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Vaporware ala Chronicles of Elyria?

Does anyone think this is going to see the light of day? Great concept and this was very interesting 2-3 years ago.

Comments

  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited July 2022
    TreVerity wrote: »
    Does anyone think this is going to see the light of day?

    Yes.

    Keep in mind that any product in development always has the risk of not releasing. In 2002, there was plenty of speculation on WoW being vapor.

    I’ve been following this project for close to five years, there’s been steady progress over that time, with some recent surges. So, signs are pointing positive.

    There’s no risk is joining the forums, hanging out, and joining the conversation. I imagine given enough time you’ll be able to answer your own question.

    Welcome to the fray. 😉
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    TreVerity wrote: »
    Does anyone think this is going to see the light of day? Great concept and this was very interesting 2-3 years ago.

    No it's definitely vaporware. If we had some monthly updates perhaps, where they showcase the progress, or even if they at some point had a playable alpha we could have tried, I would start believing this game would ever come out. But alas, we have had nothing like that, so this is definitely vaporware.

    Edit: Ok that came off a little more snarky than intended :smile: Yes, the game will release unless something extreme happens. Enjoy the ride to release while it lasts.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    Does anyone think this is going to see the light of day? Great concept and this was very interesting 2-3 years ago.

    No it's definitely vaporware. If we had some monthly updates perhaps, where they showcase the progress, or even if they at some point had a playable alpha we could have tried, I would start believing this game would ever come out. But alas, we have had nothing like that, so this is definitely vaporware.

    lol. That said, someone who hasn't checked in in 2-3 years might not be aware of all of these things, so, to be clear: Nerror's point is that we have had all of these things. MMO development often takes 6-8 years, and we have no particularly strong signs that Ashes will be vaporware.
  • TreVerityTreVerity Member
    edited July 2022
    Thanks, I have resorted to playing everquest project 1999 while waiting on this and Pantheon. Playing eq p99 made me realize how much more fun it used to be before all the quality of life features made it so mindless. I hope AOC ponders that aspect too. Things have to matter, there needs to be consequences, etc, etc. I have not played eq in 20 years. I have hopped to the next new thing over and over. but even after 20 years, (ignoring the graphics) eq (p99 version) still does it the way it should be done. Not really sure why I made this an eq commercial, but its really about the play style.
  • SongRune wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    Does anyone think this is going to see the light of day? Great concept and this was very interesting 2-3 years ago.

    No it's definitely vaporware. If we had some monthly updates perhaps, where they showcase the progress, or even if they at some point had a playable alpha we could have tried, I would start believing this game would ever come out. But alas, we have had nothing like that, so this is definitely vaporware.

    lol. That said, someone who hasn't checked in in 2-3 years might not be aware of all of these things, so, to be clear: Nerror's point is that we have had all of these things. MMO development often takes 6-8 years, and we have no particularly strong signs that Ashes will be vaporware.

    The only people who refer to games as "vaporware" are usually people who know too well the state of Ashes and stalk the MMORPG subreddit waiting to drop the proverbial turd on it.

    So I can understand the response when you come onto the forums and word a post exactly like this.

    The only reason we get skeptical is because of the vocal response of the MMO community, which is a shame!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Risk v Reward
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The big difference between COE and AOC is COE spent their Kickstarter cash and folded. AOC on the other hand has probably spent 10x the amount they raised on Kickstarter.

    COE also never showed actual in game video or had an alpha while AOC has done both.

    The jury is still out on how good the finished product will be but we'll 100% get a game. I personally have confidence in the team to produce a quality game based on what we've seen so far. It's more of a question of when then if for me.

    The only real question I have about how good the launched product will be is does intrepid have the budget left if it takes 5+ more years. Being a mostly privately funded project with 100+ people on their payroll has got to be expensive. Hopefully for the sake of Steven and his partners wallet more people start buying alpha/beta packs once alpha 2 launches.
  • WarthWarth Member
    @TreVerity

    Offering Vapoware really only makes sense when you Incoming During your development is bigger than the costs you have.

    Like CoE for example, he barely had any production costs which were covered by the funding and he was able to pocket the rest.

    When you have 100 - 200 employees, which costs you many Million $ p.a. It would be stupid to have it be vapoware lol.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited July 2022
    Warth wrote: »
    @TreVerity

    Offering Vapoware really only makes sense when you Incoming During your development is bigger than the costs you have.

    Like CoE for example, he barely had any production costs which were covered by the funding and he was able to pocket the rest.

    When you have 100 - 200 employees, which costs you many Million $ p.a. It would be stupid to have it be vapoware lol.

    Where is your proof there is 100-200 employees working on that game? Or are you not talking about CoE?
  • WarthWarth Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    @TreVerity

    Offering Vapoware really only makes sense when you Incoming During your development is bigger than the costs you have.

    Like CoE for example, he barely had any production costs which were covered by the funding and he was able to pocket the rest.

    When you have 100 - 200 employees, which costs you many Million $ p.a. It would be stupid to have it be vapoware lol.

