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Will AoC incorporate any blockchain technologies?

24

Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ill tell you why.
    Because people ask for everything and this leads to game studios neglect the game in favour for all the little useless bits and piece that they think adds value to the product. And these annoying bits and pieces come from requrst like these.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    That is the point. WHY does an MMO have to be a closed system? Why is that better than an open system?
    Taylors

    Id rather the game world have as little influence from the outside world as possible. I'm personally not a big fan of any form of an in game cash shop.
    Adding a method for people to make money in the real world through game play breaks the feeling of playing a game and effectively turns a fun past time into a job. At least with streamers that make money from gaming they're entertaining an audience to make money, what you're suggesting would just be a grinding boring mess.
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  • Ill tell you why.
    Because people ask for everything and this leads to game studios neglect the game in favour for all the little useless bits and piece that they think adds value to the product. And these annoying bits and pieces come from requrst like these.

    That is a valid reason to not value my OP, but just say it that way, instead of attacking.

    Consider though, that my asking for blockchain, is because I believe I see where this hobby is going, and to me, by NOT having it, the duration this game will last in the industry will be significantly shorter.

    So we are actually trying to accomplish the same thing.

    Taylors
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 11
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Blockchain is a pretty basic concept with one use in managing crypto / alternate currencies. Enterprise business is increasingly using blockchain to maintain integrity of records with changes coming from a number of external integrated systems. But an MMO is a pretty closed system, so I'm not sure why you would need a blockchain.

    I guess I don't understand the point of the thread..?

    That is the point. WHY does an MMO have to be a closed system? Why is that better than an open system?

    I've played hundreds of games over the years, dozens and dozens of MMORPGs since 1980s, and all that history is gone. Not one item can I show you, that demonstrates that I was there, I had an impact, people knew me and what I accomplished. Those games are gone, and so are all those memories.

    An open system would allow us to take our special items we've earned in these games, and separate them from the game itself, to store however we choose, wherever we choose, even to potentially reuse them in other games.

    I find this incredibly appealing.

    Taylors

    So your idea is the blockchain would store some kind of proof you had obtained the item and you want to be able to show off that item outside of the game, maybe sell that proof of ownership, and maybe bring it into another game, most likely as a cosmetic. At least with ashes, i'd think maybe a little more thought would have to be put into it but I could maybe see a world where people find some kind of value in this kind of thing.
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Blockchain is a pretty basic concept with one use in managing crypto / alternate currencies. Enterprise business is increasingly using blockchain to maintain integrity of records with changes coming from a number of external integrated systems. But an MMO is a pretty closed system, so I'm not sure why you would need a blockchain.

    I guess I don't understand the point of the thread..?

    That is the point. WHY does an MMO have to be a closed system? Why is that better than an open system?

    I've played hundreds of games over the years, dozens and dozens of MMORPGs since 1980s, and all that history is gone. Not one item can I show you, that demonstrates that I was there, I had an impact, people knew me and what I accomplished. Those games are gone, and so are all those memories.

    An open system would allow us to take our special items we've earned in these games, and separate them from the game itself, to store however we choose, wherever we choose, even to potentially reuse them in other games.

    I find this incredibly appealing.

    Taylors

    Got it. This could be a fascinating conversation. See, I’d argue that the ephemeral nature of the game is one of the core elements that makes it a game instead of say work or family. The fact that it isn’t preserved makes it trivial and de-stressing (since it doesn’t matter).

    Interesting perspective that you see it very much the opposite.

    @Sathrago - the screenshot quip made me spit take my water. Lol.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited January 12
    CROW3 wrote: »

    Got it. This could be a fascinating conversation. See, I’d argue that the ephemeral nature of the game is one of the core elements that makes it a game instead of say work or family. The fact that it isn’t preserved makes it trivial and de-stressing (since it doesn’t matter).

    Interesting perspective that you see it very much the opposite.

    @Sathrago - the screenshot quip made me spit take my water. Lol.

    a friend did the same thing to me with a video meme, i would share but its an mp4 and only has a download link. bleh.

    The thing is that he's asking for a game that creates products/assets for players to earn/purchase the legal rights to that can also be ported out of the game and into other games. The problem is that requires games to ALL build the same code language, systems, etc to facilitate this back and forth. The amount of time and effort to get all this working under the hood of an also successful and fun game is not possible at this time.

