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Explain to me how this game isn’t ruined by cosmetic MTX.

124

Comments

  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    That’s a bunch of nunsense.
     
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  • I went to confession for absolution and got nun.
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  • palabanapalabana Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    "Please explain to me how buying the ability to look cool doesn’t change the fundamental gameplay and incentive of playing this game?"

    My answer is easy: then don't buy the cosmetics and collect the ones in game. What's the difference? They're paying to dress good. You're fighting and earned an amazing look. At the end of the day, both can enjoy looking good.

    Don't give me that "but the ones I can't get are paywalled" BS because it doesn't matter. Get over it. You either want it or you don't.

    We'll see how many sparkly lions you can see in a server at launch. My best guess is you're gonna see only a few of them. Everyone is spread out among different continents in different servers. The map is huge, don't forget that.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A large variety of visual diversity helps place your character as an individual in the world.

    I do not recall well, but my first MMO, there were a very limited range of classes and gear for each class at top level, and no cash shop. Whilst the lack of visual diversity was great for pvp certainty, in hindsight it was quite ordinary.

    Taste and expectations have moved on.

    If an additional variety of cosmetics than that which is available in-game is available via a cash shop and the additional revenue from sales keep the subscription cost moderate and the gamer`s entertained and keeps it thriving then all for it!
  • I agree with a lot of the concerns in this thread, and it also gives me worries for the launch of the game. One thing Steven had said that really made me facepalm was that he had the art team developing high fantasy from character creation rather than the good stuff coming out after it was earned. There is no character progression from ordinary to hero in this game, your character comes right out of the gate already a high fantasy hero. I have mixed feelings about that because I always speed through the leveling process to get to the end game, but I also enjoy that challenge and character progression.

    In this game, how anyone looks will be completely irrelevant because everyone is going to have completely customized cosmetics that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of equipment they're wearing. In my opinion, this just reinforces the need for investigation and observation skills that I already detailed in the Spies and Intrigue thread. With this kind of cosmetic MTX, being able to investigate someone's equipment is invaluable.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Kiluvian wrote: »
    I agree with a lot of the concerns in this thread, and it also gives me worries for the launch of the game. One thing Steven had said that really made me facepalm was that he had the art team developing high fantasy from character creation rather than the good stuff coming out after it was earned. There is no character progression from ordinary to hero in this game, your character comes right out of the gate already a high fantasy hero. I have mixed feelings about that because I always speed through the leveling process to get to the end game, but I also enjoy that challenge and character progression.

    In this game, how anyone looks will be completely irrelevant because everyone is going to have completely customized cosmetics that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of equipment they're wearing. In my opinion, this just reinforces the need for investigation and observation skills that I already detailed in the Spies and Intrigue thread. With this kind of cosmetic MTX, being able to investigate someone's equipment is invaluable.

    Ye it sounded weird but in reality, having tested the A1, it boiled down to this: your characters dont look like a barefoot peasant. They wear a nice shirt, nice pants and boots. That's all. Dont overthink it.
  • CawwCaww Member
    At this point in the timeline of game play for the MMOxx genre, cosmetics are definitely considered as not pay-to-win but just an extra cash grab, whether needed or not. I'm fine with it and as many have said, don't buy if you don't like it or don't want to help out the game.

    It may even be that it allows the game company to hire extra artist types who do much more than cash shop items.
  • MTX is not earned. Everyone will be able to distinguish between earned rewards and MTX. Other MMOs already have purchased MTX and none of it is taken seriously. If you like a particular armor or look, buy it by all means, support Intrepid. If not, then don't. Intrepid has already said this will not be pay to win. I believe them.
  • DjeffDjeff Member
    edited January 8
    Maybe an item that show real stuff or an option that hide cosmetic effect could be add, it will solve your request like true sight for assassin to see your real stuff before gank attack, or at the reverse an option than can hide or false your stats to suprise enemy. Im bad english but if you mean skin like bdo buff you in cash shop, i don't think they will do this you will pay a suscribe and they said no pay to win.
  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited January 12
    Djeff wrote: »
    Maybe an item that show real stuff or an option that hide cosmetic effect could be add, it will solve your request like true sight for assassin to see your real stuff before gank attack, or at the reverse an option than can hide or false your stats to suprise enemy. Im bad english but if you mean skin like bdo buff you in cash shop, i don't think they will do this you will pay a suscribe and they said no pay to win.

