Please reconsider rogue stealth

So as much as I am hyped for this game, the big draw-in for me will be if the classes are fun to play. Specifically rogues, as they are always my go-to archetype. I read that stealth will not grant you complete invisibility, and that's quite a bummer to me. The ability will probably be rendered useless fast since
1. people have or will gain experience to spot it easily - give players more credit, lest I'm only to attack people who are afk
2. there's probably many ways to counter invisibility regardless, at least I assume so (AoE in general helps with that, and there's plenty of that from what I've seen)
3. since the rogues usually are built around this mechanic and strong openers, if the ability is useless so will the class itself be.

Perhaps this is very hyperbolic/cynical of me, obviously I have no way of knowing for sure I'm right until we get to see it play out. But I thought it would be good to mention at the very least as something to think about. If you're very set on this aspect, please think of other ways for the rogue to make up for it. Thanks

Comments

  • Is there a megathread for these, yet?

    Let me point out the most important part of your post:
    mindghosts wrote: »
    obviously I have no way of knowing for sure I'm right until we get to see it play out.

    Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and see how it plays!
  • I cant help but agree with you. I played stealth smuggler in SWTOR and yes I know it was a completely different game with different mechanics than this one will have but I can't imagine an archetype like that that can't fully stealth. You nailed it on point 3 IMO with the strong openers. Especially in SWTOR if you were a stealth class and didn't open with your opener no way you were going to win that fight. Which comes back to stealth needing to actually be invisible. Sounds like the current system is like active camouflage. People are going to see it and it will render them useless in PvP.
  • Stealth is quite a handy skill. It works differently for rogues and for rangers though (both should be able to use it). Reason is because one dwells in cities the other in the wilderness. But, since the environment varies, as well as the lifeforms present, the skill must also adapt to the conditions. Down-to-earthly speaking, in the game itself (taking out the principality of the ability), if you could stealth-skin have an armor skin that can camouflage in the area, you could stealth according to how well and timed you press the key (depending on the ability) and the cool-down. Time it perfectly, and you can be quite deadly.

  • WarthWarth Member
    I cant help but agree with you. I played stealth smuggler in SWTOR and yes I know it was a completely different game with different mechanics than this one will have but I can't imagine an archetype like that that can't fully stealth. You nailed it on point 3 IMO with the strong openers. Especially in SWTOR if you were a stealth class and didn't open with your opener no way you were going to win that fight. Which comes back to stealth needing to actually be invisible. Sounds like the current system is like active camouflage. People are going to see it and it will render them useless in PvP.

    sounds like SWTOR had a piss poor Rogue class design. But there is a simple solution to that, if you don't give a rogue full invisibility, don't hide most of its power behind landing your stealth opener. Crazy idea i know. How else can the game be a wow copy?
  • There are a lot of games that have the rogue/thief archetype with little to no stealth and they aren't always about strong openers. Aside from flavor what is the thing that makes stealth mandatory to some people? If it's for strong openers then wouldn't giving them a good gap closer do the same? I'm guessing this is more for PvP because I know of 0 games that actually make constant use of stealth for PvE content. Strong openers don't matter in a 5-7 min fight. In PvP honestly stealth can be a toxic ability, baiting someone to fight a friend and sneaking in midfight to make it 2v1 and such. Doesn't leave much counter play for the opponent where that tactic with a non stealth class let's the opponent decide if it's worth it to go alone, run, or get help instead of straight up ganking them and camping the area in stealth so you always have the advantage. Making everyone equally vulnerable allows for balance to be made easier without having massive power swings based on trying to balance a class around 1 skill. I could see a full stealth with limited during and a long CD working because it isn't up all the time and you have to choose to use it as an engage, disengage, or mid fight to drop target. It creates choice and balance while not being oppressive.
  • millions of these threads and yet nobody has actually seen the stealth in play :/
  • +1 for rogue stealth megathread.

    Disclaimer: I mained a rogue back in vanilla wow, and have switched to main mage, warlock, priest, demon hunter in the later expansions. So I understand the joy of being able to jump someone while stealthed and combo-chain them to death, and also the frustration of getting jumped by a stealthy rogue and get stun-locked to death, or watch him cloak-of-shadow + vanish away when I've managed to fight back.