    Adding blockchain to a video game is like forcing people at your restaurant to run on a treadmill for an hour before they can eat their food. No one cares if you think it's good for them they didn't come to your company for NFTs or Exercise, they came to play a game/eat food. This does not add anything to a game other than another ball and chain that keeps you from your intended experience.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »

    Got it. This could be a fascinating conversation. See, I’d argue that the ephemeral nature of the game is one of the core elements that makes it a game instead of say work or family. The fact that it isn’t preserved makes it trivial and de-stressing (since it doesn’t matter).

    Interesting perspective that you see it very much the opposite.

    @Sathrago - the screenshot quip made me spit take my water. Lol.

    a friend did the same thing to me with a video meme, i would share but its an mp4 and only has a download link. bleh.

    The thing is that he's asking for a game that creates products/assets for players to earn/purchase the legal rights to that can also be ported out of the game and into other games. The problem is that requires games to ALL build the same code language, systems, etc to facilitate this back and forth. The amount of time and effort to get all this working under the hood of an also successful and fun game is not possible at this time.

    Adding blockchain to a video game is like forcing people at your restaurant to run on a treadmill for an hour before they can eat their food. No one cares if you think it's good for them they didn't come to your company for NFTs or Exercise, they came to play a game/eat food. This does not add anything to a game other than another ball and chain that keeps you from your intended experience.

    Actually, it doesn't involve what you are describing, because by making these assets compatible with existing (huge) blockchains, all that work is already done.

    In other words, any game that makes a token or an NFT compatible with the Ethereum blockchain, would be transferable (but not necessarily usable) to any other game/service/site on that blockchain. That is the strength of standards.

    I don't agree with your analogy of the treadmill, or at least, it is no worse a treadmill than just about every game already in existence. If you wish to play these games, and completely ignore the economy, you can do so, the games are still fun (in theory). The difference is, while you play, you are obtaining things of value both in the game, and if you wish, outside of it, whether you care about those assets or not.

    In the end, if a game is fun, people will play it. If it is fun AND you get to keep your work, that's sounds like a bonus to me, not a negative.

    Taylors
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 12
    Consider though, that my asking for blockchain, is because I believe I see where this hobby is going, and to me, by NOT having it, the duration this game will last in the industry will be significantly shorter.

    Taylors

    It's been an interesting read up until your last post above, @Taylors Expansion.

    An assumption that Ashes will have a shorter shelf life (because of non-participation in blockchaining or EFTs) is as close to a slippery slope fallacy as you can get.

    You say you're not a fanboy but ...
  • Azryil wrote: »
    That is the point. WHY does an MMO have to be a closed system? Why is that better than an open system?
    Taylors

    Id rather the game world have as little influence from the outside world as possible. I'm personally not a big fan of any form of an in game cash shop.
    Adding a method for people to make money in the real world through game play breaks the feeling of playing a game and effectively turns a fun past time into a job. At least with streamers that make money from gaming they're entertaining an audience to make money, what you're suggesting would just be a grinding boring mess.

    The potential for it to be as you say, is absolutely there, but I would argue that games are already a grind. That's why we leave them. Devs call it, 'end game content', but what it really translates to is the inability of them to produce content faster than we can play it, and every MMORPG that has ever come out, has suffered from this problem.

    We are fast approaching a time when you WILL be able to play games, and earn a living. Don't tell that to my kids, please. But, just because a game's assets are all owned by the players, does not mean the game is not immersive or fun, which is the argument you are making.

    Taylors
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 12
    Adding a technology only because you think it's the up-and-coming thing is the worst thing you can do for an MMORPG.

    When you add something new without it bringing any actual value to the game itself, that's unhelpful feature creep.
    I tend to live at the cutting edge of gaming (for the last 40 years), and while AoC has some new wrinkles on the MMORPG trope, it's not groundbreaking. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, which is the core attribute all games should have.

    You kind of deflated your own argument here. Your suggestion would involve added costs and delays without making it a better game.

    I get what you want. You're like the person who can't stand to go on a vacation if you can't buy a t-shirt from the gift shop to commemorate your time there. But building something like this will be devoting resources away from the game when there is currently no market for such a thing. It's burning money.
     
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  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    unknown.png

    NFTs, and Tokens, are just two examples of using blockchain. They could have an internal blockchain, for instance, to manage all transactions. In the future, that could be leveraged for those other two.

    Taylors

    I believe when Margaret said this about NFTs, she meant all aspects of blockchain :)
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  • Vaknar wrote: »
    unknown.png

    NFTs, and Tokens, are just two examples of using blockchain. They could have an internal blockchain, for instance, to manage all transactions. In the future, that could be leveraged for those other two.

    Taylors

    I believe when Margaret said this about NFTs, she meant all aspects of blockchain :)

    I greatly appreciate the response.

