My Concerns with AoC

edited October 17 in General Discussion
This is gonna catch a lot of hate on these forums. Just know I don't say this to be rude in any way. I very much respect you all, the dev team, and this community.

PVPers don't keep games alive. As a matter of fact, PVPers are the most fickle people to market a game too. They play something till they have run off everyone else. And when they don't have a target-rich environment of easy players to kill they then leave for the next game. This has been the case for every single MMORPG that has marketed it's as PVP or PVX since 2004.

And you can throw out all the PVP focused MMORPGS you want, I don't see anyone here still playing those. And that's just the truth, and we all know why. It's 2020, not the easily 2000s. Development teams learned the hard way and moved on. Those games/genres are dead for obvious reasons. Just because they have some small player base still playing doesn't make them successful.

PVEers do keep games alive. And they are generally your cash cows for any Development team in ALL MMORPGs. They tend to stay, build social communities, trade, build, etc. PVEers have staying power. And keep the game itself running. What some of you would call "carebears", is what I call hardcore PVEers, and they keep the lights on in all current top-selling MMORPGs.

There is a reason most of if not all MMORPGs encourage PVE content players to join, play, etc. I'm not seeing that with AoC and it's extremely concerning. This mindset that 80% of the world needs to be contestable, is going to backfire, and honestly let us be real, lead to another dead PVP focused MMORPG. Sure call AoC PVX all you want, it doesn't change what it actually is as of current.

All current best-selling MMORPGs have moved to a managed PVP system. Either via select servers, BGs, Arenas, etc. Arena/BG-style PVP results in more engaging PVP content. The battles feel more fluid and are frankly more fun. You aren't fighting against someone with no interest in PVP. You are fighting other PVPers. Which actually requires skill. And this is a system basically all MMORPGs have moved to.

As terrible of a game as New World is and will be. Even it's Development realized these truths, made public statements about it, and changed their game so it would be successful in the future. Players who want an 80% contested world are actually the minority of players looking to call AoC home. The majority are looking for a solid replacement for WoW, ESO, FF, etc. They want to see awesome raid content with hardcore boss mechanics, dungeons with interesting content, and bosses that keep you engaged. Open world content that isn't a grindy mess like L2/AA were and still are. Hell, they even want to sieges, caravans, and some open-world PVP.

But the key here is managed PVP encounters. Currently, that's not what AoC is on track to be as an MMORPG. As a matter of fact, the current flagging system is basically from L2/AA. It encourages getting corruption to a certain extent. Get corrupted with your friends, hold up, and kill those coming for you.

IMO AoC needs to take some steps forward and make itself a bit more PVE focused, and not just hang out the players wanting that to dry. Which IMO is what it is currently doing. AoC is as of current basically pushing away it's the biggest cash crop of players, for a small minority of players who want long since dead mechanics that were proven flawed and destroyed past MMORPGs that focused on it.

They say history repeats itself, and I fear AoC is on the wrong side of MMORPG history here. And before some of you say it, asking others to "Don't play" or "Don't like, then leave" is not acceptable behavior to those of us bringing up our concerns. That mentality leads to dead games. AoC needs to have something for everyone to do that they can enjoy, outside of constant PVP, or the game will be a failure. That's simply a fact of life.

I'm certain my opinion here isn't going to be a popular one on these forums. But I hope you'll respect it. Thank you for your time.
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Comments

  • George BlackGeorge Black Member
    edited October 17
    0 respect
    This is your third "why wont aoc be a wow eso copy?"
    Aoc wants to bring back the original feel of mmos. Get it through your thick skull.
    Btw, you aren't saying ANYTHING that we dont alrdy know. IS knows it as well.
  • Like we went over in the other exact same threads you made, they aren't completely changing the entire game around just to make you and the other hardcore carebears happy.

    They aren't getting rid of open world flagging, or changing the entire game. You are just pissin in the wind right now. I mean the selfishness and entitlement is insane in my eyes because you are for demanding everything in the game be redone and be catered to you. Who cares about all of us who are excited for the PvP systems right?

    The devs are making THEIR game, they have said that a thousand times and they aren't making another generic PvE WoW clone.

    "Don't play" or "Don't like, then leave" etc
  • When you dont like it then leave it. Dont try to change it.
  • Tenebris wrote: »
    Yeah, see this is my problem with AoC currently. It allows players such as @George Black and @Bricktop to even stay on these forums. When they are completely toxic personalities. It actually says a lot about how AoC is going to be handling the content of their game.

