"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
@Noaani
Can't see a particular section that prohibits betting systems for in-game currencies. I won't bother asking you to link me the law/rule, cos I know you're a bit touchy about links.
So, you're saying that, with this new ruling, if I load up Star Trek Online again, I won't be able to play Dabo any more?
So, you're saying that, with this new ruling, if I load up Star Trek Online again, I won't be able to play Dabo any more?
Nope, I am saying that there is a difference between gambling that involves randomization and gambling that involves actions of people.
In many countries, gambling involving randomization is perfectly legal in almost all situations, and gambling that involves other peoples actions is not legal in any situation. In most countries though, there are set lists of actions that can be gambled on (almost exclusively sports), and if something is not on that list, it can not be gambled on legally.
The gambling in STO is purely random, the gambling suggested here would not be.
So, you're saying that, with this new ruling, if I load up Star Trek Online again, I won't be able to play Dabo any more?
Nope, I am saying that there is a difference between gambling that involves randomization and gambling that involves actions of people.
In many countries, gambling involving randomization is perfectly legal in almost all situations, and gambling that involves other peoples actions is not legal in any situation. In most countries though, there are set lists of actions that can be gambled on (almost exclusively sports), and if something is not on that list, it can not be gambled on legally.
The gambling in STO is purely random, the gambling suggested here would not be.
But... it is random? The only reason you say it isnt is because once in a blue moon someone could potentially fight someone they are in cahoots with. This is such a small chance that it makes you look like you are grasping at straws now.
This post has been revised many times so I will try to consolidate and pair off the different types of ideas to make it easier for new people to get in on the conversation.
General Idea:
I would like for there to be an optional building that can be placed within military nodes, possibly economic nodes too, where players can sign up to fight in a blood sport against other players. These fights will either be solo vs solo or group vs group. This battle will be to the death and all gear will drop for the winning team to loot as a reward. Other players will have the ability to bet on who will win the fight while watching from the stands. The winning team will gain a percentage of all bets cast while also increasing their ranking within the Murder Pits.
Alternative Building Names:
Theatre of Carnage
Colosseum
Matchmaking Mechanics:
These Murder Pit matches will have set times that can be signed up for spread throughout a day. A team will sign up for a time slot and a moderate amount of time before then the system will alert the players of each team to show up. If they do not accept the invite a new team is chosen. This repeats until a match is found or the time limit is reached. If a match is not made in time there will be no fight. Players that sign up for a timeslot should be heavily punished in rankings (or some other form) for skipping out on a fight they have signed up for.
Battle Mechanics:
The team sizes currently suggested are, 1v1, 2v2, 4v4, 8v8. Using 8 as the standard adventuring party I split down from there. I have no other real reason for the team sizes than that.
When a Team is defeated their gear will drop for the enemy players to loot but in a damaged state that will require repairing before it can be used.
There are no plans for any traps, mechanisms or terrain within the murder pits. a bowl of sand, broken teeth, and blood is my current suggestion.
Gambling Mechanics:
When a fight is announced other players can come to watch the fun and choose to bet on which team will win. (possibly a minor fee to enter)
My current suggestion is to have the amount you can bet be determined strictly by the system after calculating difference in ranking and item level of the two teams.
Taxes should be applied appropriately to generate funds for the Node itself.
Other Suggestions:
Instead of it always being a random enemy team we could also mix in elite monsters/npcs as part of the queue. These would have different rules than your standard pvp fights. Firstly, players would not drop their gear should they fail to beat the monster. If the npc wins the percentage that would normally go to a winning player will instead go to the Node.
Expanding on the previous idea, instead of an AI as an opponent we could instead use monster tokens or even animal husbandry to create monsters to fight with. This would work similar to the champion idea that was mentioned for the Battle Royale mayor choosing competition. You would have an npc or monster that can be geared out or augmented the higher your rankings.
