected to have to use multiple setups at various points of the gameplay experience,
    As I said in another thread, if one gear setup will address every part of the game, then something has not been designed well. Either the gear setup is overpowered, or the game’s content is not demanding enough. at the very least, you would be changing out enchantments on the gear itself depending on your needs.

    It is sensible, I agree there, I think gearing up for different hazards for example is a good enough excuse to gear into various things, but it is nonetheless against what intrepid has stated in the past with gear itself.
    They did say that you can enchant horizontally to make your sword attack do more magical damage if you feel yourself fight a lot of things more suspectible to it, but gear itself isn't switched out.
    Horizontal enchantments are more situational. For example: I'd like my sword to do force damage instead of holy damage because the monsters I tend to fight are incorporeal.[49]
    This doesn't make the item more powerful, but instead more applicable to different situations, and less so to others.
    This type of enchanting assumes no risk, just time and effort.
    (it's counter intuitive, I know, I am not happy with it either and that's why I wanted to know if their stance on gear itself changed) and even that horizontal progression is considered time and effort consuming.

    You have to constantly supply yourself with materials to repair it so I Wouldn't want to run around with my highest gear items built from a boss item constantly and rather have a spare, not so good set to use on everyday content.
    That feels like a logical conclusion, but it nevertheless is against what IS has stated that one gear set will be your gear for all activities whether it's pve/pvp/ large small scale.
    It wasn't so much about it being strong, but it reflecting your play style in all circumstances. So there wouldn't be a stat like "resilliance" that specifically reduces damage from other players. It's all still a little vague and conceptional.

    I am trying to find the exact quote, but I have yet to dig it up.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    grisu wrote: »
    They did say that you can enchant horizontally to make your sword attack do more magical damage if you feel yourself fight a lot of things more suspectible to it, but gear itself isn't switched out.
    The only comments along these lines that I recall were in regards to switching gear during combat - it won't be something that players really do.

    Switching gear between solo and group though? I've not heard them say anything about it.

    I may have missed it, that's happened a number of times. But when you specifically said about switching out gear, it did make me recall that comment about not switching out gear in combat.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    grisu wrote: »
    That feels like a logical conclusion, but it nevertheless is against what IS has stated that one gear set will be your gear for all activities whether it's pve/pvp/ large small scale.
    It wasn't so much about it being strong, but it reflecting your play style in all circumstances. So there wouldn't be a stat like "resilliance" that specifically reduces damage from other players. It's all still a little vague and conceptional.

    I am trying to find the exact quote, but I have yet to dig it up.

    What I gathered from them saying you won’t have different gear for PvE and PvP, is that it’s a PvX game and your gear should probably be planned with the assumption you will end up PvPing in it, even if you intend to use it for PvE content.

    I’d be incredibly surprised if they expected each player to have only one frequently used gearset.
  • grisugrisu Member
    edited May 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SpiG0Ulbg&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=14m5s

    Edit: Retrying it in here instead of youtube it seems like it won't start. so 14:05 if you want to check it out. I'm pretty sure that was the exchange I had in mind for this topic. I really just can't remember any more, too much information floating around in too many livestream qna that really isn't organized yet despite of having the wiki.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    grisu wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SpiG0Ulbg&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=14m5s

    Edit: Retrying it in here instead of youtube it seems like it won't start. so 14:05 if you want to check it out. I'm pretty sure that was the exchange I had in mind for this topic. I really just can't remember any more, too much information floating around in too many livestream qna that really isn't organized yet despite of having the wiki.

    From that exchange, it seems even more like they simply want all gear to generally be usable to either type of combat, aka you’re not wasting stats from strictly-PvP gear or strictly-PvE gear when you enter the “wrong” type of combat.
  • grisugrisu Member
    Well I don't know what else to show you then to show you they literally said they don't want people to have to have multiple sets. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm pretty sure there was another exchange homing that in even more but I don't know where to look for it.

    My question is answered, they didn't change their philosophy so take from it what you will.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • grisu wrote: »
    Well I don't know what else to show you then to show you they literally said they don't want people to have to have multiple sets. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm pretty sure there was another exchange homing that in even more but I don't know where to look for it.

    My question is answered, they didn't change their philosophy so take from it what you will.

    They clearly said that in the context of pvp-exclusive or pve-exclusive gear. For example one game I played (I think it was FFXIV) had pvp-stats on their pvp gear and the normal pve stats were not usable in pvp. You could still use the gear in the content it was not made for but the stats would be around 10% of what the right gear would be.
    Them not making the differentiation is all i hear here.

    Going throug the game without multiple gearsets depending of the situation is very unlikely in my eyes for two reasons.
    1. Most games, even games with the most boring equipment system, allow you some range of customisation be it just a bit more attack or a bit more defence it could also be more intersting since from faster movementspeed, lower attack dmg in exchange for lower cooldowns, special efects or resistances, ....
    The only way to make it not the norm for players to have multiple gear sets is giving every gear a single stat that is the same on every gear (so no strenght, defence, but just gear score or something) and if one item has 100 and the new item has 101 then you take the new item.
    To make an example. In FFXIV I played a shield tank (paladin) and the shields had two different stats (that were important for me). Block rate and Block efficencie. One decided what percentage of attacks I blocked and the other what percentage of dmg I blocked. I gathered ALL shields that were roughly at the end level range (normaly 4-5 different shields) and used them depending on what set up i used and what I was figthing. (they pretty much simplified it later on so there were one shield for all solution... boring as hell for me).

