Artisans - In need of Clarification

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Comments

  • Dygz wrote: »
    Arzosah wrote: »
    and the flaw in your thinking is that Steven said you can master all the sub professions for a given parent profession(gather, processor, crafter). Yes it will take a lot of time but at some point you would only need 1 master gatherer.
    Again, mastering all the sub-professions does not necessarily mean that all Master Gatherers have the exact same abilities and tools. They certainly won't have the same racial stats.
    So to be certain that we would only need 1 Master Gatherer, we would have to have dev confirmation that stats will not make a difference on what can be gathered from the mob. And we would have to have dev confirmation that sub-race/culture won't make a difference in what a Master Gatherer can gather from the mob. And confirmation that religion and social organization won't make a difference. Same for gear and tools.

    We know that Master Crafters won't all have the same recipes - and we should expect something similar for Master Gatherers and Processors.
    What a Master Gatherer can gather is not solely determined by reaching max level in all the sub-paths.

    Absolutely, time will tell I guess.
  • ArzosahArzosah Member, Leader of Men
    I have doubts about how much variation there will be to gathering. There's a lot that can be done with processing and crafting, but there's only so much you can do with cutting down trees, picking weeds, hitting rocks and skinning corpses.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Right. But, the reason that we won't necessarily want just want 1 Master Gatherer along on a raid is because that one may not be able to get all the drops we want. Especially if some of those drops are determined by race or Node affiliation. For instance, it could be that some of the things a Master Gatherer can gather is determined by Node citizenship - as in, must be a citizen of a specific Node type. So, we might want 4 Master Gatherers if we want a spread of resources rather than ones that are only available to Scientific Gatherers or only available to Military Gatherers.
    We don't know whether specific tools will play a factor - in the same manner that specific weapons will play a factor in combat.

    A whole lot of stuff we don't know about crafting - we don't know enough to assume that maxing all the sub-paths of Master Gatherer makes all Master Gatherers the same... as it might do in WoW. Seems unlikely that will be the case, though.
    More likely that racial progression, Node progression and social progression will also be significant factors that make individual Master Gatherers unique. Probably gear will make a difference as well.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don't know if the gathering skill needs the same depth as processing and crafting because of the exploration aspect of it. The fun of producing or crafting is in the skill itself, skilling up your professions and being able make newer, better things. Gathering is a little different because you have to find the resources. The fun of being a master gatherer isn't necessarily using the skill to gather but exploring and finding the rare materials you want to gather.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Right. But, the reason that we won't necessarily want just want 1 Master Gatherer along on a raid is because that one may not be able to get all the drops we want. Especially if some of those drops are determined by race or Node affiliation. For instance, it could be that some of the things a Master Gatherer can gather is determined by Node citizenship - as in, must be a citizen of a specific Node type. So, we might want 4 Master Gatherers if we want a spread of resources rather than ones that are only available to Scientific Gatherers or only available to Military Gatherers.
    We don't know whether specific tools will play a factor - in the same manner that specific weapons will play a factor in combat.

    A whole lot of stuff we don't know about crafting - we don't know enough to assume that maxing all the sub-paths of Master Gatherer makes all Master Gatherers the same... as it might do in WoW. Seems unlikely that will be the case, though.
    More likely that racial progression, Node progression and social progression will also be significant factors that make individual Master Gatherers unique. Probably gear will make a difference as well.

    It is safe to assume all Master Gatherers will in fact be fundamentally the same once they’ve maxed every profession in the line. Maybe not crafting, but gathering, there’s not much you can really do with it.

    As it stands, someone who specializes purely into armorsmithing can never compete with someone who’s played long enough to have mastery in armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, and jewlerycrafting. There’s no reason for a guild to give recipes to the first player rather than the second. There’s no reason to go to the first player for crafting when the second can do everything they can do and more.

    At least there would be trade offs if specialization was required in any of the artisan trees.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    If I was a master boat maker, but needed a tailor (for sails) and a smith (for nails and such?) I would be okay with that. If there weren't a tailor and a smith about, and I had to request via caravan imports, I would be okay with that.

    Having these three crafts spread so far apart, or caravan PvP really takes off, and access to these needed materials becomes scarce, I think a lot of people would be unhappy. I wouldn't be able to make a boat, my character would know how, they just wouldn't be able to smith the nails or snip the sails.

    However, being able to craft armor, boats, wagons, and weapons seems like too much.

