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Any Guild Wars 2 Inspiration/Mechanic implementation? Edit: A thread about mobile combat
Dreoh
Member
I've been an avid MMO player since the launch of Vanilla WoW and have played many different titles, eventually ending up with GW2 and Wildstar (RIP) as my favourites because of their world and combat systems.
I've been looking around to see if there's any mechanics that were taken from these games but to no avail. It's a little disappointing and discomforting personally because after playing the fluidity of GW2's hybrid tab-target/action and constantly moving combat I have a hard time playing MMO's where you spend most of the time stationary and just racking up damage/heals with the occasional "move out of the fire" gameplay.
From what I've seen from AoC gameplay, it looks like casting is stationary and there's going to be little movement and that's very disappointing to me if that's the case, but I might be willing to endure it for the sake of all the other world mechanics I've seen so far. That being said, I understand I have a bit of a bias that might be showing here.
Anyways, to sum up my long preamble and get to my question, have the developers talked about any mechanics they've liked from GW2, combat or otherwise? It seems Steven has a preference for classic Tab-targeting games and I haven't really seen him mention any of the "relatively newer" MMO's other than BDO a few times.
Edit: I guess I should add that I know there's going to be some action-combat abilities in AoC, but I'm wondering how they will play out, and how limited they are if at all?
Edit2: Better clarified thread summary in title
I've been looking around to see if there's any mechanics that were taken from these games but to no avail. It's a little disappointing and discomforting personally because after playing the fluidity of GW2's hybrid tab-target/action and constantly moving combat I have a hard time playing MMO's where you spend most of the time stationary and just racking up damage/heals with the occasional "move out of the fire" gameplay.
From what I've seen from AoC gameplay, it looks like casting is stationary and there's going to be little movement and that's very disappointing to me if that's the case, but I might be willing to endure it for the sake of all the other world mechanics I've seen so far. That being said, I understand I have a bit of a bias that might be showing here.
Anyways, to sum up my long preamble and get to my question, have the developers talked about any mechanics they've liked from GW2, combat or otherwise? It seems Steven has a preference for classic Tab-targeting games and I haven't really seen him mention any of the "relatively newer" MMO's other than BDO a few times.
Edit: I guess I should add that I know there's going to be some action-combat abilities in AoC, but I'm wondering how they will play out, and how limited they are if at all?
Edit2: Better clarified thread summary in title
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If you were able to cast Prismatic Beam while moving, that would likely be overpowered.
As for the world building, that is a fundamental part of GuildWars 2 which is why you don't see it in other mmorpgs. You couldn't take the mechanics from GW2 and put them into WoW without changing the entire game.
I heard a bird ♫
I agree
Being rooted in place, or using some form of animation locking (i.e. Aion or TERA did this well) is important to balance combat but also to make it feel weighty and meaningful. GW2's combat is way too floaty and weightless. But more powerful skills need to have a drawback to make you think about using them and to balance out the fact that you're about to do a ton of damage.
Actually now that I think about it, plenty of skills in GW2 have a bit of this, usually via being locked into an animation that if cancelled, cancels the skill and the damage entirely. Sometimes the animation has you stationary, but some animations have you moving in some fashion - but that's still an animation lock because if you cancel or dodge out of that animation, it stops the rest of the damage the skill would otherwise do and puts it on CD.
I heard a bird ♫
I definitely understand how you feel. WoW was my first MMO and I played other various MMOs but most of my time has been with GW2. I feel GW2 has ruined any other MMO experience because of its hybrid combat which requires things like dodging to evade attacks and every class having healing abilities. I once went back to WoW and after a few days gave up because of not being able to dodge an attack or heal myself with a DPS class was just so unsatisfying.
More recently, I tried SWTOR and the pure tab targeting system was just too boring. The only other MMO so far to be any fun with its combat has been ESO. ESO's has been fun but not sure if it has longevity for me.. I am hoping AoC becomes the next big MMO I can sink my time into but only time will tell I guess....
Though if you can't stand WoW, but like GW2 then traditional MMO's just might not be the kind of game you like. I heard Fracture is kinda like GW2 in ways.