When defeating either an npc monster or a player controlled monster they could drop a Race Token. A Race Token would be a consumable item that, for a period of time, grants the player a bonus to certificate drops or experience when hunting creatures of that specific monster's race. Additionally this token could possibly be used as part of a crafting recipe to create Trophy Stands. A Trophy Stand would be a taxidermized version of the monster slain that when placed in a house or other building, players would be able to gaze upon it and gain a small boon. This boon would give them a minor bonus to experience, certificates, or damage/defense against that monster's race for a decent amount of time. These trophies would work similarly to food buffs that have been talked about previously.
(If you have any suggestions post them below and ill add it to the list here)
Don't forget to like the post and share with your friends if you like these ideas!
Original post has been revised a bit more. Don't forget to like it to show your support!
@Noaani I was talking to some people on the discord and someone suggested having the gambled winnings convert into a bound currency. I dont know how well this would work in a player driven economy and im not sure what you could buy in the game via npcs.
Noaani I was talking to some people on the discord and someone suggested having the gambled winnings convert into a bound currency. I dont know how well this would work in a player driven economy and im not sure what you could buy in the game via npcs.
I was reading into the current legislation surrounding 'Virtual Currency Gambling' (yeah yeah, I know.... ), and it appears that because of the prevalence of Gold Sellers in games like this, they treat it as a normal gambling system that requires licensing, as it can be turned into RL cash. One more reason to hate the Gold Sellers, I suppose!
Anyway, some form of Bound Currency, however that would/could be implemented, may get around that.
However, it's probably just easier to remove the gambling aspect and just focus on the bragging rights!
Noaani I was talking to some people on the discord and someone suggested having the gambled winnings convert into a bound currency. I dont know how well this would work in a player driven economy and im not sure what you could buy in the game via npcs.
I was reading into the current legislation surrounding 'Virtual Currency Gambling' (yeah yeah, I know.... ), and it appears that because of the prevalence of Gold Sellers in games like this, they treat it as a normal gambling system that requires licensing, as it can be turned into RL cash. One more reason to hate the Gold Sellers, I suppose!
Anyway, some form of Bound Currency, however that would/could be implemented, may get around that.
However, it's probably just easier to remove the gambling aspect and just focus on the bragging rights!
I know its easier but.... It felt like a great way to bring in more fans to watch people fight. I am halted in my progression of the thought though because we know too little about the game. With a bound currency you would only be able to use it for stuff purchased directly from the system and I don't know if I would have to create an entire shop specifically for this arena or if there are enough npc shops that would make it worth gathering the bound currency.
I know its easier but.... It felt like a great way to bring in more fans to watch people fight. I am halted in my progression of the thought though because we know too little about the game. With a bound currency you would only be able to use it for stuff purchased directly from the system and I don't know if I would have to create an entire shop specifically for this arena or if there are enough npc shops that would make it worth gathering the bound currency.
Some form of in-game token system where you collect tokens to buy Housing Cosmetics?!
Just build a big circle in your Freehold, and advertise it as your own private Arena.
I could probably do that but I don't think it would have as much impact and staying power as a real system added to the game. But if ultimately my idea never got added that would be the next best thing I could do.
This is a hard NO, from me. It would be abused, and I don't really like anything from the concept.
That's interesting. So with the current suggestions how exactly will it be abused? I would appreciate specifics so I can address it. Even if you dont like the idea at all.
Updating the original post with a clarification and two suggested changes.
Just to be clear, this will not be an instanced arena, people will be able to freely walk into the stands and watch each fight though they will not be able to enter the pit itself.
Suggestion to circumvent being against gambling law: Any gold earned via this gambling system becomes an account bound currency that is used to pay taxes and various other system-based costs. Basically removing the ability to trade with players but still letting it be a useful resource.
Alternative to Full Loot: Instead of players dropping the gear they are wearing, the gear would instead drop to 0% durability and grant the winners the "repair cost" in materials for the gear broken in this manner. The amount can be changed as necessary.
So this idea, while it may be a good idea for some games, it is just not a good fit for Ashes of Creation. It interferes with too many of the already existing systems and violates several of the design pillars.