    I honestly don't know how to feel about this (not sure if post makes sense either).
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 31
    Again, there is plenty of stuff the devs can do to differentiate Gathering because what gets dropped as loot can be determined by race, religion, Node citizenship and social organization. Quality can be determined by stats and/or specific tools.

    I don't know what the point would be to stop at purely master Armorsmithing.
    From what Steven says, one character could possibly be a Master Gatherer and also a Master Armorsmith. But, one character cannot be both a Master Gatherer and a Master Crafter.
    I don't know that I expect a character that is just a Master Armorsmith to compete with a character that is a Master Crafter. But, it's feasible that both will be equally good at Armorsmithing in the same way that all max level Guardians are equally good at tanking. That doesn't mean that all Guardians will will be using the exact same abilities or that they will be wearing the exact same gear. And doesn't mean that a raid would want only one Guardian.
    Just as I expect a Vek Guardian from a Military Node to play significantly differently than a Py'Rai Guardian from a Religious Node, I also expect a Vek Master Gatherer from a Military node to play significantly differently than a Py'Rai Master Gatherer from a Religious Node.

    Sure, I guess guilds will also be able to give recipes to their Crafters, but the vast majority of a Crafters' recipes will not be something gifted by guilds.

    That being said, whatever assertions and speculations we make, we need actual confirmation from the devs.

  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Again, there is plenty of stuff the devs can do to differentiate Gathering because what gets dropped as loot can be determined by race, religion, Node citizenship and social organization. Quality can be determined by stats and/or specific tools.

    I don't know what the point would be to stop at purely master Armorsmithing.
    From what Steven says, one character could possibly be a Master Gatherer and also a Master Armorsmith. But, one character cannot be both a Master Gatherer and a Master Crafter.
    I don't know that I expect a character that is just a Master Armorsmith to compete with a character that is a Master Crafter. But, it's feasible that both will be equally good at Armorsmithing in the same way that all max level Guardians are equally good at tanking. That doesn't mean that all Guardians will will be using the exact same abilities or that they will be wearing the exact same gear. And doesn't mean that a raid would want only one Guardian.
    Just as I expect a Vek Guardian from a Military Node to play significantly differently than a Py'Rai Guardian from a Religious Node, I also expect a Vek Master Gatherer from a Military node to play significantly differently than a Py'Rai Master Gatherer from a Religious Node.

    Sure, I guess guilds will also be able to give recipes to their Crafters, but the vast majority of a Crafters' recipes will not be something gifted by guilds.

    That being said, whatever assertions and speculations we make, we need actual confirmation from the devs.

    You cannot be a Master Armorsmith (Craft profession) and a Master Miner (Gather profession).

    You can be a Master Armorsmith and a Master Weaponsmith, and a Master Clothier, and a Master Alchemist, and a Master Blacksmith, and a Master Carpenter all on one character.

    It’s nonsensical at best, and it certainly doesn’t encourage specialization. It encourages you to grind out every craft line or else your worth is a Crafter is minimal among a larger group.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    Steven didn't say that, though.
    What's been said is that you can't be a Master Crafter and a Master Processor.
    You can only ever master one parent path.
    We still need clarification about whether you can be a master of a sub-path within two different parent paths - but what he has said so far does not inherently preclude that.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don't think you master a path, but part of the path. In Skyrim you don't master magic, you master a school. With enough time you can master all the schools. This is how I thought about it at least.
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  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Steven didn't say that, though.
    What's been said is that you can't be a Master Crafter and a Master Processor.
    You can only ever master one parent path.
    We still need clarification about whether you can be a master of a sub-path within two different parent paths - but what he has said so far does not inherently preclude that.

    He specifically said you cannot Master more than one path. That’s a rather clear statement you cannot master part of gathering and part of crafting, because they are lumping the entire path together. If you master a Crafting profession, you’re a master Crafter. If you master a Gathering profession, you’re a master Gatherer.
  • swooxieswooxie Member
    edited August 1
    I think what Dygz meant is you apply the race to like elves can mining certain gems. (correct me if I'm wrong)
    On the other side it will be locked to a node(economic or relegion)/location where you can mine it.
    This will bring more variety.
    Like say the dwarfs can't mine the gems on a ore.
    But then the elves can.
    So that means for this purpose you want to have an elf master gatherer.

