Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

New Military Node Building: Theatre of Carnage

24

Comments

  • DemidreamerDemidreamer Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I've been daydreaming about a building like this too, just along different lines. I was more inclined to call the building a collosseum instead. Rather than just a plain arena, which i think AoC already had intentions of doing, i would rather see some type of sport. I guess i've been envisioning the Mayan sport Pok-ta-Pok with an AoC flare. Players would initially get the basic facility which would be created by the players. How?

    Create a various structures/obstacles that the Collosseum players/or(highest military official) could buy with resources gathered in the world. Collosseums are subject to change or stay the same if desired. Encouraging players to gather more materials in the open world to bring back to change their local collosseum.

    Also, I would like to add that the collosseum games travels from one military node to another(that has a collosseum) on a weekly basis further encouraging players to ever be migrating across the whole world of Verra. This would further encourage players travel and be active in the open world maybe even outside of their comfort zone.

    As for rewards. The fame is good enough for me and would be happy just to play.

    Should there be a need for a reward; then there should be risk also.
    -say if you lose your match should all of the losing team take exp. debt? should just the leader*(possably in a ranked game)? should just the weakest player take and exp debt?(this exp debt would again force players into the open world grind off again)
    -what would be an equal reward and how should such reward be divided amongst the winners? maybe experience gain and if you should have no exp debt, then a reward?

    Furthermore, what would a collosseum be without an audience not only would the players be able to enjoy the game but the local population could come watch, wager bets, insult, cheer, heckle, enter a game etc.

    *In Aztec culture I read that the leader would lose his life after losing a game.
    I also remember being taught in school that pretty much all the players were subject to death for a poor performance. not sure how true this last one is..
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    ... What? Then are you saying bounty hunters go against the spirit of the game since they will be the ones focused on hunting down corrupted players?
    No, I'm saying bounty hunters are not going to expect to gear up from killing corrupt players.

    Not every corrupt player is going to drop an item, and most people that gain corruption regularly are likely going to hold on to random trash items in their inventory that have as much of a chance of dropping as any useful item they may be using.

    Why wouldn't Bounty hunters be able to gear up from this? If thats your WHOLE issue with the idea just make the arena gear have the same percentage chance to trash as if the player was corrupted. There now you cant complain anymore.

    That is getting close.

    You also have the fact that with bounty hunters, the bulk of the corrupt players they kill won't drop any items at all, and finding and killing a corrupt player for a bounty hunter will be significantly less frequent than a player killing another in an arena.

    The thing is, that very rare item that drops is the incentive to get these players out in the open world. Even if a bounty hunter only sees one such item a week (which is probably only slightly unrealistic, I would assume 2 - 3 would be average for an active bounty hunter), that is still an incentive.

    If you allow that same number of items to be in the arena, then the incentive for that player to be out in the open world while the arena is running is gone - and open world should always have the incentive over instances.

    So, if a bounty hunter out in the open world for 15 hours a week sees 3 items drop in that week, that means they see an item every 5 hours.

    Since this arena needs to be less of an incentive than being out in the open world, that means one item every 10 hours of fighting. If a fight takes 15 minutes, that means one item every 40 fights.

    Now, obviously I may be out with my assumptions on how often a bounty hunter will see items drop - that is to be expected with blind assumptions. If it turns out that they see items drop at twice that rate on average, then the items in the arena should drop at twice the rate listed.

    However, this arena should not result in participants seeing higher return for time spent than a bounty hunter in the open world would expect to see.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    ... What? Then are you saying bounty hunters go against the spirit of the game since they will be the ones focused on hunting down corrupted players?
    No, I'm saying bounty hunters are not going to expect to gear up from killing corrupt players.

    Not every corrupt player is going to drop an item, and most people that gain corruption regularly are likely going to hold on to random trash items in their inventory that have as much of a chance of dropping as any useful item they may be using.

    Why wouldn't Bounty hunters be able to gear up from this? If thats your WHOLE issue with the idea just make the arena gear have the same percentage chance to trash as if the player was corrupted. There now you cant complain anymore.

    That is getting close.

    You also have the fact that with bounty hunters, the bulk of the corrupt players they kill won't drop any items at all, and finding and killing a corrupt player for a bounty hunter will be significantly less frequent than a player killing another in an arena.