    On any other game forums, I am a part of, if I stated what was said by @Bricktop I'd be banned. That's a fact. The amount of pure immaturity and entitlement from players that reply like that is sickening. Oh, you want the game to be better, and have something to offer everyone, GTFO... Yeah, No... Stop acting like a child.

    @tiberiustheron Rest assured you are not alone in your concerns, and that the Discord has been debating these topics for months, trying to react the Devs ears. And I actually encourage you to keep posting your concerns as you see them, so we can improve the game as a community. While I don't want another WoW clone, I also equally don't want another L2/AA clone. Which is what AoC currently is going to be.

    Banned for what? Telling people who aren't happy about something not to do it instead of ruining it for everybody else? How absurd.

  • >toxic personalities

    please go and stay away.
  • Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop All you have done on these forums for the past few weeks is attempt to run away players interested in the game, just because they disagree with you. You constantly name call, curse, and are completely rude. You are actually quite the laughing stock to those of us who are normally on the Discord.

    You are like an old man yelling at kids to get off your lawn.

    You might be alright with people trying to New World the game but I am not.
  • From your first sentences you are already making me cringe mate. "Respect muh opinion, but also pvpers are just meanies who don't want an actual challenge and just want to bully people." Stop misrepresenting for starters.

    A good deal of the PvP community specifically want challenging fights and don't grief. Just because you got teabagged and spawn camped a few times over the years is no reason to speak so generally about people who enjoy PvP.

    In regard to pvpers not keeping a game alive, if I'm paying a sub I'm keeping it alive just as much as you are. You seem to be implying that if I attack you and take your stuff, you cry and unsub from the game, that is me killing the game? Not you for whining about being contested in a game with open world PvP elements?

    All players are going to be "forming communities, crafting, building and trading". Are you under the impression that PvP players roam around, guildless, and just grunt at each other over in-game voice comms, until the group reaches critical mass and they go into a frenzy and fall upon you and your poor group? No. We have strong communities, and we intend to work hard on all aspects of the game - building up nodes, clearing PvE content, and having solid crafters - we just also want to fight you.

    Stop saying AoC needs to back out and make another clone, that is the best way to fade into obscurity. The reason the game has such a good following is we are all stoked someone might finally not make another wet blanket game that caters to people like you.
  • Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop Doesn't change the fact you constantly sit in the forums breaking the guidelines. Which as of today has been reported directly to LieutenantToast with screenshots. Like FFS grow up. Instead of trying to constantly put people down, name calling, and run away potential players... Try changing minds, opinions, and hearts in an adult and constructive manner.

    Sure if toast wants to chat with me I'll gladly listen. If she tells me to calm down on the forum posting I would do that as well.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited October 17
    This is my honest opinion as a hardcore PvE player:

    Even though I dont like PvP (Mainly because I really suck at it), it would not be a good idea to strike open world PvP.
    Open world PvP is one of the many aspects that makes AoC... AoC. It would be some other game without it and honestly, people like you are the reason why so many games failed. You always want new games to be a copy paste of other games, which inevitably sinks the game, because no one wants to play a clone of something where they already invested huge amounts of time and resources into.

    Go play other games, dont try to convince game developers to change their games. Ashes is good the way it is. If it fails in the end, then it fails. A game does not go under because it has open world PvP. They have most of the time WAY WORSE reasons then that.

    PvEers dont keep games like WoW or Guild Wars 2 alive. Casuals keep them alive.
    Open world PvP confronts Casuals with their eventual lack of skill, which turns them off. Good. We dont need a game that cuddles the poor casual fanbase that only play it because they like the feeling of immediate satisfaction. This game is a vision of Steven to bring back the days of hard work and gradual satisfaction. Where your hard work will be rewarded in the end.
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  • Although I share your concerns, I think AoC has managed the PvP elements. Caravans are mobile BGs. Keeps are fixed ones and can't be taken without warnings while everyone is offline. There are mechanics to bring consequences to pking. There are no hard factions making everyone either blue or red.

    MY main concern is about guilds becoming too powerful on a server. Something that is happening in PvE focused games too. PvP can make this less of a problem and it can make it worse.
  • Point heard. I think what you're missing is that the original idea behind an mmo would really entail some open world contest. In my mind, it would encourage guild participation in a non-contrived way, which is a huge part of why mmo's are not just simple "shuffle through the storyline" rpg's. I say as long as they actively concern themselves with true griefers they are on the right track.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member
    edited October 17
    0 respect
    This is your third "why wont aoc be a wow eso copy?"
    Aoc wants to bring back the original feel of mmos. Get it through your thick skull.
    Btw, you aren't saying ANYTHING that we dont alrdy know. IS knows it as well.