    Why not just an option in menu to hide all cosmetics like albion have?

    Maybe people dont understand why cosmetics are really bad in mmorpgs focused in pvp, but if you want to know try new world, wars are a clown party here tanks and bruisers have all skins with robes like Gandalf, and healers, glasscanons with heavy armor skins....

    And you can say " oh yeh but in AOC they have a buff with gear indicator " well good luck with that in 250vs250 , even in 50vs50 is difficult to look at some weapons, imagine a small buff in a caracter
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ramirez wrote: »

    Why not just an option in menu to hide all cosmetics like albion have?
    Steven has already said no to this.

    He doesn't want people that put effort in to getting cosmetics - or more importantly spend money on cosmetics - only for people to chose to not see them.
  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited January 12
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ramirez wrote: »

    Why not just an option in menu to hide all cosmetics like albion have?
    Steven has already said no to this.

    He doesn't want people that put effort in to getting cosmetics - or more importantly spend money on cosmetics - only for people to chose to not see them.

    So much effort... 20$ cash shop... Really miss the days when powerfull gear was respected, now everyone just thing about cosmetics, fashion shows...
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ramirez wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ramirez wrote: »

    Why not just an option in menu to hide all cosmetics like albion have?
    Steven has already said no to this.

    He doesn't want people that put effort in to getting cosmetics - or more importantly spend money on cosmetics - only for people to chose to not see them.

    So much effort... 20$ cash shop... Really miss the days when powerfull gear was respected, now everyone just thing about cosmetics, fashion shows...

    Not everything will be available in the cash shop, and the best ones (legendary cosmetics) will only be from in-game achievements.

    https://discord.com/channels/256164085366915072/256164085366915072/737639668476280843

    And what do you mean nobody respects "powerful gear" and it's all about "fashion shows"? Do you think someone is really going to care how fancy your breastplate is while blasting fireballs at you trying to kill you?
     
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  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    I totally get your sentiment towards the importance of character appearance as a natural sense of progression. However, some people in this thread have given good insights and opinions on some misconceptions there may be of these monthly cosmetic packs.

    To put it simply, Steven has said many times (here, here, here, here and here, to give a few examples ;)) how these cosmetics will impact the game. To put it simply, by investing in these cosmetics, you are directly helping with funding the development of Ashes of Creation. No BS there :) In addition to that, Steven has been adamant about the goal that in-game achievable and obtainable appearances will be generally equal to and/or greater than anything that can be purchased. This, of course, always comes down to subjective opinion - but it is the mission of our artists and Steven. There are a lot of examples of such cosmetics from our monthly developer update livestreams, if you haven't checked them out yet! :)

    I hope this helps!
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ramirez wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ramirez wrote: »

    Why not just an option in menu to hide all cosmetics like albion have?
    Steven has already said no to this.

    He doesn't want people that put effort in to getting cosmetics - or more importantly spend money on cosmetics - only for people to chose to not see them.

    So much effort... 20$ cash shop... Really miss the days when powerfull gear was respected, now everyone just thing about cosmetics, fashion shows...

    Powerful geat isn't respected for how it looks, it is respected for how it functions.

    I don't see this changing at all.
  • I am an Empyrean, I wear a sexy outfit that goes perfectly with my elf ears, I am so fucking sexy that your eyes can only see the majesty of my sexiness.

    You meet me, I'll kill you.
    What does that mean ?
    I killed you for the sensuality of my outfit bought at the cosmetics store?
    Or will it be all the effort I put into my character to get to the point of being able to kill you?

    I think the answer is clear
    The trips are not only physical, there are mental and spiritual trips.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think the answer is clear
    I killed you for the sensuality of my outfit bought at the cosmetics store?

    Seems right.
     
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  • HasilHasil Member
    edited January 13
    meanwhile they are bending you over backwards with cosmetic MTX which affect gameplay just as much as pay to win.

    You kinda lost me there, pilgrim.
  • PyronusPyronus Member
    edited January 15
    Vaknar wrote: »
    To put it simply, by investing in these cosmetics, you are directly helping with funding the development of Ashes of Creation. No BS there :)

    Hello Vaknar.

    I recently discovered AOC and I am very hopefull! However I am also a bit sceptical which is not surprising considering the practices of other MMO's. There is something you might be able to ease my mind on, so here goes:

    I've read and heard about how the project is funded by Steven and John themselves, and that they don't need the money from the cash shop in order to finish the game. Steven is even telling us to not spend money on it. If that's the case, why is there a cash shop? In what way is the extra money from the cash shop used to help funding development?