    The thing is, that very rare item that drops is the incentive to get these players out in the open world. Even if a bounty hunter only sees one such item a week (which is probably only slightly unrealistic, I would assume 2 - 3 would be average for an active bounty hunter), that is still an incentive.

    If you allow that same number of items to be in the arena, then the incentive for that player to be out in the open world while the arena is running is gone - and open world should always have the incentive over instances.

    So, if a bounty hunter out in the open world for 15 hours a week sees 3 items drop in that week, that means they see an item every 5 hours.

    Since this arena needs to be less of an incentive than being out in the open world, that means one item every 10 hours of fighting. If a fight takes 15 minutes, that means one item every 40 fights.

    Now, obviously I may be out with my assumptions on how often a bounty hunter will see items drop - that is to be expected with blind assumptions. If it turns out that they see items drop at twice that rate on average, then the items in the arena should drop at twice the rate listed.

    However, this arena should not result in participants seeing higher return for time spent than a bounty hunter in the open world would expect to see.

    Already addressed the issue of "farming" these arenas. The way I have suggested it to be is a single arena with set match times that cycle through the different types of fights. The gear dropping is just a bonus the real objective here is the thrill of structured pvp in front of many people betting for or against your team.

    You go on paragraph after paragraph here explaining how bounty hunting will not be as profitable but then at the end say this is only an assumption? If its only an assumption and not concrete that means there are ways to finetune it before it is fully released. This means your argument holds no weight whatsoever. This is literally your make-believe dad is stronger than my make-believe dad. Jesus.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    You go on paragraph after paragraph here explaining how bounty hunting will not be as profitable but then at the end say this is only an assumption? If its only an assumption and not concrete that means there are ways to finetune it before it is fully released. This means your argument holds no weight whatsoever. This is literally your make-believe dad is stronger than my make-believe dad. Jesus.

    Of course it is only an assumption. That is an inherent issue with using actual numbers. We don't know enough about the game to talk about literally anything using numbers - all numbers are able to do is assist in illustrating concepts and ideas that we are talking about - and concepts and ideas are all we are able to talk about.

    The numbers given were there to illustrate to you what I would consider an acceptable drop rate - and to also illustrate to you exactly how that drop rate should - in my opinion - tie in to the only thing that should have an impact on it - the expected drop rate of items when killing corrupt players.

    Farming an arena like this isn't the issue I am talking about. If it were farmable, the concept would be so far from reality that I wouldn't have even bothered commenting on it (I don't comment on things that I consider too far from the concept of the game, or on things that I consider perfectly fine, but that I am not personally overly enthused about).

    My concern isn't about players farming it to get their gear, it is about it being more rewarding than open world PvP could be. It should not offer more rewards per hour than bounty hunting, even if players can only participate in it for 15 minutes a day.
  • Will always vote for a betting-enabled arena.

    Not sure if the full-loot part is necessary though, as most ppl (except the most wealthy or confident players) would just bring the most cost-efficient gear , which probably won't provide much progression for the winner.

    Well the winner can always sell the loot though ...

    Letting the winner take a cut of the betting pool might also be a good idea. This could motivate ppl to participate, and incentivize them to be more obsessed with winning, therefore encouraging them to take bigger risks and bring higher tier gear into the arena (more lootz).
  • I've been daydreaming about a building like this too, just along different lines. I was more inclined to call the building a collosseum instead. Rather than just a plain arena, which i think AoC already had intentions of doing, i would rather see some type of sport. I guess i've been envisioning the Mayan sport Pok-ta-Pok with an AoC flare. Players would initially get the basic facility which would be created by the players. How?

    Create a various structures/obstacles that the Collosseum players/or(highest military official) could buy with resources gathered in the world. Collosseums are subject to change or stay the same if desired. Encouraging players to gather more materials in the open world to bring back to change their local collosseum.

    Also, I would like to add that the collosseum games travels from one military node to another(that has a collosseum) on a weekly basis further encouraging players to ever be migrating across the whole world of Verra. This would further encourage players travel and be active in the open world maybe even outside of their comfort zone.

    As for rewards. The fame is good enough for me and would be happy just to play.