There are 8 meaningful PvP activities
Arena
Bounty Hunting
Caravans
Castle Sieges
Enemy of the State
Guild Wars
Node Sieges
Node Wars
Most of this idea is already covered in the Arena meaningful PvP theme.
Of the 8 meaningful PvP themes, only 1 takes people out of the world and into an instanced arena. Now saying it's not really instanced doesn’t mean it's not instanced. If it’s specific times of day, at specific locations, then it's instanced in all but technology/technical application.
The betting portion of the idea probably won’t be able to be manifested due to EU laws on gambling. While it is true Intrepid wants to have betting on the parlor games and the other arenas, what Intrepid wants and what the EU law will allow are two different things. Both Final Fantasy XIV and Archeage had to remove and/or modify their casino systems in order to either publish the game (Archeage) or release their casino version (FFXIV)
The winning team should not get a percentage of any bets though. That is too easy to game the system, throw fights, etc. This idea was seen numerous times in Eve Online during the Alliance Tournaments, where teams could easily win a round and they elected to not win the round in order to collect huge odd bets at 3rd part websites. This would be no different. If there was enough gold to be made, people would throw fights.
The dropping of gear touches on the corruption system and that particular dynamic and that is already a system that needs to be worked out. You can want full loot as much as you want, you can try to force it into the game as an “optional” system, but you are asking the developers to undertake a ton of work for a very small minority of players who would even partake in this, and as a second system that already takes players out of the open world PvP encounters.
This is a system that hasn’t been fully thought out about how it interfaces with all the other systems in Ashes. Gearing is going to be completed via PvE (raiding) PvE (crafting) PVE (buying) or the very rarest of occasions when a Bounty Hunter actually gets a RNG loot drop off a corrupted. The likelihood of a corrupted dropping even a single piece of gear is small, their entire set is infinitesimal. You are basically suggesting that a person, a team of 2, a team of 4, or a team of 8 should lose their entire set. This just is not going to happen.
By not going to happen, it means the Developers are going to waste their time and resources to develop a full loot drop system.
The secondary alternative currency cannot and must not be able to be used to pay taxes, otherwise it causes a ripple effect in the value of normal currency. The issue with a player driven economy is that inflation must be controlled, and the economy must remain closed. When you create a system where a bound currency can be used for some things, and unbound currency can be used for other things, you are actually given a weighted value to that currency. If you could generate income to pay your taxes via this, you would want to generate your tax payments via this so you could spend your unbound currency on other things. Remember that point about people fixing fights? Yes, that would happen by having a feeder teams sign up with trash gear, people could bet, and then basically generate free tax payments at 0 risk because they are ultimately controlling the outcome. This would happen if guild did fixes between guild members, citizens did fixes between residents, or simply if a group of scrubs ended up entering the arena.
Ultimately this is the problem with any MMORPG that wants to include a gambling mechanic that then must become bound. To keep the currency value fixed, that currency must then only be allowed to purchase bound items, and those bound items must be unique in that they can only be purchased with that bound currency. The reference for this Final Fantasy XIV where nothing from the Gold Saucer can ever be traded.
All in all you can keep advocating for this system on a nightly post into the forums, or you can take a few weeks, actually learn all the mechanics, design philosophies, and systems in Ashes of Creation and come back in a few weeks with a more well rounded idea.
As it is now, this doesn’t fit with the PvP System, the Gear Acquisition Progression Vision, or the Player Driven Economy System.
just responding quickly so that you know I am not ignoring your post. Im gonna sit down and go through the wiki with your response and see what I can do.
So this idea, while it may be a good idea for some games, it is just not a good fit for Ashes of Creation. It interferes with too many of the already existing systems and violates several of the design pillars.
I disagree but lets see if I can explain it a bit better down below.
There are 8 meaningful PvP activities
Arena
Bounty Hunting
Caravans
Castle Sieges
Enemy of the State
Guild Wars
Node Sieges
Node Wars
Most of this idea is already covered in the Arena meaningful PvP theme.