    I can think of a few reasons but nothing I come up with justifies the high prices and exclusivity the shop cosmetics give. To be clear this is not per se about the cosmetics themselves. I am just worried about how little I am reading / hearing about how the surpluss shop revenue is used, as apparently it's not needed in order to deliver a finished product.

    If other readers feel obliged to answer my question, feel free to do so.

  • Pyronus wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    To put it simply, by investing in these cosmetics, you are directly helping with funding the development of Ashes of Creation. No BS there :)

    Hello Vaknar. I recently discovered AOC and I am very hopefull! However I am a bit sceptical, especially when it comes to MMO's (something to do with being completely letdown by other MMO's, you know the drill...). There is something you might be able to ease my mind on, so here goes:

    I've read and heard about how the project is funded by Steven and John themselves, and that they don't need the money from the cash shop in order to finish the game. Steven is even telling us to not spend money on it. If that's the case, why is there a cash shop? In what way is the extra money from the cash shop used to help funding development?

    I can think of a few reasons but nothing I come up with justifies the high prices and exclusivity the shop cosmetics give. To be clear this is not per se about the cosmetics themselves. I am just worried about how little I am reading / hearing about how the surpluss shop revenue is used, as apparently it's not needed.

    If other readers feel obliged to answer my question as well, feel free to do so.

    The game will be finished when it is finished. Steven is funding the money from his own funds and the money raised with Kickstarter. The game may come with 20 planned features. The money from preorders and the cosmetic shop allows him to create a richer game. Perhaps now there are 25 features in the game instead of 20. Alternatively, there are more NPC, creatures, buildings in the game because they can hire more graphic artists to draw additional assets instead of reusing or recoloring assets. So, the extra revenue makes its a more in-depth richer experience for everyone. To be fair to the Kickstarter and early backers they are charging the same amount of money to people like me who just purchased the Voyager Plus package and wish to participate in the Alpha to make this an awesome game. The monthly subscription will keep the servers running and the content flowing. So, as Steven mentioned, if you skeptical about the game wait till it comes out and play it. If you want to partner with us now, go ahead and preorder. There is no pay to win and we all start even on the first day of release. The only thing people in the alpha and beta will have is knowledge of the game world that new people will have to obtain. So, we may know where we want to settle in the world with the nodes based on our goals for the game.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Pyronus wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    To put it simply, by investing in these cosmetics, you are directly helping with funding the development of Ashes of Creation. No BS there :)

    Hello Vaknar.

    I recently discovered AOC and I am very hopefull! However I am also a bit sceptical which is not surprising considering the practices of other MMO's. There is something you might be able to ease my mind on, so here goes:

    I've read and heard about how the project is funded by Steven and John themselves, and that they don't need the money from the cash shop in order to finish the game. Steven is even telling us to not spend money on it. If that's the case, why is there a cash shop? In what way is the extra money from the cash shop used to help funding development?

    I can think of a few reasons but nothing I come up with justifies the high prices and exclusivity the shop cosmetics give. To be clear this is not per se about the cosmetics themselves. I am just worried about how little I am reading / hearing about how the surpluss shop revenue is used, as apparently it's not needed in order to deliver a finished product.

    If other readers feel obliged to answer my question, feel free to do so.
    I assume you've read this already, but in case you haven't...

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios/faqs#project_faq_206612

    This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible.

    So as per the FAQ in the original Kickstarter project, all of the money they receive from the cash shop and from the crowd funding (Kickstarter and the Summer crowdfunding done after that) goes toward "adding features whenever possible". As an example, look at all of the stretch goals from Kickstarter:

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    Every single one of the items above was made possible by Kickstarter. If they hadn't received enough funding, they wouldn't have enough money to devote resources (staff, equipment, and so on) to include them.

    The cash shop is somewhat self-sustaining. The items sold there are unique appearances. Costumes, ships, pets, buildings, caravans, mounts, and so on. While the items purchased are only available to players who buy them during their limited availability, those models can be re-used in the game for the environment and NPCs. And the money for what you buy goes into funding that stuff.

    So basically, the more people spend, the more money they have to fill up the world. And then there are other extras... They have repeatedly announced the intent to create a mobile app that will allow players the ability to do things from a device while not actually playing the game. Get event notifications, perform freehold upkeep tasks, even play tavern games with other players. That money has to come from somewhere.