    Should there be a need for a reward; then there should be risk also.
    -say if you lose your match should all of the losing team take exp. debt? should just the leader*(possably in a ranked game)? should just the weakest player take and exp debt?(this exp debt would again force players into the open world grind off again)
    -what would be an equal reward and how should such reward be divided amongst the winners? maybe experience gain and if you should have no exp debt, then a reward?

    Furthermore, what would a collosseum be without an audience not only would the players be able to enjoy the game but the local population could come watch, wager bets, insult, cheer, heckle, enter a game etc.

    *In Aztec culture I read that the leader would lose his life after losing a game.
    I also remember being taught in school that pretty much all the players were subject to death for a poor performance. not sure how true this last one is..

    Stuff like this would make the game very interesting. Imagine traveling a ways away from your home node to a military node to watch the fights at the coliseum that only take place a few times every month. People would train for it and teams would develop strategy and you could even introduce some 20v20 group stuff or something. People could make names for themselves as really good PvPers in the coliseum.

    Really cool ideas in this thread. Love the idea demi.
  • Killing a corrupted is like being a kind bully.
    I like the idea of arenas were you get to drop your own gear.
    Betting system is totally floored as Noaani pointed out.
    I tell you what i know about Dwarf's.
    Very little
  • Killing a corrupted is like being a kind bully.
    I like the idea of arenas were you get to drop your own gear.
    Betting system is totally floored as Noaani pointed out.

    Betting system is floored out? What do you mean by that?
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited October 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »
    "Betting system is totally *flawed* as Noaani pointed out."

    Betting system is floored out? What do you mean by that?

    Appears to just be a typo - have corrected for you
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    "Betting system is totally *flawed* as Noaani pointed out."

    Betting system is floored out? What do you mean by that?

    Appears to just be a typo - have corrected for you

    Thanks.

    Now, I honestly don't see why the gambling part of the suggestion is flawed. Perhaps I don't have specific values and exact mechanics but that is what can be worked on. The idea of having an arena where the hardcore players go to kill each other while other players can watch the blood sport and bet on who will win. That's what I want feedback on.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    The idea of having an arena where the hardcore players go to kill each other while other players can watch the blood sport and bet on who will win. That's what I want feedback on.

    I think it sounds awesome!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Now, I honestly don't see why the gambling part of the suggestion is flawed.
    It makes it too easy for players to transfer money in one direction. If there is a trade that takes place that is clearly one sided, that is something that is easy to flag for someone at Intrepid to look in to.

    Intrepid are setting up many systems in the game to watch out for suspicious behavior in order to catch RMT and other such things. A system like this would be virtually impossible to monitor.

    They can't rely on players reporting things in, that straight up isn't reliable.

    Gambling based on pure chance is something that is ok to add to the game, but a system where you are gambling based on the outcome of something that players are very easily able to influence is not.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    It makes it too easy for players to transfer money in one direction. If there is a trade that takes place that is clearly one sided, that is something that is easy to flag for someone at Intrepid to look in to.

    Plenty of gambling institutions have a maximum limit on wagers. No reason for this one to be any different. Put it low enough that gold sellers are going to have a tough time moving amounts of cash, but just high enough that there's a reason to place the bet in the first place.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Now, I honestly don't see why the gambling part of the suggestion is flawed.
    It makes it too easy for players to transfer money in one direction. If there is a trade that takes place that is clearly one sided, that is something that is easy to flag for someone at Intrepid to look in to.

    Intrepid are setting up many systems in the game to watch out for suspicious behavior in order to catch RMT and other such things. A system like this would be virtually impossible to monitor.

    They can't rely on players reporting things in, that straight up isn't reliable.

    Gambling based on pure chance is something that is ok to add to the game, but a system where you are gambling based on the outcome of something that players are very easily able to influence is not.

    May as well just remove trading with other players then. Come on dude, is this really your best argument?
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Now, I honestly don't see why the gambling part of the suggestion is flawed.
    It makes it too easy for players to transfer money in one direction. If there is a trade that takes place that is clearly one sided, that is something that is easy to flag for someone at Intrepid to look in to.

    Intrepid are setting up many systems in the game to watch out for suspicious behavior in order to catch RMT and other such things. A system like this would be virtually impossible to monitor.

    They can't rely on players reporting things in, that straight up isn't reliable.