    That being said, since when are "rogues" masters of total invisibility??? Hell, even ninjas don't get to be invisible. Why should rogues be able to do it? Do they carry high-tech optical camouflage like Solid Snake after you've cleared the game? Are they masters of arcane and know how to magically bend light? Are they dark templars and have psionic abilities to bend light??

    No, I don't think any of the above fits the "rogue" archetype. I can agree that rogues should be "sneaky", e.g. they make no noise when they move & have a 100% hit chance when attacking from behind, may be they can control their breathing and hide their "presence" (e.g. not show up on the radar of some ranger with "track humanoids" ability on), they're probably good at camouflaging and make themselves hard to spot - but giving a rogue total invisibility and allow him to sprint across an open field undetected just feels wrong.

    The current implementation for stealth feels more reasonable - hard to spot, but possible to spot if you look close enough. And the rogue should not be balanced around reliance on stealth.

    And as others said, we'll have to wait and see how things play out in testings
  • I mean, Idk about you guys but i played Hots back when the stealth mechanic was basically what they showed for AoC and that crap gets really hard to spot when you in the middle of face-paced fights or just not paying full attention to your surroundings. Perhaps the current AoC stealth needs a bit of quality work but overall I feel it is a refreshing and good take on stealth.

    Some players will know how to spot it. Some will not. I think that's an acceptable skill gap.

    Naturally this still needs to be released for full mechanical context but I dig the predator-esque look of the stealth.

    9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited October 16
    Okay, this is from the view of someone who played APOC and who actually got to experience the stealth mechanic:

    1. Are you able to spot it? Yes, after some training. Higher grafics makes it easier to see the distortion.
    2. Are you able to easily keep track of someone in stealth? No, you are not. Especially if you are in combat and effects are thrown around all over the place.
    3. Is it fun to stealth? Yes, it is. It is really fun to stealth around.


    Some tips if they keep it the way it is:
    Dont run in a straight line, keep moving in a zig-zag pattern. Try to backtrack sometimes, because that throws off many people. Dont rely on the stealth.

    I think that Ashes is on a good way right now. League of Legends is currently the only game though, where I absolutely love the implementation of Stealth. You are invisible until you get too close to a target, then get a silhouette and if they close in even more the stealth is then broken.




    Sathrago wrote: »
    I mean, Idk about you guys but i played Hots back when the stealth mechanic was basically what they showed for AoC and that crap gets really hard to spot when you in the middle of face-paced fights or just not paying full attention to your surroundings. Perhaps the current AoC stealth needs a bit of quality work but overall I feel it is a refreshing and good take on stealth.

    Some players will know how to spot it. Some will not. I think that's an acceptable skill gap.

    Naturally this still needs to be released for full mechanical context but I dig the predator-esque look of the stealth.

    9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

    I really preferred the old mechanic more xD
    (*cough* not because I mained Valeera or anything *cough*)
    KkvMmA5.png
  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    Dude, this is not WoW.

    In a game with death penalties you can't afford to give a class the massive advantage of always being the one who picks when and who to fight.
  • WarthWarth Member
    Sov54 wrote: »
    Dude, this is not WoW.

    In a game with death penalties you can't afford to give a class the massive advantage of always being the one who picks when and who to fight.

    kinda depends on how much impact having the opener has in the game. With a TTK of 5-10 seconds like in certain mmos, having the opener is a huge advantage. With a TTK of 30-60 seconds, less so.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Go look at apoc stealth and come back
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • I think the current stealth will be fine and we still don't know if there will be anyway of increasing it through skills or specializations down the road so all of this worry could be for naught.
  • Imagine stealth being a skill-based utility with counterplay that isn't just guessing instead of a crutch to freely open on unsuspecting targets. Rogues might actually have to try in the open world.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited October 17
    You were bummed that STEALTH is not INVISIBILITY? I mean, I'm also bummed apples don't taste like mangos but that's because they are different things entirely. I don't know which game made these two equivalent but in most stealth games you play, you go unnoticed IF you are good at hiding, I haven't played many stealth games where I'm straight up invisible, would take away from the whole feel and concept, don't you think?

    It should indeed be the case that stealth can be seen by the keen eye. If you put someone on alert while you are "stealth" in an empty field of grass, they should be able to find you. A part of being stealthy is being opportunistic and knowing when you are less likely to be noticed or catching someone unaware.
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