    Also notice that the crafting system is open for changes.
    It will be tested in A1 and maybe changed, all depend on the feedback.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited August 1
    Most of what Dygz is saying is fairly accurate imo - especially the part about having to wait for developer confirmation.

    Right now, we just don't know.

    However, what we do know - and what seems to be missing from this thread - is that unlike other games, in Ashes one challenge in crafting is in getting hold of the raw materials. Sure, someone with too much time on their hands may well master all the crafting professions, but that doesn't mean they have access to large quantities of the raw materials for all those crafting professions.

    To me, it seems unlikely that a player that sets themselves up in any one location will have easy access to every raw material they need - even if they are in an economic metropolis. All of the materials not found in the node that crafter is set up in will need to be bought in via caravan.

    Based on this, while that player may well be a master of woodworking and weapon smithing, if they are by a forest and have no access to ore, I'm far more likely to get my sword made by the crafter that is only a master of weapon smithing, but is set up next to an ore mine.
  • swooxieswooxie Member
    This is where the teleport of the sientific superpower can come in handy ;)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    Caeryl wrote: »
    He specifically said you cannot Master more than one path. That’s a rather clear statement you cannot master part of gathering and part of crafting, because they are lumping the entire path together. If you master a Crafting profession, you’re a master Crafter. If you master a Gathering profession, you’re a master Gatherer.
    The quote specifically says we can only master one parent path. It does not say we cannot master more than one profession. In fact, we know that we can master more than one profession.
    "Gathering is a parent artisan path, along with processing and crafting. Within each of the three parent paths lies different professions. You may only ever master one parent path. But you may spend time mastering each profession within the parent artisan path."
    --- Steven

    What we don't have specific confirmation of, AFAIK, is whether or not we can master a profession in two different parent paths.
    But...

    We have skill points to spend on the crafting skills.
    It sounds like we will have just enough skill points to max all the professions in one parent path.
    Or we can spread the skill points out among professions in two or three parent paths - including being able to max some professions in more than one parent path - but we will never be able to max all the professions in multiple paths.

    But, again, we need specific confirmation on that. AFAIK we don't have a dev quote that covers that much detail.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    swooxie wrote: »
    I think what Dygz meant is you apply the race to like elves can mining certain gems. (correct me if I'm wrong)
    On the other side it will be locked to a node(economic or religion)/location where you can mine it.
    This will bring more variety.
    Like say the dwarfs can't mine the gems on a ore.
    But then the elves can.
    So that means for this purpose you want to have an elf master gatherer.
    Mmmn. I've been thinking more about mobs and trees; not so much about ore.
    The devs want race to be meaningful, so I expect racial progression to have a significant impact on artisan professions.
    Maybe Elves think harvesting hearts is revolting while Orcs love harvesting hearts - so hearts are more likely to drop for an Orc Master Gatherer than for an Elf Master Gatherer.
    Maybe the way a Human cuts down a tree results in a better quality of wood than when a Dwarf cuts down a tree. But, Dwarves mine better quality gems than Humans do.

    I also expect Node progression to have a significant impact on crafting.
    We know that some recipes will only drop from a specific Node (in some cases, Stage and dominant Race may also determine which recipes drop from the quests associated with that Node).
    I expect something similar to be the case with all of the Artisan types.
    So, it may be that Master Gatherers from a specific Node get a bonus to the amount of opals that drop from an opal mine because citizens of that Node are especially good at handling opals, while Master Gatherers from a different Node get a bonus to the amount of amethysts that drop from an amethyst mine.

    I don't think anyone will be locked from mining or harvesting based on race or Node citizenship, but I do expect bonuses for drop chance, amount, quality, etc.
    Same for religious and social organization affiliation.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Throw in seasonal changes, regional environments, day/night cycles the under realm harvesting nodes being depleted and being specific to the above conditions and we have a great deal of variety.

    While the new information is somewhat of a departure from the information we have had for 2 years now it will take some testing to see just how it fleshes out. Let us get our hands on it and provide the feedback to make a system that is fun yet engaging to play with while also feeling rewarding and hopefully providing the interconnection we desire as gatherers/processors/crafters.

    Let's hope we get our hands on it sooner rather than later.
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  • sorcerersorcerer Moderator, Member, Staff
    Greetings fellow crafting fiends. To clarify you may only master a profession if you have achieved the artisan path mastery.

    As I said on discord, we will be testing this heavily during alpha and betas. And it may occur that the profession masteries become limited as well.