    Gambling based on pure chance is something that is ok to add to the game, but a system where you are gambling based on the outcome of something that players are very easily able to influence is not.

    May as well just remove trading with other players then. Come on dude, is this really your best argument?

    A number of games do exactly this, and for exactly this reason.

    However, it isn't that hard to put a trigger on trading so that one sided trades are flagged for Intrepid to look at to see if they look suspicious. That way, accounts that are always trading high value trades to other accounts will be quite obvious.

    This can't be done with gambling though.
  • Noaani wrote: »

    A number of games do exactly this, and for exactly this reason.

    However, it isn't that hard to put a trigger on trading so that one sided trades are flagged for Intrepid to look at to see if they look suspicious. That way, accounts that are always trading high value trades to other accounts will be quite obvious.

    This can't be done with gambling though.

    Yes and those games are garbage in comparison to many others.

    This can absolutely be done with gambling by setting values for the amount that can be bet. This can be calculated by the teams rank and the difference of it with their opponents. With the limiter of how many people can be in the arena at any time, the real profit starts to come in once you gain fans and rank. The higher your rank the more renown you will have among players and the more likely people will come to place bets on your team winning.

    Now, with all that going on, do you honestly believe RMTing will get past the eyes of actual players watching a fight? Do you think they will easily be able to throw a fight to hand over tons of gold to other players without getting investigated?

    Lets say the worst case scenario happens where a high rank player loses to a low rank player and a ton of gold flows to the low ranker. Thats a flag and can be quickly investigated. They check logs and see if any RMT talk happened and if not welp, theres not much you can do in this VERY rare case.

    Again, this sort of situation would rarely happen due to the social interaction with fans. This whole thing requires fans to come watch and bet for it to truly be profitable. The gear dropping on death is just an added bonus.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    A number of games do exactly this, and for exactly this reason.

    However, it isn't that hard to put a trigger on trading so that one sided trades are flagged for Intrepid to look at to see if they look suspicious. That way, accounts that are always trading high value trades to other accounts will be quite obvious.

    This can't be done with gambling though.

    Yes and those games are garbage in comparison to many others.
    There are a good number of people on these forums that would argue that GW2 is in fact a good game.
    This can absolutely be done with gambling by setting values for the amount that can be bet. This can be calculated by the teams rank and the difference of it with their opponents. With the limiter of how many people can be in the arena at any time, the real profit starts to come in once you gain fans and rank. The higher your rank the more renown you will have among players and the more likely people will come to place bets on your team winning.

    Now, with all that going on, do you honestly believe RMTing will get past the eyes of actual players watching a fight? Do you think they will easily be able to throw a fight to hand over tons of gold to other players without getting investigated?

    Lets say the worst case scenario happens where a high rank player loses to a low rank player and a ton of gold flows to the low ranker. Thats a flag and can be quickly investigated. They check logs and see if any RMT talk happened and if not welp, theres not much you can do in this VERY rare case.

    Again, this sort of situation would rarely happen due to the social interaction with fans. This whole thing requires fans to come watch and bet for it to truly be profitable. The gear dropping on death is just an added bonus.
    Your entire premise is 100% dependent on the notion that this system will be popular and remain popular, in every single node that has this building.

    That isn't going to be the case.

    The worst case scenario isn't where a high rank player does anything at all with a low ranked player, the worst case scenario is when a player controlled by a RMT company goes up against a player controlled by a RMT client.

    Even if there was a flagging system in place, Intrepid would have no ability to prevent players from fixing matches even if RMT is not involved. As soon as players do this (which they will, and Intrepid would have to allow), there is literally no difference between players organizing a fixed fight and players participating in RMT.

    So, I can think of two things that are immediately worse than your supposed worst case scenario.

    Again, gambling between players in any way that isn't 100% random is a bad idea. Players absolutely will game any system they can.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited October 2020
    You're whole argument comes down to this: "Durr the dev team is too stu-stu-stupid to come up with solutions to make this work. Durrr"

    tenor.gif?itemid=13707865

    This. This is what you make me think of when you argue against a system that has no set mechanics and mostly an idea behind it.