    2. Crafting.
    From the wiki:
    Crafting in Ashes of Creation is recipe based, not RNG based.[8][9]

    Within a crafting recipe, there are dials (based on artisan specialization) that are used customize crafted items, such as:[10]
    Increasing one stat at the expense of another.[11]
    Making an item more magical versus more physical.[11]

    I think Star Wars Galaxies had a great crafting system... The resource gathering and the crafting system altogether as a whole really was I think way beyond its time. That's kind of the direction we want to go, where there's choices to be made in the crafting system and those choices change what you end up with... It's not just about doing X recipe to get Y item. You know, there's actually thought involved in it and there is you know a market to be captured based on those decisions.[12] – Jeffrey Bard

    If crafting really allows for customized items then (depending on how much customisation they allow) the number of items will be much larger than it is in other games. There is not one "iron dagger" but 15 or 50 different "iron daggers" that are all slightly different. If one single item could have many different custom builds then the different equipment sets one could design are limitless.
    Of course there will probably be some go-to stats that are more desired than others but how much that weigths is hard to say.


  • WongWong Member, Intrepid Pack
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

    They've said that they will balance classes for group content and that every class will have a way to complete solo content, but that doesn't mean classes will be balanced for 1v1 situations which they have also said that they won't be. I don't remember exactly what they said about metas - something about flavor of the month is going around in my head.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    mrsynth wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

    They've said that they will balance classes for group content and that every class will have a way to complete solo content, but that doesn't mean classes will be balanced for 1v1 situations which they have also said that they won't be. I don't remember exactly what they said about metas - something about flavor of the month is going around in my head.


    Classes shouldn’t be balanced for 1v1s, that’s how you get stale combat. But IS plan on having carousel balancing, adjustments from patch to patch so nothing is best in every situation for an extensive length of time.

    Their biggest balancing challenges are going to come from single-roll groups, and how they decide to address buff/healing/debuff/DoT stacking.

    None of this has any impact on your idea of “cookie cutter” builds based on generally good stats. There will be room for unique builds if you put in the effort and data crunching to make them work, but people who actually put in a lot of research and number crunching into developing accessible effective builds deserve praise whether they share those builds or not.

    Because at the end of the day, you can call a build “cookie cutter” or “unique” or “cheese” or “niche”, but everyone who made them put in the effort and research to make them work, and that deserves praise whether 5 people run their build or 500.
  • inusaainusaa Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    :D
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Ikcen wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    mrsynth wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
    Nothing else.

    If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

    Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
    Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

    No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

    Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

    They've said that they will balance classes for group content and that every class will have a way to complete solo content, but that doesn't mean classes will be balanced for 1v1 situations which they have also said that they won't be. I don't remember exactly what they said about metas - something about flavor of the month is going around in my head.


    Classes shouldn’t be balanced for 1v1s, that’s how you get stale combat. But IS plan on having carousel balancing, adjustments from patch to patch so nothing is best in every situation for an extensive length of time.

    Their biggest balancing challenges are going to come from single-roll groups, and how they decide to address buff/healing/debuff/DoT stacking.

    None of this has any impact on your idea of “cookie cutter” builds based on generally good stats. There will be room for unique builds if you put in the effort and data crunching to make them work, but people who actually put in a lot of research and number crunching into developing accessible effective builds deserve praise whether they share those builds or not.

    Because at the end of the day, you can call a build “cookie cutter” or “unique” or “cheese” or “niche”, but everyone who made them put in the effort and research to make them work, and that deserves praise whether 5 people run their build or 500.

    In fact classes should be balanced for 1 vs 1. This is the most important balance. Also they should be balanced for party vs party, and for zerg vs zerg. But 1 vs 1 is above all. As if you have a good balance in 1 vs 1 then it is easier to reach the other balances. And there are different kinds of balance. For example you can balance the classes at the stone - paper way. It is easier than full par, and also makes more sense.

    Rock, paper, scissors balancing is by definition not balanced for 1v1s.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2020
    Ikcen wrote: »
    In fact classes should be balanced for 1 vs 1.
    To add to what Caeryl said above, it would be all but impossible for Intrepid to balance for 1v1 in a game with support classes, if the intention is for those support classes to also be balanced for group play.

    If a class is based around (or even based heavily on) group buffs, that means the more people in the group, the more useful that person is.

    In order to balance for 1v1, those group buffs that the support player has would need to be strong enough for that support class to be able to take on other classes by themselves. When you then take that same support class with those same group buffs and apply those buffs to 7 other characters, that would mean that the support player is adding far more to that group than any other class, meaning a group with a support class in it will always beat a group without a support class.

    Basically, there is no way to balance a class that is based on supporting others for both group and solo play in any aspect. The only way to even balance for raid level play is if the buffs only affect a single group or a single target within the raid.

    Basically, any developer needs to decide where they want the balance of their classes to be based, and then simply attempt to keep a sense of balance in the rest of the game.

    Since the meaningful PvP in Ashes will happen at the raid level as opposed to the solo level, there would be no reason to balance things at that solo level at the expense of any other level.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ikcen wrote: »
    Also you can add some damage and speed modifiers to balance the zerg, like penalties for the large parties. So the 100 vs 20 to be a playable situation. Well the 20 will lose almost certainly, but there will be a PvP.
    What?

    No.

    The game shouldn't attempt to balance things out based on how many people are present. That is ridiculous and arbitrary.

    If you bring more people, you win. If you bring a lot more people, you win fast.

    PvP in Ashes is about the outcome more than the fight. If you can bring people to kill you opposition in a few seconds, more power to you.
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