    So the basic idea is that the cash shop isn't there to make the game possible. It's to make it better. Which is a good thing... They can't rely on cash shop income like they can from income sources like subscriptions. A subscription is a constant flow of money each month from each player. The cash shop income is subject to the fickle nature of gamers and what they like and don't like. So it's nice to have a core, steady flow of money to make sure the core systems are developed and the servers are maintained, while the extra you get from the cash shop can go toward extra stuff.
     
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  • There is a new video with Steven and the MMORPG.com website. They briefly touch on the cosmetics in the video.

  • Thanks for your elaborate answers. The cash shop money going to "should haves" and "would like to haves" was among my initial thoughts and to me is a valid reason to earn extra money. However I am still sceptical about the way interpid has approached this. I will elaborate on this.

    The Kickstarter is clear on what it's purpose is and where the money goes to. And allthough there are very cool kickstarter perks that I'm jealous of, I am fine with this practice as it's transparent and in line with the mantra of making MMO's great again. I'm sure it was also used to gauge interest, which is also a good thing.

    The cash shop however, is not very transparent on what it does for the company and the game. Assuming the extre revenue goes to enhancing the game beyond the basics seems logical, but is an assumption nonetheless. Unless I've missed something, it's not clarified what the money does other than to "help develop the game", which is a vague statement, unlike the kickstarter.

    Let's assume the cash shop revenue is indeed used to enhance the game beyond the basics. Why make a system that uses high prices and high exclusivity? This model preys on people who have fear on missing out, collectors and players who like to stand out using visuals. Why not give people the option to buy some skins for 10$ each, up to 10 unique skins that dont rotate? It has the same effect but doesnt use questionable selling tactics. I can understand the price for entering alpha and beta, but you could just make this an individual purchase. Testing a game like this is a reward on its own.

    Long story short, I feel like the way the cash shop is set up goes against what Interpid and AOC stand for, as there are alternative ways of getting revenue to enhance the game beyond its basics but don't use exclusivity combined with high prices or fear on missing out tactics. this combined with the lack of transparency on what the cash shop money is used for has given me doubts.

    Sorry for being stoic about this, but I have thought about this quite a bit and am simply trying to understand by getting insights from other people, as I can't understand on my own.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Pyronus wrote: »
    The cash shop however, is not very transparent on what it does for the company and the game. Assuming the extre revenue goes to enhancing the game beyond the basics seems logical, but is an assumption nonetheless. Unless I've missed something, it's not clarified what the money does other than to "help develop the game", which is a vague statement, unlike the kickstarter.

    Why do they need to do this?

    Revenue from the cash shop is just revenue. It goes in to the same bank account as revenue from subscriptions (well, eventually), and is used to run the game, as well as expand it.

    No AAA MMO can survive on a $15 subscription alone. Every other game of similar scope has either a box cost, that Ashes doesn't have, or an aggressive cash shop.

    As such, money from the cash shop goes towards things like bandwidth, power, leases, wages, and other such business expenses - just as money from our subscriptions eventually will.

    I am unsure why you think there should be any detail at all on Intrepids operating expenses.
  • PyronusPyronus Member
    edited January 15
    I failed to quote :P ignore this post
  • PyronusPyronus Member
    edited January 15
    I failed to quote :P ignore this post

  • PyronusPyronus Member
    edited January 15
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am unsure why you think there should be any detail at all on Intrepids operating expenses.

    Because for a game and studio that listens to the community very closely, and is also very transparent about it's choices and direction, it seems odd that there is a lack of info and transparency about the cash shop , which the community didnt ask for in the first place and uses practices that raise questionmarks.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Pyronus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am unsure why you think there should be any detail at all on Intrepids operating expenses.

    Because for a game and studio that listens to the community very closely, and is also very transparent about it's choices and direction, it is odd that there is a lack of info and transparency about something the community didnt ask for in the first place, and uses practices that raise questionmarks.

    The cosmetic only cash shop has been a simple fact of this game since the original kickstarter. We have known about it for very nearly 5 years now.

    It was a part of this game before the community was.

    That is about as transparent as you can get.

    I still do not understand the complaint.
  • CawwCaww Member
    Pyronus wrote: »
    the cash shop , which the community didnt ask for in the first place and uses practices that raise questionmarks.

    The cash shop is so simple, limited and straight-forward that there are no questionable practices.

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