    The game is supposed to be a realization of a progressed mmo that is not tied down by old stigmas and limiters set by the predecessors. Are there going to be issues with the system ? OF COURSE! but that doesnt mean you throw the whole idea out the window. This game wants to build something more, and to toss away ideas because of some malicious players seems like a recipe for disaster.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    You're whole argument comes down to this: "Durr the dev team is too stu-stu-stupid to come up with solutions to make this work. Durrr".
    Nope, it comes down to it is too much oversight to make it viable.
    The game is supposed to be a realization of a progressed mmo that is not tied down by old stigmas and limiters set by the predecessors. Are there going to be issues with the system ? OF COURSE! but that doesnt mean you throw the whole idea out the window. This game wants to build something more, and to toss away ideas because of some malicious players seems like a recipe for disaster.
    I never said to throw the whole idea out the window, just the gear and gambling aspects of it.

    If you go back through the thread, I actually said I like the rest of it as an idea.

    While Ashes is absolutely attempting to push the MMO genre forward, that doesn't mean you can just throw out the applicable knowledge that others have gathered.

    I mean, Tesla are looking at revolutionizing the automobile industry - yet they are still using the same tyres as other cars, because that makes sense.
  • The gambling and the loot drop distinguish it from the standard arena that is already supposed to be in the game. There is literally no reason for me to suggest this if we take them out. The tire example is poor. This suggestion is not a core part of the game like a car using tires. Its a niche building that people can choose to interact with and has little to no impact on any of the current designs for pvp in the game other than offering yet another way to do it.

    The problem here is that you tirelessly argue a point like this and circle-jerk reasons for its failure. If i address your problem you blurt out another problem and if I address that one you bring up an old problem that i have already answered.

    If anything is like a tire here, it's you.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »
    The tire example is poor.

    You obviously missed the point.

    Tesla are not using triangle wheels on their cars, because it is known that round wheels are superior.

    Game developers do not allow systems in game for players to gamble on non-random events with each other, because it is known that players will game that system.

    And yes, there is always another point - I haven't even given you the biggest, most obvious reason as to why this idea simply will not work in an MMORPG.
  • SnyxSnyx Member
    edited October 2020
    Noaani wrote: »

    Another aspect that your suggestion doesn't really answer is the fact that the developers don't want players able to gear up via PvP. Even the games greatest agents of change (PvP players) will still need to run PvE content in order to get gear with which to facilitate the change that they are agents of. You can gain general wealth (in the form of raw materials) through PvP, and the occasional random piece of gear via killing corrupt players, but you can't actually gear up via PvP. This is something Intrepid have outright stated that they want, so is not conjecture or opinion on my part.

    Pretty sure from Steven saying you can do whatever you want in the game, progress whichever way you want means that PVP only will still be a viable way of progression. You are claiming PVP players are not supposed to get geared through PVP and will be forced to do PVE but as a PVP player I can do only pvp content, kill other players, caravans, etc. and get rich from it. With the money earned through various PVP content I can buy top of the charts gear from crafters, because as stated multiple times, gear crafted by players will be as strong as dropped gear. That pretty much trashes the gear argument you have against his idea.

    The only decent argument you have against this overall great idea from Sathrago is the gambling which can be abused by RMT however that can easily be balanced with set bets/odds making it not worth while for RMT to abuse.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2020
    Snyx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Another aspect that your suggestion doesn't really answer is the fact that the developers don't want players able to gear up via PvP. Even the games greatest agents of change (PvP players) will still need to run PvE content in order to get gear with which to facilitate the change that they are agents of. You can gain general wealth (in the form of raw materials) through PvP, and the occasional random piece of gear via killing corrupt players, but you can't actually gear up via PvP. This is something Intrepid have outright stated that they want, so is not conjecture or opinion on my part.

    Pretty sure from Steven saying you can do whatever you want in the game, progress whichever way you want means that PVP only will still be a viable way of progression.
    You should do some more looking in to the game.

    Steven is fairly clear on not wanting PvP to be a viable progression path by itself. Just as PvE players can't avoid PvP (it is forced on them), PvP players can't avoid PvE (it is needed for progression).