    Taylors
  • Atama wrote: »
    Adding a technology only because you think it's the up-and-coming thing is the worst thing you can do for an MMORPG.

    When you add something new without it bringing any actual value to the game itself, that's unhelpful feature creep.
    I tend to live at the cutting edge of gaming (for the last 40 years), and while AoC has some new wrinkles on the MMORPG trope, it's not groundbreaking. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, which is the core attribute all games should have.

    You kind of deflated your own argument here. Your suggestion would involve added costs and delays without making it a better game.

    I get what you want. You're like the person who can't stand to go on a vacation if you can't buy a t-shirt from the gift shop to commemorate your time there. But building something like this will be devoting resources away from the game when there is currently no market for such a thing. It's burning money.

    I am curious, have you ever played any games that incorporate what I am describing, or are you responding on theory alone?

    Taylors
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Adding a technology only because you think it's the up-and-coming thing is the worst thing you can do for an MMORPG.

    When you add something new without it bringing any actual value to the game itself, that's unhelpful feature creep.
    I tend to live at the cutting edge of gaming (for the last 40 years), and while AoC has some new wrinkles on the MMORPG trope, it's not groundbreaking. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, which is the core attribute all games should have.

    You kind of deflated your own argument here. Your suggestion would involve added costs and delays without making it a better game.

    I get what you want. You're like the person who can't stand to go on a vacation if you can't buy a t-shirt from the gift shop to commemorate your time there. But building something like this will be devoting resources away from the game when there is currently no market for such a thing. It's burning money.

    I am curious, have you ever played any games that incorporate what I am describing, or are you responding on theory alone?

    Taylors

    What games do this kind of thing?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Adding a technology only because you think it's the up-and-coming thing is the worst thing you can do for an MMORPG.

    When you add something new without it bringing any actual value to the game itself, that's unhelpful feature creep.
    I tend to live at the cutting edge of gaming (for the last 40 years), and while AoC has some new wrinkles on the MMORPG trope, it's not groundbreaking. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, which is the core attribute all games should have.

    You kind of deflated your own argument here. Your suggestion would involve added costs and delays without making it a better game.

    I get what you want. You're like the person who can't stand to go on a vacation if you can't buy a t-shirt from the gift shop to commemorate your time there. But building something like this will be devoting resources away from the game when there is currently no market for such a thing. It's burning money.

    I am curious, have you ever played any games that incorporate what I am describing, or are you responding on theory alone?

    Taylors
    I'm responding in theory. I don't think the games that incorporate this technology are very abundant.

    I'm not opposed to the idea. I'm just opposed to its applicability at this time to AoC. In a number of years, maybe it'll be a big thing. Or maybe it'll be a fad that goes away.

    I remember a number of years ago someone brought up the idea of having drones at an IT meeting at the agency I work for and it brought a number of chuckles, because at the time drones were a novelty and weren't really robust enough to be practical. Today I support a couple of people whose primary jobs are as drone pilots who can do inspections in places that would be dangerous for a human to do in-person. But the suggestion back then was still humorous, because it wouldn't have made any sense at that time.
     
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So you want in-game items tokenized for use outside the game?

    This completely opens the door to P2W strategies, which is what we DON'T want and actively want to fight against. Therefore previous concerns about P2W are completely valid and part of this conversation.

    Don't misunderstand: I totally get why you want to make your in-game items useable beyond the game, however I consider it more important to isolate the in-game economy from external markets, and to reduce the use of black market practices as much as possible.

    The question at stake here is: Do we want Ashes to become a real-world market? My answer is no.

    Steam already offers the services you want, without using Blockchain. Is that not good enough for you?


    Finally, a word about Blockchain.
    Yes Blockchain will revolutionize information exchange, but that has little to do with play-to-earn visionaries - and linking the two concepts only hurts the public perception of Blockchain as a legitimately useful technology. (similar to NFTs and Crypto used like a stock market)

    For a true MMO using blockchain, we're talking about a serverless P2P networked game. But that's not Ashes. (But it is a pretty cool idea)
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you think gaming as a whole is heading towards blockchain, you will be disappointed.

    Some gaming developers will use it, but only if it adds to their bottom line. It will be the 2020's version of lootboxes.

    Gaming developers that want to make good games will avoid blockchain, just as they avoid lootboxes now.

    Have you really researched what you just said?

    Yes.

    I am wondering if you have.

    I mean, even the article you linked started off saying
    Square Enix president says not everyone wants to play video games for fun
    This is the thing. Games based around blockchain are - for the most part - not designed for fun.