Of the 8 meaningful PvP themes, only 1 takes people out of the world and into an instanced arena. Now saying it's not really instanced doesn’t mean it's not instanced. If it’s specific times of day, at specific locations, then it's instanced in all but technology/technical application.
Something to note is I do not want the rankings to give seasonal rewards like arenas would. This ranking is purely to create the betting system. The higher the ranks and item level of teams the more that would be allowed to bet on them. Again, this system will not be linked to other pvp progression systems as it already has a simple reward/risk dynamic built in.
Now I don't see how a limited time and participation event that players do not have to interact with would cause harm to the other pvp systems. Sure, lets just say that it is instanced. However, with the added suggestion of looting materials rather than the enemies gear solves this as they will still need to go out and either sell the materials or get a crafter to finish up any equipment they wanted to make. Either way, it feeds them back into the other systems.
I also want us to recognize that Steven did say that arena does not currently give equipment but went on to say they are still discussing this as an option among other options.
and as far as I could understand from the interview this is referencing, Steven isn't against pulling players from the open world with arenas because he is confident in the open world to keep them entertained more than arena.
This is the interview i am referencing and the timestamps for both points. gear from arena
Now if this is outdated and you have another quote I am all ears.
The betting portion of the idea probably won’t be able to be manifested due to EU laws on gambling. While it is true Intrepid wants to have betting on the parlor games and the other arenas, what Intrepid wants and what the EU law will allow are two different things. Both Final Fantasy XIV and Archeage had to remove and/or modify their casino systems in order to either publish the game (Archeage) or release their casino version (FFXIV)
The winning team should not get a percentage of any bets though. That is too easy to game the system, throw fights, etc. This idea was seen numerous times in Eve Online during the Alliance Tournaments, where teams could easily win a round and they elected to not win the round in order to collect huge odd bets at 3rd part websites. This would be no different. If there was enough gold to be made, people would throw fights.
Do I need to change what the bound currency would be for? You address this a bit later but I felt that having it be used solely for taxes and other npc-only vendors/systems would be a good fix as it cannot be gamed for RMT. Will forcing you to use the bound currency over gold when doing these payments help or make it worse?
Your point about players being able to sync up with the random queues, I honestly dont think I can make that better. If someone comes along with an idea to help fix that I would appreciate it.
The dropping of gear touches on the corruption system and that particular dynamic and that is already a system that needs to be worked out. You can want full loot as much as you want, you can try to force it into the game as an “optional” system, but you are asking the developers to undertake a ton of work for a very small minority of players who would even partake in this, and as a second system that already takes players out of the open world PvP encounters.
Well the dropping of gear is not a must as stated in the alternative suggestions, but since corruption will have this mechanic I don't see the harm in making an event where those corruption-prone individuals can go fight each other at the risk of losing their gear/durability. It's just a different flavor of pvper that this caters to and its ok if its not for everyone. And yes, I feel this would take players out of the open world on a minor scale, and those people are most likely to have been going around playing as corrupted players. What's better than a daycare for griefers?
This is a system that hasn’t been fully thought out about how it interfaces with all the other systems in Ashes. Gearing is going to be completed via PvE (raiding) PvE (crafting) PVE (buying) or the very rarest of occasions when a Bounty Hunter actually gets a RNG loot drop off a corrupted. The likelihood of a corrupted dropping even a single piece of gear is small, their entire set is infinitesimal. You are basically suggesting that a person, a team of 2, a team of 4, or a team of 8 should lose their entire set. This just is not going to happen.
By not going to happen, it means the Developers are going to waste their time and resources to develop a full loot drop system.
Well, I am doing the best I can. From my point of view the murder pit will mostly be its own animal that dips slightly into the other aspects. The goal is to make it not efficient to sit around waiting for a queue to pop, provide a play pin for those that like taking more risks without causing issues in the open world via corruption, and give people a place to go relax, watch two teams trash talk/beat each other to death, and bet on which morons will win.
