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Do not make 90% of the game obsolete

MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2020 in General Discussion
Typicall MMO developers divide their game world and systems into hidden progression paths. For example:
Zone 1: New players
Zone 2: Mid level players
Zone 3: high level players
Zone 4: 1 out of 3 relevant high level dungeons
Zone 5: Endgame dungeon/raid location
Zone 6: Largest and most effective city
etc...etc...

This is not good. It makes many zones obsolete once you out-level them. It makes zones empty after a while. 90% of the game becomes a ghost town since there is no reason to go there.

To fight this, you developers sprinkle different resources all around the different zones and do the same with dungeons. The problem is, in the end, once our characters no longer need the stuff you sprinkle there, nobody will ever go there or use this zone or location anymore. It becomes obsolete.

To solve this, You must make every zone (or atleast most of the zones) relevant in some way or another. You must give max level players a reason to hang out in all parts of the game. It could be different clans and guilds. Or maybe important core farming locations that are a foundation to the economy.

Do not put every relevant piece of content in 10% of the game or just a few zones (like wow does) Do not offer every convenience in a single city. Give us a reason to travel the world. Give us a reason to keep coming back to low/mid level zones for relevant reasons.

You can also have "Lore events" connected to different zones and parts of the world.
It could be special celebrations, festivals, or historic feasts. Every culture and zone could have these, and in turn offer unique gameplay and rewards, be it valueble stuff or cosmetics.

Summary:
Please, do not make most of the zones non-relevant once you outlevel them. Give us reasons to go back. Gives us reasons to explore the world and find new adventures in old places. You make amazing looking zones, give us a reason to go there too.

Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don't see this being a problem with how the nodes are going to work as there is no set area for people like in most MMOs but good point anyway ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hell, Lore Events sound like a good time regardless of the reason. Hit me up with that knowledge
  • I think the way nodes function will help with that.
    Also the main problem I've seen in other mmorpgs for this "Dungeon finder" and such are not in this game (as far as I know). So players need to travel around the world instead of standing in one single hub zone that is the be all and end all.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think the way nodes function will help with that.
    Also the main problem I've seen in other mmorpgs for this "Dungeon finder" and such are not in this game (as far as I know). So players need to travel around the world instead of standing in one single hub zone that is the be all and end all.

    I do like the final fantasy 14 roller duty finder where you can do any dungeon you have access to.
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    I think the way nodes function will help with that.
    Also the main problem I've seen in other mmorpgs for this "Dungeon finder" and such are not in this game (as far as I know). So players need to travel around the world instead of standing in one single hub zone that is the be all and end all.

    I do like the final fantasy 14 roller duty finder where you can do any dungeon you have access to.
    It is usefull, no doubt.
    But it also destoys any resemblance of community as you can randomly draw players for your dungeon run (even worse across servers) without any need to communicate anymore. It makes things faster but it also makes every run a run with people you will never meet again and as such almost nobody talks and from the few that do the umber of jerks is much higher than normal.
    In addition for this thread: it also removes the need to move around the world to visit different dungeons and as such leads to an emptier world.
    Dungeon finder in my eyes is the prime example of a "quality of life improvement" that everyone wants even though it makes the game worse.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    I think the way nodes function will help with that.
    Also the main problem I've seen in other mmorpgs for this "Dungeon finder" and such are not in this game (as far as I know). So players need to travel around the world instead of standing in one single hub zone that is the be all and end all.

    I do like the final fantasy 14 roller duty finder where you can do any dungeon you have access to.
    It is usefull, no doubt.
    But it also destoys any resemblance of community as you can randomly draw players for your dungeon run (even worse across servers) without any need to communicate anymore. It makes things faster but it also makes every run a run with people you will never meet again and as such almost nobody talks and from the few that do the umber of jerks is much higher than normal.
    In addition for this thread: it also removes the need to move around the world to visit different dungeons and as such leads to an emptier world.
    Dungeon finder in my eyes is the prime example of a "quality of life improvement" that everyone wants even though it makes the game worse.

    agreed nothing beets the old sitting around in a tavern talking about a raid
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Do not offer every convenience in a single city.
    If you are in one metropolis and you need to travel to another metropolis to make use of a convenience that is there and not in your metropolis, I would argue that this thing that you are traveling for is no longer a convenience.

    But as others have said, the node system should solve most of the issues presented.

    If I am in a scientific node and I want to buy a large number of items, I would probably travel to an economic node.

    There is also the notion of caravans making parts of the world important and full of life. Caravans mean that if a desired resource spawns in a specific location, not only will the location that the resource has spawned see more activity, but so to will the area between that location and where ever the best location is for that raw material to be worked in to useful items.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2020
    It is normal for you to outlevel certain areas of the game in an RPG, due to the nature of character progression. Of course, in Single Player games this isn't a problem, but it is in MMORPGs. The trick is to give players a valid reason to return to the early parts of the world. I feel that GW2 handles this problem quite well with its crafting. In order to make Ascended level gear (the highest quality max level gear) you need to gather materials from the low level zones. This has 2 effects - firstly, it keeps the low level zones populated because high level players need to farm the low level mats. Second, it helps stimulate the economy because low level materials are still very relevant even years after the launch of the game.