U.S. East
Much rather classes or builds can be set up like WoW for those players. Other builds less spells more action combat and can even play with controller like ESO combat full action.
did you try the tutorial for 2 minutes on a toaster of a pc ?
I'm not sure it's GW2 that you played lmfao. GW2 has the tightest movement in any MMO I've played.
The game even has air-strafing
You cant do 100% action combat.
From what i heard its limited to 75%
So people can have 75% of their skills Action and 25% tab target
or 75% tab target and 25% Action combat.
Off course you can match in between like 50/50 or 60/40 but never more then 75% of one.
I do agree with the WoW part.
Ashes is going to follow the Holy trinity system.
So every group will have at least 1 Tank and 1 Healer if they want to do group content.
If you cant deal with that, then AoC might not be for you.
Yea I saw that even before I made this post but don't know if "Action combat" just involves instant-casts or if it also includes "running while casting"-type abilities, which is what I'd prefer
Personally I'm very ok with the trinity system, I really enjoy dedicated roles. My GW2 Guardian I've tailored to be a healer ever since launch as well as I could.
I heard a bird ♫
Ok I'm not a massive fan of GW2's combat but it is in no way slow and clunky. It's honestly fast, smooth, and in my opinion way too floaty because it's so easy to move around and your character is always doing so. It could honestly benefit from being a tad bit more on the slow and clunky side LOL.
I think your definition of more fun is vastly different from mine. I think GW2's combat and in particular it's overly mobile nature made mass scale combat completely terrible and messy. Also it just trivializes so many decisions and strategies when you can just cast and run all the time.
I kinda disagree here. Maybe it is in fact too floaty but the biggest issue is boon-oriented fights. Too much stability/boon generation makes it feel unrewarding because your strategies are crushed by stacking classes which can generate too many boons all the time.
I heard a bird ♫
Well mass scale combat IS completely terrible (not as in bad) and messy. That's just going to happen no matter what.
I do see your point about trivializing decisions and stuff, and that's a valid concern, but even in GW2 there is still a lot of "you got caught in bad positioning" when running around and especially with the few stationary skills that do exist in that game.
That said, I still feel like the constant uptime and thinking that comes with mobile combat is greater than the negatives that stem from it, whereas a stationary-based combat requires a lot less of "playing the game" and a lot more of "doing nothing but waiting for spells to finish"
I think your definition of more fun is vastly different from mine. I think GW2's combat and in particular it's overly mobile nature made mass scale combat completely terrible and messy. Also it just trivializes so many decisions and strategies when you can just cast and run all the time.[/quote]
In large scale combat, for example with Node siege that has the potential to be 250 vs 250, if you want to be successful and not totally reliant on a pocket healer then you should want mobility. Take for example GW2 just a simple 30v30 how can you just stand and cast without getting ran over and die? So, then lets say you cast then move, cast then move cast then move...in a massive pvp battle...eh...sounds a little like pirate shipping. All I am saying is, when there is large scale PvP, you need mobile fast action to make it flow and be more fun, if you don't have it, then it gets clunky and slow. In a battle with 200+ players not counting incoming siege damage, to me it just seems obvious, you need mobile casting. Large scale battles are messy, target selection, position, spell/ability selection and movement are all key, not to mention strategy. I think if this game doesn't give the mobility of casting in PvP then it won't be fun and engaging. Just my opinion is all from a long time Pvper and someone who primarily enjoys PvP as endgame.
Positioning and risk doesn't get thrown out the window just because you aren't stuck in a position, it just changes the risks and counterplay.
Stationary casting combat in practice is, "lets both get into range and have an extreme version of a staring contest as we sit in place and cast at each other" while mobile combat is "Weaving in and out of range while keeping yourself in range for your own abilities"
You say this, but you're only thinking about it from the defenders perspective, you're not taking into account the attacker and their maneuvering and positioning.
I get the feeling you believe "mobile combat = constant kiting" and dodging, but it's just as aggressive as it is defensive.
Mobile combat is also just inherently more engaging, which in turn is more enjoyable.
More agency directly relates to more enjoyment.
I have a bit of a hyperbolic example, but it serves as a good analogy. You can't look at turn-based RPGs and say they are more engaging and more fun than action-adventure RPGs. Not to say turn-based games aren't fun games, but the actual combat itself is less fun than the actual combat of action-adventure games.