    You can disagree with me all you want, that won't change the design intention of the game.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »

    Why wouldn't Bounty hunters be able to gear up from this?
    While a bounty hunter may occasionally catch a piece of gear that is actually useful rather than needing to sell, it is not realistic for a bounty hunter to assume that a full set of gear would be obtainable from bounty hunting alone; or, that gear would be fully replaced by bounty hunting as needed when higher level gear is needed.
    Sathrago wrote: »
    If thats your WHOLE issue with the idea just make the arena gear have the same percentage chance to trash as if the player was corrupted. There now you cant complain anymore.

    To obtain that trash gear, it would need to drop off of a player who probably wouldn't take it into the arena if they could lose it.

    Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6](Podcast with Steven in 2018)
    It sounds like a very strong set of arguments supporting gear being purchased in Arenas could get some version of that introduced.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

    There will already be a type of gear improvement from arenas.
    Progression in various PvP systems will unlock enchantment stones that grant temporary PvP-focused benefits to gear (via a socketing system).[128] Performance is measured over six month PvP seasons.[125]
    Guild wars.[128]
    Arenas.[128]
    Caravan PvP.[128]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Gear_enhancement_rewards

    Also, "Arena style combat is instanced but spectators may be possible through an interface.[9]"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

    I haven't gone through your design, but this looks like the relevant information to work from while creating your gearing system. I also want to confirm that Steven does want to make sure players need to use both PvE and PvP.
    "It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[8]" (Livestream with Steven, 2017)
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear

  • While a bounty hunter may occasionally catch a piece of gear that is actually useful rather than needing to sell, it is not realistic for a bounty hunter to assume that a full set of gear would be obtainable from bounty hunting alone; or, that gear would be fully replaced by bounty hunting as needed when higher level gear is needed.

    Yes, but a bounty hunter risks nothing but the combatant's death penalties when they go out to kill corrupted players. Unless im missing something, where as my suggestion has both parties risking *all* of the gear. Meaning it is High risk High reward in a consensual pvp setting rather than an open world scenario that can be exploited by bringing in combatants to help a bounty hunter kill a corrupted player.

    I guess my point is that the bounty hunter may get less gear per player, but they risk much less compared to the system I have suggested and are not limited by time constraints and location restraints as harshly as my arena. They can hunt corrupted players anywhere once they get the bounty hunter status from a military node and can form ganking parties to specifically outnumber corrupted players by either bringing more BHs or inviting nearby random players to help. This is while risking half the penalties of a normal non-combatant player.


    To obtain that trash gear, it would need to drop off of a player who probably wouldn't take it into the arena if they could lose it.

    Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6](Podcast with Steven in 2018)
    It sounds like a very strong set of arguments supporting gear being purchased in Arenas could get some version of that introduced.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

    Progression in various PvP systems will unlock enchantment stones that grant temporary PvP-focused benefits to gear (via a socketing system).[128] Performance is measured over six month PvP seasons.[125]
    Guild wars.[128]
    Arenas.[128]
    Caravan PvP.[128]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Gear_enhancement_rewards
    Well, to be honest I didn't intend on it being apart of that system but I could see why it might need to be introduced to it. I would be fine with it giving cosmetics instead as its not really a form of pvp that can be spammed repeatedly but rather a contest that can happen every now and then that allows the more hardcore players to smash each other to death for the enjoyment of the viewers, potential fame and fortune.
    There will already be a type of gear improvement from arenas.
    Also, "Arena style combat is instanced but spectators may be possible through an interface.[9]"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
    Yeah the plan would be to have a single building that was not instanced for viewers to come and sit in to watch the fights. This is one of the main reasons why the title for this thread was "Murder Pits" as i didn't want people to get confused with me wanting to change the plans for the current arena system.
    I haven't gone through your design, but this looks like the relevant information to work from while creating your gearing system. I also want to confirm that Steven does want to make sure players need to use both PvE and PvP.
    "It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[8]" (Livestream with Steven, 2017)
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear
    Interesting, I believe i have heard this somewhere myself and this did give me a few rough ideas... However I believe this is not a system that can be used to gear up your character. It may give some gear but like was pointed out recently the enemy will do various things that will reduce your winnings such as wearing worse gear, having gear that you will only be able to sell, and the last type would be bringing a stupid good set of gear and crushing you with it. Now if you get lucky and end up killing someone with better gear then all the better. I don't feel like this will happen often enough to make it an issue however.