    Also, don't get me started on FFXIV's duty finder roulette. That is a poor solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.
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  • AlluringAlluring Moderator, Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    I don't see this being a problem with how the nodes are going to work as there is no set area for people like in most MMOs but good point anyway ^^

    Nagash is 1000% correct, Areas are not tier based, they fluctuate with the node growth.
    Mobs will be generally be weaker closer to civilization(roads/towns) while the further you go from there the stronger they will be but there is some variety there based on the node level itself.
    You can find the direct quote in this Interview with Steven
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ikcen wrote: »
    Alluring wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I don't see this being a problem with how the nodes are going to work as there is no set area for people like in most MMOs but good point anyway ^^

    Nagash is 1000% correct, Areas are not tier based, they fluctuate with the node growth.
    Mobs will be generally be weaker closer to civilization(roads/towns) while the further you go from there the stronger they will be but there is some variety there based on the node level itself.
    You can find the direct quote in this Interview with Steven

    The right question is how will you fix the levels? As the problem is not there will be weaker and stronger mobs. The problem is the level gap. After a month or few, all the players who started at the beginning will be high level millionaires . And they will get much more experience and fortune than any new player. All of them will PvP or search for high level mobs. Meanwhile the new players will be pushed to chase the old ones. So any area with low level mobs will be empty, and every area with high level mobs will be overcrowded. The real problem is the experience curve and how it will change the player's stats.

    As the game levels, the population in general slowly gains levels.

    As the nodes in the game level up, the average level of the mobs in the game increase.

    This means that as the game progresses, more players will be higher level, and additionally, more content will be a higher level.

    There will still be lower level content for new players to level up on, but there will be more high level content.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ikcen wrote: »
    There is a reason why the high level areas in the most games are not the largest ones.
    Actually, in most games, the level cap area at release is larger than the area for any other level range. It is also the area that is expanded on the most with additional content.

    Every MMO needs a small flow of new people to it to keep the population healthy - this is not something unique to Ashes. This kind of thing is usually a case of game marketing more than anything else. It is where promotions can come in.

    Most games make the leveling curve slightly easier as the game ages, meaning newer players will have an easier time leveling up than the first wave of players did.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Honestly I love returning to old areas that once terrified me at low levels without worry. It feels like I really accomplished something. If all mobs leveled with me it wouldn’t give me as much satisfaction.

    As long as there’s enough content in general that I don’t run out of things to do in the end game, not only do I not mind areas losing their challenge, I look forward to it. And maybe instead you can return to an area to more safely explore it for achievements in ways that you couldn’t effectively do before. Or you can return to farm crafting resources. You don’t need to have challenging enemies to make a place worth revisiting. Or maybe a quest that has you go to a beginner area and spawn something high level to fight (in an enclosed area so it doesn’t slaughter low level people nearby), that’s another reason to return.
     
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Atama wrote: »
    Honestly I love returning to old areas that once terrified me at low levels without worry. It feels like I really accomplished something. If all mobs leveled with me it wouldn’t give me as much satisfaction.

    As long as there’s enough content in general that I don’t run out of things to do in the end game, not only do I not mind areas losing their challenge, I look forward to it. And maybe instead you can return to an area to more safely explore it for achievements in ways that you couldn’t effectively do before. Or you can return to farm crafting resources. You don’t need to have challenging enemies to make a place worth revisiting. Or maybe a quest that has you go to a beginner area and spawn something high level to fight (in an enclosed area so it doesn’t slaughter low level people nearby), that’s another reason to return.

    I'm actually a big fan of games that put high level encounters in low level zones - as long as new players are able to clearly see that these encounters are for high level players.

    EQ2 used to do this with contested avatar encounters. One of the hardest encounters in the game was in a level 10 area - when the level cap was 80. We'd often have an audience of low level characters - a mix of new players and alts - watching us take it on.

    Good times.

    I am also cautiously hopeful that the caravan system will always see large parts of the world being used, and I'm sure a lot of people would rather their freehold be near a low level area rather than a higher level one - even if mobs attacking you isn't an issue, it would probably still be preferred (unless those mobs are a source of materials).
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    noaani wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Honestly I love returning to old areas that once terrified me at low levels without worry. It feels like I really accomplished something. If all mobs leveled with me it wouldn’t give me as much satisfaction.

    As long as there’s enough content in general that I don’t run out of things to do in the end game, not only do I not mind areas losing their challenge, I look forward to it. And maybe instead you can return to an area to more safely explore it for achievements in ways that you couldn’t effectively do before. Or you can return to farm crafting resources. You don’t need to have challenging enemies to make a place worth revisiting. Or maybe a quest that has you go to a beginner area and spawn something high level to fight (in an enclosed area so it doesn’t slaughter low level people nearby), that’s another reason to return.

    I'm actually a big fan of games that put high level encounters in low level zones - as long as new players are able to clearly see that these encounters are for high level players.

    EQ2 used to do this with contested avatar encounters. One of the hardest encounters in the game was in a level 10 area - when the level cap was 80. We'd often have an audience of low level characters - a mix of new players and alts - watching us take it on.

    Good times.

    I am also cautiously hopeful that the caravan system will always see large parts of the world being used, and I'm sure a lot of people would rather their freehold be near a low level area rather than a higher level one - even if mobs attacking you isn't an issue, it would probably still be preferred (unless those mobs are a source of materials).
    I remember a dark elf named Dorn in the desert of Ro in the original EQ which was significantly higher than other mobs. If you got too close to him, he’d chase you all over the zone. It was a pain but also kind of fun. I can see fun in having enemies you need to be careful to avoid. That sort of thing isn’t too unusual in MMOs even today.
     
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