    Did you label me from this post, Tenebris? Should I be banned for this post, is that what you claim?
  • How come you changed to your "Tenebris" troll-account, tiberiustheron the troll? Did you think we wouldn't notice?
  • @Tenebris
    Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop All you have done on these forums for the past few weeks is an attempt to run away players interested in the game, just because they disagree with you. You constantly name call, curse, and are completely rude. You are actually quite the laughing stock to those of us who are normally on the Discord.

    You are like an old man yelling at kids to get off your lawn. Just because you don't like something someone does, doesn't give you the right to run away players from a game that clearly needs more interested players. AoC is bound to change over time, and if you can't handle that, maybe you should be the one leaving.

    Using your analogy yes, and this is the 17th house we have moved to after all the children tore up our lawns and forced us to move. Noone is directly saying you/anyone are not welcome here at all, it just seems kinda logical to think that if you don't like the core concepts of a game, it might not be for you.
  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited October 17
    daveywavey wrote: »
    How come you changed to your "Tenebris" troll-account, tiberiustheron the troll? Did you think we wouldn't notice?

    The only person to ever threaten to report me was OP yesterday. Nobody has ever had a problem with my forum posts and nobody has ever said I was insulting. Until OP yesterday. Now today a brand new account is super concerned about the state of the forums. The brand new account was made 10 mins after this thread went up and immediately started posting on this thread. OP hasn't responded for some reason?

    Seems suspect to me as well now that you mention it. Could be a duplicate account situation.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
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    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • MamutMamut Member
    Tiberius I think you deliberately try to present every MMORPG with any kind of open-world PvP as this terrible hellscape where everyone simply runs around PKing everyone until there is no-one left to murder. I'm sorry if that indeed was your experience with PvP, but for many it definitely isn't the case. I understand your concerns, but you are simply trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist. There are successful MMORPGs with open-world PvP (Black Desert for instance), New World was changed not because people were complaining about the existing PvP content, but because of absolute lack of PvE content and games like ArcheAge failed to retain player base not because of their focus on PvP, but because of horrible business practices and awful end game content.
    You have no clue how the game will actually play out (and Steven said several times that you can still engage in most of the game's mechanics without even touching the PvP aspects) yet you still feel compelled to come here every single day to tell everyone they are wrong for being excited for an upcoming game. Why?
  • Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop I will openly admit I created another account from my main to react to your moronic posts here. I unlike yourself have spent a ton of money in the game, have a community tied to it, and don't want to bring any harassment you'd bring to them. It's called being an adult. I am not @tiberiustheron, and I really don't care if you think that I am. If you think you have some moral high ground because someone else wants to keep themselves anonymous, you'd be wrong. This is the internet, if you don't like it, leave.

    Now if you have nothing else to add to the post, kindly move on.

    LOL. Just LOL.
  • @Tenebris I don't find any of our posts to be raging or butthurt. I'm openly dismissive because these are not constructive arguments, they are whining. Swearing is subjective, personally I don't like the type of community that censors the odd swear word and I don't think anyone on these forums overdoes it.
  • @tiberiustheron

    Well I appreciate the disclaimer but again with many of these posts, lots of assumptions...

    PvPers don't fall into a neat little category of wanting "easy prey". In fact most of them that I know want competitive close gameplay, killing less geared/unsuspecting targets is usually a flex and is brief in nature, especially in an MMO where you gain levels and progress your character through PvE. We are also told leveling to cap is going to take a very long time so I don't really imagine players taking too much time to focus on PvP until they at least cap.

    PvE on the other hand, which you claim keeps games alive, is actually very much contingent on the quantity and quality of the PvE content provided by the game and its ideally frequent updates. And again another assumption: that the PvE won't be as good as the games you have had fun with in the past. I do urge you to not want to re-live another game's experience, that never goes well unless it is a direct sequel. We just need to wait and see how they design boss fights and dungeons etc. Tons of forum posts regarding this topic, all there is to say has been said, now we wait and see what they present us as first pass.

    Now personally the idea of open world PvP does not wet my loins as much as it does Bricktop's for example but you have to give this game a chance no? I believe you and many like you are drawn to the game by the great game design philosophies and a genuine/honest attempt at making a good MMO that isn't about maximizing profits. I have been surprised by games before, tons of times. I never thought I would like a farming simulator but holy shit was stardew valley fun to play. I no longer really enjoy fps games but man am I burning hours on deep rock galactic like nobody's business.