The secondary alternative currency cannot and must not be able to be used to pay taxes, otherwise it causes a ripple effect in the value of normal currency. The issue with a player driven economy is that inflation must be controlled, and the economy must remain closed. When you create a system where a bound currency can be used for some things, and unbound currency can be used for other things, you are actually given a weighted value to that currency. If you could generate income to pay your taxes via this, you would want to generate your tax payments via this so you could spend your unbound currency on other things. Remember that point about people fixing fights? Yes, that would happen by having a feeder teams sign up with trash gear, people could bet, and then basically generate free tax payments at 0 risk because they are ultimately controlling the outcome. This would happen if guild did fixes between guild members, citizens did fixes between residents, or simply if a group of scrubs ended up entering the arena.
The bound currency sticks its toe in other systems but i feel it is supplementary rather than destructive in nature. If it has not been clarified before, this currency will convert into real gold if used for taxes and such that get funded into nodes. So it will mostly find its way back into the player economy in a very round-about non-exploitative way. The rest goes into the npcs and is forever lost.
Sigh. Ok let me ask this, If we come up with a way to remove the ability for players to set up feeder matches would you then be ok with the bound currency? The best thing I can think of is making the matches cross-realm but I know they are currently not making plans for that. This would fix the issue of guilds setting up matches but would most likely cause a bigger headache than the whole idea is worth.
Ultimately this is the problem with any MMORPG that wants to include a gambling mechanic that then must become bound. To keep the currency value fixed, that currency must then only be allowed to purchase bound items, and those bound items must be unique in that they can only be purchased with that bound currency. The reference for this Final Fantasy XIV where nothing from the Gold Saucer can ever be traded.
Yeah, I would prefer if it had actual uses aside from cosmetics/pets/mount skins, but if they wanted to take the time to go that route I wouldn't be against it.
All in all you can keep advocating for this system on a nightly post into the forums, or you can take a few weeks, actually learn all the mechanics, design philosophies, and systems in Ashes of Creation and come back in a few weeks with a more well rounded idea.
As it is now, this doesn’t fit with the PvP System, the Gear Acquisition Progression Vision, or the Player Driven Economy System.
I'm just here to bounce ideas around until the game launches. If they come here and say "nope" then I can't do anything but move on. Until then though I will continue to try and collect opinions and ideas to make it work.
Thank you for taking the time to respond here on the forums.
The bound currency sticks its toe in other systems but i feel it is supplementary rather than destructive in nature. If it has not been clarified before, this currency will convert into real gold if used for taxes and such that get funded into nodes. So it will mostly find its way back into the player economy in a very round-about non-exploitative way. The rest goes into the npcs and is forever lost.
Most laws in relation to regulating gambling are not doing so due to financial reasons - they are doing so due to addiction reasons.
Changing the currency for one that isn't immediately transferrable to fiat currency doesn't solve this issue.
Honestly, I would suggest dropping the gambling aspect of this unless we see gambling in the live game. While it is something they want to do, once they look in to even the limited gambling they have in mind, they may well decide even that isn't worth the time and money.
If this suggestion isn't viable without gambling, I would suggest taking on the assumption that it isn't viable.
Honestly, I would suggest dropping the gambling aspect of this unless we see gambling in the live game. While it is something they want to do, once they look in to even the limited gambling they have in mind, they may well decide even that isn't worth the time and money.
Yeah, I think the bragging rights alone would be enough to bring teams in. Just like there are raid groups who want to top the leaderboards, there will be PvP groups who also want to top the leaderboards.
The bound currency sticks its toe in other systems but i feel it is supplementary rather than destructive in nature. If it has not been clarified before, this currency will convert into real gold if used for taxes and such that get funded into nodes. So it will mostly find its way back into the player economy in a very round-about non-exploitative way. The rest goes into the npcs and is forever lost.
Most laws in relation to regulating gambling are not doing so due to financial reasons - they are doing so due to addiction reasons.
Changing the currency for one that isn't immediately transferrable to fiat currency doesn't solve this issue.
Honestly, I would suggest dropping the gambling aspect of this unless we see gambling in the live game. While it is something they want to do, once they look in to even the limited gambling they have in mind, they may well decide even that isn't worth the time and money.