But still, the super long animations on the mage's fireball ability and the warriors weave ability really bother me. I do hope that they don't use long animations as the primary way to balance high dmg abilities.
If you wanna read it in more detail, here you go:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45454/combat-skill-animations-july-dev-update
hm I can agree about the fireball ability shown in the livestream...It is..not good. Long casting animation and weird ballerina moves so I kinda get you. Other than that, what others say is correct. Gotta wait till they tune the combat.
Well I brought it up in relation to a game with a well constructed and fully developed mobile combat system so people might have been able to more easily recognize how mobile combat and mobile skills play out
I 100% agree with this and talked about it on a reddit thread addressing the same issue. The animation looks too over-the-top, but people were saying it's just a placeholder animation for testing purposes, which makes sense.
I do sincerely hope that it's not one of your basic common-cast spells while also being stationary-cast
Edit: Because if it is, it's going to end up like playing priest in classic WoW. Spam-casting smite while the rogue jumps around you using his instant-cast abilities, and the only skill required by you is your ability to keep your camera facing towards him as he runs all around and through you so that when your cast goes off you don't have bad facing and fail the cast.
Combat is balanced around groups and roles, as is the TTK. You're going to have to rely on tanks, healers, and bards in PvP. It's not intended for you to be able to run around successfully in group PvP scenarios without having to rely on those roles. You can run around with a bunch of DPS friends, but know you'll be at a disadvantage.
Got this from https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills
Below is a quote from the big guy himself.
I think that that generally we want to tend to be more mobile in our classes. I think that it's a fundamentally old-school philosophy to have a lot of stuck in place type skills. That isn't to say we won't have skills that have mobility restriction on them- that require you to channel or require a casting time where you can't move; but I think it's a blend between the two. It's neither extreme.[124] – Steven Sharif
Oh snap, I feel so relieved to read this, and I wonder how I haven't seen this before. I had a fear that Intrepid would stick too hard to outdated mechanics, even outside of combat, but to see that Steven is thinking critically about these things instead of creating a game he wants just out of Nostalgia is a real boost of confidence in their ability to pull off a smooth blend of mechanics.
Edit: After reading some more of the quotes and just refreshing myself with general information on the wiki skills, I'm wondering if Action-combat skills will default to aim at your tab-target if you're in tab-target camera view the same way GW2 does, or if you NEED to be in reticle/third-person camera view to even use Action-combat skills?
Yes I suggest you read the second quote right under that and watch the associated video clip. What they say is what we've seen so far - and what most games do - and that's a mix of both stationary/animation locked skills and mobile skills. The more powerful skills will be more stationary or animation locked and others will be more mobile in order to keep a balance. Jeffrey makes a comment about offering risk vs reward here, like they do in most other aspects of the game. The good thing is you can spec however you want, but you won't be able to run and gun your most powerful skills. There would be a tradeoff if you want to go fully mobile for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPqLl_e3nxw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h17m13s
From what has been said, tab target skills are ones that require a skill in order to activate and action combat skills do not. Action skills are things like GtAoE, PbAoE, frontal cones, maybe a skill that places a damage area 10m or 20m in front of your character, so fixed location AoEs (I imagine the TERA Priest Restorative Burst skill when I hear this), etc. So action skills I don't think would automatically aim at anything - they are skills that require placement via a reticule as with a GtAoE, or via the player placing themselves in the right spot, as with the other 3. Although these could also easily be played in tab target mode as well (and indeed some tab target games have skills like this).
The question for me would be how do tab target skills work in action camera mode, or do they not work? My assumption is that they might auto target whoever your reticule is aiming at, but that might be a disadvantage compared to people in tab mode who can more precisely target who they want. I guess we'll see on that one.
Well in GW2 all skills are both tab-target and free-aim at the same time. Your auto attack that tracks your tab target is a linear projectile if you manually aim it. Many projectile moves that track the target can hit other enemies that are in the way instead too. This is what i was mostly referring to in my edit
As for the AoE stuff, that can easily be done in action cam. Both ESO and GW2 (if using action cam mode) allow reticle based action cam ground targeting.