    ❤️
  • ziltchziltch Member
    edited August 1
    @GMSteven
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    GMSteven wrote: »
    Greetings fellow crafting fiends. To clarify you may only master a profession if you have achieved the artisan path mastery.

    As I said on discord, we will be testing this heavily during alpha and betas. And it may occur that the profession masteries become limited as well.

    ❤️

    Profession: ex Weaponsmith|Miner|Skinner|Leathertanner etc
    Path: Gathering|Crafting|Processing

    "Only master a profession" is in stark contrast to what was said in that picture.
    Am confused on what is what.
    The simplest yet hardest stat to train is Willpower.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Somewhat confuzzled myself on this one now.

    One new piece of information 100 new questions thrown up by it. :D
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    Based on what Steven just said, my understanding is that we somehow have to achieve Mastery of the parent path before we can master any of the professions in that path. After we achieve the Master Gatherer title, we will be able to start working through whatever we have to do become a master in each of the professions in the Gatherer path.

    So... now we need a clearer idea of what we have to accomplish to become a Master of an Artisan parent path.
  • ziltchziltch Member
    How can you master a Path unless you master a Profession tho? oO
    Thought that was the requirement xD
    But it makes sense if its so
    The simplest yet hardest stat to train is Willpower.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    ziltch wrote: »
    How can you master a Path unless you master a Profession tho? oO
    Thought that was the requirement xD
    But it makes sense if its so

    We really need to see it in action
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Mastery is a title, so could be that we have to complete Journeyman prerequisites before we unlock the Mastery levels.
  • allusirallusir Member
    Either way, I was planning on stealing all my husband's alt character slots (he will only play enough to have one character) + all my alts to have the 15 some odd crafting characters that we thought we might need before... so... it doesn't really matter which way it goes... I'm crafting all the things.

    I do like the idea that smaller guilds will now be able to sustain themselves with fewer people. As far as the long term effects on the economy... I've found most MMOs I've played aren't full of people that focus on crafting enough to go through the "long and labor intensive feat". Heck, most of the people I play with don't even like crafting.

    In FFXIV you could master all professions (combat or crafting) on a single character, but you had to take the time to level ALL of them up. Not everyone did that even though it was an option. I don't see much of a difference between doing it on 3 characters or 9. People that want to master them all will have the alts to do it (either with a second account, or buying more character slots, or whatever the mechanic is).
  • branegamesbranegames Member, Braver of Worlds
    allusir wrote: »
    Either way, I was planning on stealing all my husband's alt character slots (he will only play enough to have one character) + all my alts to have the 15 some odd crafting characters that we thought we might need before... so... it doesn't really matter which way it goes... I'm crafting all the things.

    I do like the idea that smaller guilds will now be able to sustain themselves with fewer people. As far as the long term effects on the economy... I've found most MMOs I've played aren't full of people that focus on crafting enough to go through the "long and labor intensive feat". Heck, most of the people I play with don't even like crafting.

    In FFXIV you could master all professions (combat or crafting) on a single character, but you had to take the time to level ALL of them up. Not everyone did that even though it was an option. I don't see much of a difference between doing it on 3 characters or 9. People that want to master them all will have the alts to do it (either with a second account, or buying more character slots, or whatever the mechanic is).

    I actually hadn't thought about the possibility for smaller guilds to become competitive in regards to this entire situation. Smaller, more dedicated guilds will now be able to compete, which might actually be good for the game.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    edited August 5
    From a related thread:
    I know you were speculating but you won't see more character slots for sale. This was brought up in a conversation about p2convenience and the slippery slope. Steven said that things like buying more inventory or character slots are borderline p2w so would not make an appearance. In a game where the more alts you have gives you more control of crafting and gathering, this is understandable. <Speculation> My guess is 8, but all we really have to go off of is the "a comfortable amount" quote.
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  • I personally love what Steven described. I think the biggest point of clarification we need is what "mastering" a craft means. Does it simply mean capable of learning any recipe in that craft? As dygz describes, there are many many ways that even through access to different recipes "masters" can be different from one another (I suggest we have augments for crafting too, more on that at the end of the post). Personally, I think if the crafting process has some skill-based mini-games or depth in ways to impact the final stats of the product, players can differentiate themselves by their skill from one another, even if they have the exact same recipes.