If this suggestion isn't viable without gambling, I would suggest taking on the assumption that it isn't viable.
Well gambling is already being attempted with the parlor games so it can work just the same. The gambling isn't going to ruin the idea and I've already given suggestions to work around the laws that are concerned about it being real money gambling, just like final fantasy 14 has done.
And I wouldn't say the suggestion isn't viable without gambling, it just reduces the uniqueness that this has in comparison to standard arena. The gambling gives the murder pits a more thrilling atmosphere as not only are the fighters risking something, but so are the viewers.
Honestly, I would suggest dropping the gambling aspect of this unless we see gambling in the live game. While it is something they want to do, once they look in to even the limited gambling they have in mind, they may well decide even that isn't worth the time and money.
Yeah, I think the bragging rights alone would be enough to bring teams in. Just like there are raid groups who want to top the leaderboards, there will be PvP groups who also want to top the leaderboards.
Ultimately if the developers dont want the gambling aspect in the game then its whatever I cant stop that change. All i can do is bring up ideas that I believe would be good for the game and see if others as well as the developers agree.
Well gambling is already being attempted with the parlor games so it can work just the same.
As has been said,the parlor games are something they are wanting to do.
They may well not happen, or may not happen with the gambling aspect to them. We have to wait and see. Gambling with them is an intended feature, and until it is live, isn't something that should be assumed to be anything more.
If Intrepid don't manage to get the parlor games in with gambling, then you know that this suggestion won't even be close.
Well gambling is already being attempted with the parlor games so it can work just the same.
As has been said,the parlor games are something they are wanting to do.
They may well not happen, or may not happen with the gambling aspect to them. We have to wait and see. Gambling with them is an intended feature, and until it is live, isn't something that should be assumed to be anything more.
If Intrepid don't manage to get the parlor games in with gambling, then you know that this suggestion won't even be close.
Well thats my point as well. It is still being discussed so my idea still has a chance.
Comments
"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
@Noaani
Can't see a particular section that prohibits betting systems for in-game currencies. I won't bother asking you to link me the law/rule, cos I know you're a bit touchy about links.
So, you're saying that, with this new ruling, if I load up Star Trek Online again, I won't be able to play Dabo any more?
In many countries, gambling involving randomization is perfectly legal in almost all situations, and gambling that involves other peoples actions is not legal in any situation. In most countries though, there are set lists of actions that can be gambled on (almost exclusively sports), and if something is not on that list, it can not be gambled on legally.
The gambling in STO is purely random, the gambling suggested here would not be.
But... it is random? The only reason you say it isnt is because once in a blue moon someone could potentially fight someone they are in cahoots with. This is such a small chance that it makes you look like you are grasping at straws now.
Original post has been revised a bit more. Don't forget to like it to show your support!
I was reading into the current legislation surrounding 'Virtual Currency Gambling' (yeah yeah, I know....
Anyway, some form of Bound Currency, however that would/could be implemented, may get around that.
However, it's probably just easier to remove the gambling aspect and just focus on the bragging rights!
I know its easier but.... It felt like a great way to bring in more fans to watch people fight. I am halted in my progression of the thought though because we know too little about the game. With a bound currency you would only be able to use it for stuff purchased directly from the system and I don't know if I would have to create an entire shop specifically for this arena or if there are enough npc shops that would make it worth gathering the bound currency.
Some form of in-game token system where you collect tokens to buy Housing Cosmetics?!
Just build a big circle in your Freehold, and advertise it as your own private Arena.
Well I would like to make it more expansive than just a mini-game to play for cosmetics.
I could probably do that but I don't think it would have as much impact and staying power as a real system added to the game. But if ultimately my idea never got added that would be the next best thing I could do.
That's interesting. So with the current suggestions how exactly will it be abused? I would appreciate specifics so I can address it. Even if you dont like the idea at all.
Let me know what you guys think.
There are 8 meaningful PvP activities
Arena
Bounty Hunting
Caravans
Castle Sieges
Enemy of the State
Guild Wars
Node Sieges
Node Wars
Most of this idea is already covered in the Arena meaningful PvP theme.