    You have to have some level of trust for the game developers. This is their actual job and Steven's actual capital on the line, they are invested in making it work. If it is as clear as you say, they will listen but I can't help but feel like this is just hot air before we see their vision even a little. We have not yet seen any real MMO gameplay, don't forget that. I don't mean just a skirmish or two either, I mean a slice of what a day playing AoC will involve (the planning, traveling, storage management, gathering, crafting, combat in PvP, combat in dungeons, social interactions with the node and guilds etc. and how they all flow together).

    It's hard to imagine how the individual pieces of this game will come together, and alphas and betas are there to fine tune and address concerns so hold off on your concerns until then imo. If once we have more alpha/beta experience your fears are confirmed, then it's time to whip out the feather and ink and clear your throat about why something is a problem and should be changed. That is when a development team can take you seriously imo, when you look at what they have delivered and have constructive criticism, not what I honestly consider to be crystal ball doomsday complaints.
  • Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop I will openly admit I created another account from my main to react to your moronic posts here. I unlike yourself have spent a ton of money in the game, have a community tied to it, and don't want to bring any harassment you'd bring to them. It's called being an adult. I am not @tiberiustheron, and I really don't care if you think that I am. If you think you have some moral high ground because someone else wants to keep themselves anonymous, you'd be wrong. This is the internet, if you don't like it, leave.

    Now if you have nothing else to add to the post, kindly move on.

    People who stand by what they say don't need anonymity. You have no reason to think anyone here would harass your zerg community.
  • DemidreamerDemidreamer Member
    edited October 17
    ="tiberiustheron;d-47025"
    PVEers do keep games alive. And they are generally your cash cows for any Development team in ALL MMORPGs. They tend to stay, build social communities, trade, build, etc. PVEers have staying power. And keep the game itself running. What some of you would call "carebears", is what I call hardcore PVEers, and they keep the lights on in all current top-selling MMORPGs.

    IMO pver's don't contribute much to keeping games alive. Pver's try to rush through content with combat meters for claiming the "world first" status. After completing that, they become raid loggers that only pop in to stand around in a city, play the AH(raise prices), and go on their scheduled weekly raid, then log out.

    This is all fine but when they cry for more content in the form of a new expansion, I tend to leave whatever said game usually shortly thereafter. Reason is all the old content becomes obsolete. Skill trees change, hybrids get killed for the sake of balance so that dev's can add newer more fantastic abilities, more gap closers, more bigger heals, more defensive abilities etc.

    Like really if you want a challenge why are you playing against the computer? and most likely using combat meters on top of it. Pver's don't keep games alive, they kill them.

  • Tenebris wrote: »
    @Bricktop I will openly admit I created another account from my main to react to your moronic posts here. I unlike yourself have spent a ton of money in the game, have a community tied to it, and don't want to bring any harassment you'd bring to them. It's called being an adult. I am not @tiberiustheron, and I really don't care if you think that I am. If you think you have some moral high ground because someone else wants to keep themselves anonymous, you'd be wrong. This is the internet, if you don't like it, leave.

    Now if you have nothing else to add to the post, kindly move on.

    Just curious, but why did you have to create a second account to respond? Are you worried the bad pvper will come after your guild? Isn't that kind of lame?

    You claim you have "a ton of money" spent in the game, unlike Bricktop. How do you know how much he's invested? How do you know what his community is like? Seems like you are just assuming superiority and claiming entitlement. It's not a flattering look on you.

    Speaking of looking bad, do adults refer to one another as "moronic" where you are from? That seems very childish to me. Also you seem to think Bricktop was your accuser in this second account business but take a quick look back. You'll notice he said it's a possibility but he didn't initially accuse you of any such thing.

    I've always been a pve player first but I'm looking to Ashes as an exit from that gear/raid ratrace into a more complex and nuanced power struggle between players. An NPC, no matter how advanced, is just a toy on rails. They are fun to play with for a while but they don't really ENGAGE. In the same way, instanced pvp is fun but too safe. It is contained in its own little space and has no risk of spilling over into your comfortable, predictable pve system.

    What Ashes promises is a dynamic, ever changing, world shaping pvp system that has inspired a lot of pve players like myself to see pvp as something more than a curiosity or "mini game" and start taking it seriously as a meaningful part of the core game design in a way that could transform the player experience into something more unified and MOST IMPORTANTLY unpredictable. It becomes a struggle of intellect and mettle rather than just gear and memorization. I invested "a ton of money" too, and if voices like the OP have their way and world pvp gets gutted then that gamble is already lost. I want something new and different, not just new graphics for an endless gear cycle.
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