    People romanticize specialization way too much. You want to have a single player only capable of specializing in bronze elven swords? Sounds cool but it really isn't fun. Depending on the meta, your specialization may be useless. Without a global market your pool of potential buyers is small. Similarly, your suppliers are limited by those in your local market and those who will supply you via caravans and if you're so freaking unique, you provide little demand for people to send caravans your way. If by chance there is 1 other bronze eleven sword specialist in your area, your "uniqueness" just turned into redundancy and competition in the only freaking thing that made you unique. You get the point...
    Azathoth wrote: »
    In all honesty, if you have three alts that master every artisan profession you clearly picked that route for your game time. So I don't see a huge problem.

    Well said!
    ziltch wrote: »
    I am not fine with it, all I can see it doing is that the longer the game stays alive, the more closed off the "economy" will become as more and more people master more and more branches in a Path. Requiring less and less interaction with others to get things crafted or processed for them.

    This is a common assumption which I think is super unwarranted. Interaction won't die just because individual toons can "master" more. People are lazy and with local markets, no fast travel etc there will be demand and reason to trade/interact. The nature of a dynamic world also prevents stagnation of trade routes and supply chains. We need an alpha or beta to see how all of the other game mechanics impact the economy to have a better idea on how the economy and crafting supply/demand looks like, currently such claims are unsubstantiated imo.
    ziltch wrote: »
    It also changes it from "Needing tens of dozens alts" to cover all professions to needing 2 alts (+ main).

    Thank the lord, this was something I thought was the biggest weakness of the crafting system as I originally understood it. If someone wants to focus on crafting as Azathoth says, they should not be forced to create dozens of alts.
    Thinking about this more, one of the side effects of this is that you will potentially only need to bring 1 master gatherer to the hardest dungeons. If you could only master a single profession you would need to bring a master of each profession in order to get the most resources out of it.

    Is this a good or a bad thing? Hard to say really.

    Although this has pros and cons itself, if the devs don't want it to be this way there are easy solutions. Perhaps group crafting can be utilized to enhance the quality or quantity of resources gathered from individual nodes/mobs.

    Personally I'd like the crafting to utilize a similar system to the augments. People seem to love horizontal progression for combat, why not for crafting too? You can augment your mining to increase mineral yield or increase chance of gems found. Or enhance skinning to bias probability of getting one type of leather over another etc. Maybe you can only have some small number of augments to share across all of your gathering skills so you can focus on being mining augmented amongst all the gathering profs. In such a system, being a "master" gatherer for example means you can gather all materials if you have the right tools but you can still do some things better than another "master". Also, you can lock these crafting augments behind reputations, guilds, nodes and all the other places that combat augments are locked behind too, further increasing inter-dependence of various types of character progression.
  • ziltchziltch Member
    edited August 6
    I've read several of your points. And they are quite good.
    I am convinced it's not really a bad thing any more.
    However, that will depend on how "difficult and time consuming" it will be to master everything.
    Too easy and I will still have an issue with it, so we can only wait till we can actually playtest these systems :)

    Thanks for helping to explain your points to me.
    Your points of view are greatly appreciated.
    The simplest yet hardest stat to train is Willpower.
  • Hello lovely ashes community, im the one who asked the question in the first place. its MatzeO not masao as Shaze only heard it.

    Im not that active on the forums and people even messaged me to take my question down because it was all explained in the wiki, they said... i didnt and now im even more pleased to see all of you geeking over my love that is artisanship.

    In "Know your nodes: Scientific node type" we learned that in a level 5 (city stage) scientific node, you can qualify for your artisanship mastery. On level 6 (metropolis stage) you can qualify for the profession mastery. Steven also mentioned that we can achieve mastery through other ways but it would be considerably harder. Just to remind you all that that is a thing.
    Pushing a node to metropolis level will be a the first big hurdle the player base will have to take. Or will some players rush around the obvious path and obtain mastery even before?

    Im also guilty to glorify/romanticize a super deep specialization. maybe because i also played Albion only and crafted Plated Boots for days.

    also about the argument that you can "only do so much with gathering design", the devs mentioned that they liked the resource gathering system in star wars galaxies. That includes one more variable that is quality. so we have:
    Node type
    Landscape (mountains, forests, barren land,...)
    Resource quality
    Player Race

    All will influence gatherable and gathered resources. I wonder if the Library in the scientific node will not only state -Locations and last known quantity of gatherable resources- but also who gathered it and if there is some kind of tool that tells me who that person is.
    cppv
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