Of the 8 meaningful PvP themes, only 1 takes people out of the world and into an instanced arena. Now saying it's not really instanced doesn’t mean it's not instanced. If it’s specific times of day, at specific locations, then it's instanced in all but technology/technical application.
The betting portion of the idea probably won’t be able to be manifested due to EU laws on gambling. While it is true Intrepid wants to have betting on the parlor games and the other arenas, what Intrepid wants and what the EU law will allow are two different things. Both Final Fantasy XIV and Archeage had to remove and/or modify their casino systems in order to either publish the game (Archeage) or release their casino version (FFXIV)
The winning team should not get a percentage of any bets though. That is too easy to game the system, throw fights, etc. This idea was seen numerous times in Eve Online during the Alliance Tournaments, where teams could easily win a round and they elected to not win the round in order to collect huge odd bets at 3rd part websites. This would be no different. If there was enough gold to be made, people would throw fights.
The dropping of gear touches on the corruption system and that particular dynamic and that is already a system that needs to be worked out. You can want full loot as much as you want, you can try to force it into the game as an “optional” system, but you are asking the developers to undertake a ton of work for a very small minority of players who would even partake in this, and as a second system that already takes players out of the open world PvP encounters.
This is a system that hasn’t been fully thought out about how it interfaces with all the other systems in Ashes. Gearing is going to be completed via PvE (raiding) PvE (crafting) PVE (buying) or the very rarest of occasions when a Bounty Hunter actually gets a RNG loot drop off a corrupted. The likelihood of a corrupted dropping even a single piece of gear is small, their entire set is infinitesimal. You are basically suggesting that a person, a team of 2, a team of 4, or a team of 8 should lose their entire set. This just is not going to happen.
By not going to happen, it means the Developers are going to waste their time and resources to develop a full loot drop system.
The secondary alternative currency cannot and must not be able to be used to pay taxes, otherwise it causes a ripple effect in the value of normal currency. The issue with a player driven economy is that inflation must be controlled, and the economy must remain closed. When you create a system where a bound currency can be used for some things, and unbound currency can be used for other things, you are actually given a weighted value to that currency. If you could generate income to pay your taxes via this, you would want to generate your tax payments via this so you could spend your unbound currency on other things. Remember that point about people fixing fights? Yes, that would happen by having a feeder teams sign up with trash gear, people could bet, and then basically generate free tax payments at 0 risk because they are ultimately controlling the outcome. This would happen if guild did fixes between guild members, citizens did fixes between residents, or simply if a group of scrubs ended up entering the arena.
Ultimately this is the problem with any MMORPG that wants to include a gambling mechanic that then must become bound. To keep the currency value fixed, that currency must then only be allowed to purchase bound items, and those bound items must be unique in that they can only be purchased with that bound currency. The reference for this Final Fantasy XIV where nothing from the Gold Saucer can ever be traded.
All in all you can keep advocating for this system on a nightly post into the forums, or you can take a few weeks, actually learn all the mechanics, design philosophies, and systems in Ashes of Creation and come back in a few weeks with a more well rounded idea.
As it is now, this doesn’t fit with the PvP System, the Gear Acquisition Progression Vision, or the Player Driven Economy System.
I disagree but lets see if I can explain it a bit better down below.
Something to note is I do not want the rankings to give seasonal rewards like arenas would. This ranking is purely to create the betting system. The higher the ranks and item level of teams the more that would be allowed to bet on them. Again, this system will not be linked to other pvp progression systems as it already has a simple reward/risk dynamic built in.
Now I don't see how a limited time and participation event that players do not have to interact with would cause harm to the other pvp systems. Sure, lets just say that it is instanced. However, with the added suggestion of looting materials rather than the enemies gear solves this as they will still need to go out and either sell the materials or get a crafter to finish up any equipment they wanted to make. Either way, it feeds them back into the other systems.