    Your idea of taking a weapon from one game to another is just rediculous. It simply can not work, and should not work.

    I don't want some idiot riding their WoW motorbike mount in Ashes, or using their FFXIV over the top particle effects. Different games have different visual styles, and it isn't up to players to mix and match them.

    And this isn't even to mention effects and stats. If I pulled some raid level items from a game that has been around for a decade in to Ashes at launch, explain to.me how that isn't pay to win? Even worse, I could buy items in a game like Archeage and move them over to Ashes.

    What you are talking about is NOT how games using blockchain are goi g to go. They are going to be Second Life type games, where the idea is to make money, not have fun.

    So yeah, I've done my research in to this.

    Have you?
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Who wants their AoC chokobo? Anyone…?
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • maouw wrote: »
    So you want in-game items tokenized for use outside the game?

    This completely opens the door to P2W strategies, which is what we DON'T want and actively want to fight against. Therefore previous concerns about P2W are completely valid and part of this conversation.

    Don't misunderstand: I totally get why you want to make your in-game items useable beyond the game, however I consider it more important to isolate the in-game economy from external markets, and to reduce the use of black market practices as much as possible.

    The question at stake here is: Do we want Ashes to become a real-world market? My answer is no.

    Steam already offers the services you want, without using Blockchain. Is that not good enough for you?


    Finally, a word about Blockchain.
    Yes Blockchain will revolutionize information exchange, but that has little to do with play-to-earn visionaries - and linking the two concepts only hurts the public perception of Blockchain as a legitimately useful technology. (similar to NFTs and Crypto used like a stock market)

    For a true MMO using blockchain, we're talking about a serverless P2P networked game. But that's not Ashes. (But it is a pretty cool idea)

    The irony is that whether we want black market practices or not, all games have them. Gold farmers have plagued these games for 20+ years, so we are not really talking about having what I am describing or not, all we are describing is having it formalized, and on a level playing field.

    But I hear you all, and overwhelming negative response.

    I am comfortable dropping this subject, and I appreciate all your opinions.

    Taylors
  • ConradConrad Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 12
    One would have to be an idiot to think that any block chain bullshit is gonna be in gaming. They are here rn, but after we gamers been too tolerant of (gambling) lootboxes, we gonna rip apart anymore money laundering attempts from devs.

    Can we also abandon this thread? Topic should just die out and not get visibility so we can avoid seeing these types of topics and not have to participate lol
  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member
    edited January 12
    Sathrago wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Blockchain is a pretty basic concept with one use in managing crypto / alternate currencies. Enterprise business is increasingly using blockchain to maintain integrity of records with changes coming from a number of external integrated systems. But an MMO is a pretty closed system, so I'm not sure why you would need a blockchain.

    I guess I don't understand the point of the thread..?

    He basically wants to generate a passive income while playing video games.

    Wow, no, you really don't get it.

    I want my work in these games to be preserved in some way. I want all the effort I put in not to vanish, when the game vanishes.

    I would love to have a place outside these games where the unique items I earned could be showcased, decades after the game was gone.

    You seem to only be looking at the monetary aspect of this technology.

    Taylors

    So have an artist paint a picture with your character in some bad ass armor holding a legendary weapon while riding a dragon. Hang the painting over your fireplace. The whole reason why people get tired of World of Warcraft is that the developer introduces new gear to replace your old gear and continue your journey on the hamster wheel. The most you could hope for in this game is for your character to become infamous. Some people accomplished that in Eve Online and World of Warcraft. No one person is going to own their own castle. Perhaps you might be able to be the head of a trade syndicate by purchasing a seat in a metropolis for an economic node and wield power in that way.

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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don't think these threads should be pushed away and forgotten, because then someone will just make a new one.

    What we should do is mock and shame the people who post them and people will see that it's of no benefit to themselves to garner such terrible opinions about turning every game into a soulless for-profit hack job.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Karthos wrote: »
    I don't think these threads should be pushed away and forgotten, because then someone will just make a new one.

    What we should do is mock and shame the people who post them and people will see that it's of no benefit to themselves to garner such terrible opinions about turning every game into a soulless for-profit hack job.

    Dude you know it never makes a difference. :|
     
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  • Isn’t blockchain that crap that eats more power than an entire city so some suckers think they’re making a good deal spending $200 on what’s basically Monopoly money?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Isn’t blockchain that crap that eats more power than an entire city so some suckers think they’re making a good deal spending $200 on what’s basically Monopoly money?