    Sorry I got off track, let me tell you about the ideas i had. If they really wish for there to be a pve element, We could mix into these fights random elite creatures instead of players that can be fought for... you thought id say resources right? Nah son! They would give you a trophy that can be used to increase the certificates or experience (your choice) from killing creatures of that same race for an extended amount of time. This could maybe even be a trophy that you can place inside an inn for players to get a very minor bonus when visiting and gazing upon the trophy at your place.

    This would create more incentive to sign up for these arena fights as you dont know if you will get a monster or a player until a little bit of time before the fight, then once you win against a creature you get something that promotes going out into the world for PvE content.

    How does that sound?

    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited October 2020
    Updating the original post with some ideas that I have recently talked about/thought of.

    Original post:
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Murder Pits, a nasty name for a building that you could potentially build in your node to bring on the most hardcore of meta-pvpers to beat the crap out of each other for fat loot. The idea is a gladiatorial arena where you can have 1v1/2v2/4v4/8v8 matches where you have full loot pvp, as well as a stadium for people to come to watch and gamble their gold away on who will win in each fight. The fighters themselves can also bet on their respective teams and winner takes the enemy teams loot and the prize pool of gold that was bet on the fight.

    Thoughts, comments, and suggestions are all welcome. Don't be shy!

    Edit: The arena would set up matches at specific times of the day and random teams would be chosen to fight in the match. After signing up players would wait to see if they were chosen. These matches would be organized for specific times each day giving prior notice to all players that were accepted. If a player does not show up for the Initial call then another team will be chosen. This will repeat until 10 minutes are left. If no team arrives to fill the gap then the match will default to fighting powerful elite monsters.

    Possible addition would be to add in a random chance that a team of players is not chosen and instead powerful elite monsters could be chosen. Death to a monster will not cause you to lose your gear but you will suffer all the effects of a normal combatant's death.

    Defeating one of these arena encounters with the elite monsters would drop a trophy that could provide a bonus to gaining certificates or experience when hunting creatures of its race. This could be a one use item with a set duration as well as a material for a full trophy that could be put on display in a home or tavern/inn that can grant those that gaze upon it with a minor bonus to hunting creatures of its race.

    Gambling values would be determined by the ranking difference of each team as well as how high both ranks are. A lower ranked team will naturally have a lower odds of winning and vice versa. These values are set and should be worked on to avoid any RMT shenanigans. Additionally, the winning party will gain a percentage of all winnings as a reward for defeating the enemy they were given.

    Betting on fights with elite monsters will be a set value for the type of fight and the winnings will be a set value as well. If the players fail to defeat the elite monsters all bets will be taken as taxes for the node this building resides in.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    While a bounty hunter may occasionally catch a piece of gear that is actually useful rather than needing to sell, it is not realistic for a bounty hunter to assume that a full set of gear would be obtainable from bounty hunting alone; or, that gear would be fully replaced by bounty hunting as needed when higher level gear is needed.

    Yes, but a bounty hunter risks nothing but the combatant's death penalties when they go out to kill corrupted players. Unless im missing something, where as my suggestion has both parties risking *all* of the gear. Meaning it is High risk High reward in a consensual pvp setting rather than an open world scenario that can be exploited by bringing in combatants to help a bounty hunter kill a corrupted player.

    I guess my point is that the bounty hunter may get less gear per player, but they risk much less compared to the system I have suggested and are not limited by time constraints and location restraints as harshly as my arena. They can hunt corrupted players anywhere once they get the bounty hunter status from a military node and can form ganking parties to specifically outnumber corrupted players by either bringing more BHs or inviting nearby random players to help. This is while risking half the penalties of a normal non-combatant player.


    To obtain that trash gear, it would need to drop off of a player who probably wouldn't take it into the arena if they could lose it.

    Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6](Podcast with Steven in 2018)
    It sounds like a very strong set of arguments supporting gear being purchased in Arenas could get some version of that introduced.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

    Progression in various PvP systems will unlock enchantment stones that grant temporary PvP-focused benefits to gear (via a socketing system).[128] Performance is measured over six month PvP seasons.[125]
    Guild wars.[128]
    Arenas.[128]
    Caravan PvP.[128]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Gear_enhancement_rewards
    Well, to be honest I didn't intend on it being apart of that system but I could see why it might need to be introduced to it. I would be fine with it giving cosmetics instead as its not really a form of pvp that can be spammed repeatedly but rather a contest that can happen every now and then that allows the more hardcore players to smash each other to death for the enjoyment of the viewers, potential fame and fortune.
    There will already be a type of gear improvement from arenas.
    Also, "Arena style combat is instanced but spectators may be possible through an interface.[9]"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
    Yeah the plan would be to have a single building that was not instanced for viewers to come and sit in to watch the fights. This is one of the main reasons why the title for this thread was "Murder Pits" as i didn't want people to get confused with me wanting to change the plans for the current arena system.
    I haven't gone through your design, but this looks like the relevant information to work from while creating your gearing system. I also want to confirm that Steven does want to make sure players need to use both PvE and PvP.
    "It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[8]" (Livestream with Steven, 2017)
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear
    Interesting, I believe i have heard this somewhere myself and this did give me a few rough ideas... However I believe this is not a system that can be used to gear up your character. It may give some gear but like was pointed out recently the enemy will do various things that will reduce your winnings such as wearing worse gear, having gear that you will only be able to sell, and the last type would be bringing a stupid good set of gear and crushing you with it. Now if you get lucky and end up killing someone with better gear then all the better. I don't feel like this will happen often enough to make it an issue however.

    Sorry I got off track, let me tell you about the ideas i had. If they really wish for there to be a pve element, We could mix into these fights random elite creatures instead of players that can be fought for... you thought id say resources right? Nah son! They would give you a trophy that can be used to increase the certificates or experience (your choice) from killing creatures of that same race for an extended amount of time. This could maybe even be a trophy that you can place inside an inn for players to get a very minor bonus when visiting and gazing upon the trophy at your place.

    This would create more incentive to sign up for these arena fights as you dont know if you will get a monster or a player until a little bit of time before the fight, then once you win against a creature you get something that promotes going out into the world for PvE content.

    How does that sound?

    Liking this idea even less than the original idea (which I am still behind, other than the gear and gambling aspects).

    What you have now are the makings of an arena style game, rather than a feature of an open world MMORPG.
  • Noaani wrote: »

    Steven is fairly clear on not wanting PvP to be a viable progression path by itself. Just as PvE players can't avoid PvP (it is forced on them), PvP players can't avoid PvE (it is needed for progression).

    You can disagree with me all you want, that won't change the design intention of the game.

    It's funny cause this is the second time you mention that I'm new and I should look more into the game, just because my forum account is new it doesn't mean I haven't been following for a very long while. Pretty much every counter argument you have to anything posted on the forum is that "it's not the intention of the game" I'm not sure about everyone here but I watched every developer update/letter/post and I have a pretty good idea what the intent of the game is, so you'll need a better counter argument. I'm not sure why you say Steven was fairly clear on not wanting PVP to be a viable progression by itself because as far as I know he never said that (please link me the video/quote if he did) he did however say you can progress however you want in the game. What i said in my previous reply still stands regardless, do you disagree that I can progress in the game that way? getting rich from PVP and buying gear from players focused on crafting?

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2020
    Snyx wrote: »
    Pretty much every counter argument you have to anything posted on the forum is that "it's not the intention of the game" I'm not sure about everyone here but I watched every developer update/letter/post and I have a pretty good idea what the intent of the game is
    Cool.

    So, show me one confirmed situation where you can PvP for an item (weapon, armor or accessory) of your choice.

    I don't offer up links to people that just ask for them, I wait until they are fully committed to their error.

    So, commit.

  • Noaani wrote: »
    Cool.

    So, show me one confirmed situation where you can PvP for an item (weapon, armor or accessory) of your choice.

    I don't offer up links to people that just ask for them, I wait until they are fully committed to their error.

    So, commit.
    I already laid out a scenario above, you pvp for caravans, that brings you income - clearly confirmed by Steven. The income you use to buy gear from crafters which can craft gear as strong as gear dropped from PVE- clearly confirmed by Steven.

    Is that a way to play the game or not?

    I didn't ask you for a link to help me, I asked you to prove your point where Steven said that he clearly does not want PVP only to be a way of progression.

    I think you should check one of the latest Q&A where he said that the game is planned in such a way so it lets you progress whichever way you want. It take character to admit when wrong ;).


Sign In or Register to comment.