I also want us to recognize that Steven did say that arena does not currently give equipment but went on to say they are still discussing this as an option among other options.
and as far as I could understand from the interview this is referencing, Steven isn't against pulling players from the open world with arenas because he is confident in the open world to keep them entertained more than arena.
This is the interview i am referencing and the timestamps for both points.
gear from arena
Arena vs open world
Now if this is outdated and you have another quote I am all ears.
Do I need to change what the bound currency would be for? You address this a bit later but I felt that having it be used solely for taxes and other npc-only vendors/systems would be a good fix as it cannot be gamed for RMT. Will forcing you to use the bound currency over gold when doing these payments help or make it worse?
Your point about players being able to sync up with the random queues, I honestly dont think I can make that better. If someone comes along with an idea to help fix that I would appreciate it.
Well the dropping of gear is not a must as stated in the alternative suggestions, but since corruption will have this mechanic I don't see the harm in making an event where those corruption-prone individuals can go fight each other at the risk of losing their gear/durability. It's just a different flavor of pvper that this caters to and its ok if its not for everyone. And yes, I feel this would take players out of the open world on a minor scale, and those people are most likely to have been going around playing as corrupted players. What's better than a daycare for griefers?
Well, I am doing the best I can. From my point of view the murder pit will mostly be its own animal that dips slightly into the other aspects. The goal is to make it not efficient to sit around waiting for a queue to pop, provide a play pin for those that like taking more risks without causing issues in the open world via corruption, and give people a place to go relax, watch two teams trash talk/beat each other to death, and bet on which morons will win.
The bound currency sticks its toe in other systems but i feel it is supplementary rather than destructive in nature. If it has not been clarified before, this currency will convert into real gold if used for taxes and such that get funded into nodes. So it will mostly find its way back into the player economy in a very round-about non-exploitative way. The rest goes into the npcs and is forever lost.
Sigh. Ok let me ask this, If we come up with a way to remove the ability for players to set up feeder matches would you then be ok with the bound currency? The best thing I can think of is making the matches cross-realm but I know they are currently not making plans for that. This would fix the issue of guilds setting up matches but would most likely cause a bigger headache than the whole idea is worth.
Yeah, I would prefer if it had actual uses aside from cosmetics/pets/mount skins, but if they wanted to take the time to go that route I wouldn't be against it.
I'm just here to bounce ideas around until the game launches. If they come here and say "nope" then I can't do anything but move on. Until then though I will continue to try and collect opinions and ideas to make it work.
Thank you for taking the time to respond here on the forums.
Changing the currency for one that isn't immediately transferrable to fiat currency doesn't solve this issue.
Honestly, I would suggest dropping the gambling aspect of this unless we see gambling in the live game. While it is something they want to do, once they look in to even the limited gambling they have in mind, they may well decide even that isn't worth the time and money.
If this suggestion isn't viable without gambling, I would suggest taking on the assumption that it isn't viable.
Yeah, I think the bragging rights alone would be enough to bring teams in. Just like there are raid groups who want to top the leaderboards, there will be PvP groups who also want to top the leaderboards.
Well gambling is already being attempted with the parlor games so it can work just the same. The gambling isn't going to ruin the idea and I've already given suggestions to work around the laws that are concerned about it being real money gambling, just like final fantasy 14 has done.
And I wouldn't say the suggestion isn't viable without gambling, it just reduces the uniqueness that this has in comparison to standard arena. The gambling gives the murder pits a more thrilling atmosphere as not only are the fighters risking something, but so are the viewers.
Ultimately if the developers dont want the gambling aspect in the game then its whatever I cant stop that change. All i can do is bring up ideas that I believe would be good for the game and see if others as well as the developers agree.
They may well not happen, or may not happen with the gambling aspect to them. We have to wait and see. Gambling with them is an intended feature, and until it is live, isn't something that should be assumed to be anything more.
If Intrepid don't manage to get the parlor games in with gambling, then you know that this suggestion won't even be close.
Well thats my point as well. It is still being discussed so my idea still has a chance.
I have also added an additional alternative to full loot pvp in way of a cosmetic token system. Check out the original post for details
The arena