    Yes. Yes it is.

    it's also the reason building a computer costs twice what it should today, and the reason there are energy shortages in at least two countries that I know of.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 12
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Isn’t blockchain that crap that eats more power than an entire city so some suckers think they’re making a good deal spending $200 on what’s basically Monopoly money?

    You’re thinking of cryptocurrency mining (most commonly Bitcoin). Crytpocurrency is probably the most well-known use of blockchain technology but not the only one, and not what this thread is about.

    Bitcoin is worth a lot now, it’s hardly Monopoly money. However, it is extremely difficult to get and it’s uncertain how valuable it’ll be in the long run. People are constantly predicting a crash, though it hasn’t happened yet.

    Again, though, this thread is about a different use for blockchain. The use suggested in the OP is closer to what is used for NFTs.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »
    So you want in-game items tokenized for use outside the game?

    This completely opens the door to P2W strategies, which is what we DON'T want and actively want to fight against. Therefore previous concerns about P2W are completely valid and part of this conversation.

    Don't misunderstand: I totally get why you want to make your in-game items useable beyond the game, however I consider it more important to isolate the in-game economy from external markets, and to reduce the use of black market practices as much as possible.

    The question at stake here is: Do we want Ashes to become a real-world market? My answer is no.

    Steam already offers the services you want, without using Blockchain. Is that not good enough for you?


    Finally, a word about Blockchain.
    Yes Blockchain will revolutionize information exchange, but that has little to do with play-to-earn visionaries - and linking the two concepts only hurts the public perception of Blockchain as a legitimately useful technology. (similar to NFTs and Crypto used like a stock market)

    For a true MMO using blockchain, we're talking about a serverless P2P networked game. But that's not Ashes. (But it is a pretty cool idea)

    The irony is that whether we want black market practices or not, all games have them. Gold farmers have plagued these games for 20+ years, so we are not really talking about having what I am describing or not, all we are describing is having it formalized, and on a level playing field.

    But I hear you all, and overwhelming negative response.

    I am comfortable dropping this subject, and I appreciate all your opinions.

    Taylors

    Very true - eliminating the black market is basically impossible.
    Still, the game's vision is to combat gold farming and RMT, not to formalize/legitimize it.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    it's pointless to waste time on blockchain tech for Ashes IMO.
    why would they want you to wear your 'NFT MINTED NEW 2022 LEGENDARY RAID DROP GREATSWORD" jpeg in some random metaverse game, when they can get you to login to the game and play it, keep that subscription going and make money from you.

    like
    what?

    Will add on that BC as a technology, in isolation, is a cool concept. I'm not bashing it, but this feels like Fad chasing, which to me is such a weird mentality to bring to a non-play to earn title.
    --

    additional note:
    if you've ever read the novel Overgeared, I believe it's Korean but has translations online all over, it has MMO-style RMT, would show off the depths of how RMT-MMOs COULD go, but just throwing BC into it isn't the solution lol.




    BDO has enough RMT for the genre anyway
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Yeah, please no. Sorry man, but I sincerely hope the developers of this game never even consider that.

    Steven and his team are not concerned with cornering the market and making the most profitable game possible. Yes, profits are a concern, but first and foremost they are developing this game to revive the genre. Reviving the genre doesn’t include doing things like incorporating blockchain so that people who only care about how much they ‘get back’ from their time invested in the game come flooding in and ruin the experience of true mmo fans.

    I will try not to speak for everyone here, but I know the vast majority of folks in the ashes community care about the revival of and preservation of the classic mmorpg experience, not making a profit from their hobby or devs wasting time on systems that aren’t directly related to the in-game experience.

    I am not saying I don’t understand where you are coming from, many people out there want to profit off of their gaming hobby, but I truly believe stuff like that would only come at the expense of what the game is supposed to be about.

    If they even mentioned implementing blockchain technologies or doing NFT’s I personally would drop the game immediately because them declining to participate in those things is one of the main reasons I chose to commit to this game.

    I can almost guarantee they would lose a massive amount of their player-base if they did something like what you talk about. It would only lead inevitably to their game being populated mostly by profiteers and bots.

  • ChillmawChillmaw Member
    edited January 12
    Correct me if im wrong but arnt blockchains essentially ledgers that are constantly checked by computer/servers to make sure their authentic, making them very energy instensive?

    What exactly are the benefits of using blockchain for what your suggsting instead of just chucking a 20 at developer to send you a copy of your character profiles/files associated with items? You get a line of code to reminisce over and can upload to whatever will accept it, without creating a energy/money pit.
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