    Where is your proof there is 100-200 employees working on that game? Or are you not talking about CoE?

    talking about Ashes

    It is known that the boss on CoE pocketed all the funds.
  • Warth wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    @TreVerity

    Offering Vapoware really only makes sense when you Incoming During your development is bigger than the costs you have.

    Like CoE for example, he barely had any production costs which were covered by the funding and he was able to pocket the rest.

    When you have 100 - 200 employees, which costs you many Million $ p.a. It would be stupid to have it be vapoware lol.

    Where is your proof there is 100-200 employees working on that game? Or are you not talking about CoE?

    talking about Ashes

    It is known that the boss on CoE pocketed all the funds.

    Ya i don't understand how any can make a comparison you don't have that many people working as well as producing content every month (with plenty of it we don't see as well). Had arguments with my guild last year, though its just people being overly skeptical but i suppose its fair.
  • How are we feeling about things now?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    TreVerity wrote: »
    How are we feeling about things now?

    Decent. Did you see the Mage Showcase stream?

    There were some sweet cows.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Still positive.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • y
    Azherae wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    How are we feeling about things now?

    Decent. Did you see the Mage Showcase stream?

    There were some sweet cows.

    No, I have not taken the time. I thought this game was coming out way prior to the current time table, and I honestly wonder how relevant it will even be 3-5 years from now. I wish I had not heard of this game back in 2017-18.Like if I just heard about it this year, I might have more hope. But ,they had a playable demo of the pvp back in 2018 and it felt like things were not far from being done, then poof, nothing else for 5 years. I feel like this will not make it. So I come back every so often, hoping to be wrong... I don't have a lot of faith any more in the genre. Too many stories like this one where they hype you up with their vision, sell you the early access package, and then deliver subpar games, if they deliver at all. A year ago I started feeling this way about AOC due to the lack of progress to a beta. At this point I just have it in my favorites to check for an update. Starting to feel like Pantheon is going the same way. Look what happened with Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Everquest 3 sold me on a 200.00 package and then caved on it, but let me keep the Trailblazer flag to run around eq2 waiving to remind me of their pickpocketing skills.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    TreVerity wrote: »
    y
    Azherae wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    How are we feeling about things now?

    Decent. Did you see the Mage Showcase stream?

    There were some sweet cows.

    No, I have not taken the time. I thought this game was coming out way prior to the current time table, and I honestly wonder how relevant it will even be 3-5 years from now. I wish I had not heard of this game back in 2017-18.Like if I just heard about it this year, I might have more hope. But ,they had a playable demo of the pvp back in 2018 and it felt like things were not far from being done, then poof, nothing else for 5 years. I feel like this will not make it. So I come back every so often, hoping to be wrong... I don't have a lot of faith any more in the genre. Too many stories like this one where they hype you up with their vision, sell you the early access package, and then deliver subpar games, if they deliver at all. A year ago I started feeling this way about AOC due to the lack of progress to a beta. At this point I just have it in my favorites to check for an update. Starting to feel like Pantheon is going the same way. Look what happened with Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Everquest 3 sold me on a 200.00 package and then caved on it, but let me keep the Trailblazer flag to run around eq2 waiving to remind me of their pickpocketing skills.

    Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

    From the perspective of those who were 'invested' enough to actually give them money already, things are still fine. "Relevance at release" might be a bit harder to believe in for some, but I don't think most people that would answer you think 'the game won't release' or anything like that.

    And since the Creative Director keeps saying 'don't give us money unless you really believe', I'll suggest the same to you.

    From what they've been saying, if it does come out, it will probably be 'big' (at least in the sense that you will definitely hear about it) so I suggest maybe 'catch up on the very latest stuff and see if the gameplay looks good for you'. If not, come back in another year or so in case it changed.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Be sure to check out the VODs of our past monthly livestreams, so you can stay tuned with the open development progress we've made toward our next testing milestone!

    You can check out those VODs here: https://www.youtube.com/@AshesofCreation
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  • Azherae wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    y
    Azherae wrote: »
    TreVerity wrote: »
    How are we feeling about things now?

    Decent. Did you see the Mage Showcase stream?

    There were some sweet cows.

    No, I have not taken the time. I thought this game was coming out way prior to the current time table, and I honestly wonder how relevant it will even be 3-5 years from now. I wish I had not heard of this game back in 2017-18.Like if I just heard about it this year, I might have more hope. But ,they had a playable demo of the pvp back in 2018 and it felt like things were not far from being done, then poof, nothing else for 5 years. I feel like this will not make it. So I come back every so often, hoping to be wrong... I don't have a lot of faith any more in the genre. Too many stories like this one where they hype you up with their vision, sell you the early access package, and then deliver subpar games, if they deliver at all. A year ago I started feeling this way about AOC due to the lack of progress to a beta. At this point I just have it in my favorites to check for an update. Starting to feel like Pantheon is going the same way. Look what happened with Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Everquest 3 sold me on a 200.00 package and then caved on it, but let me keep the Trailblazer flag to run around eq2 waiving to remind me of their pickpocketing skills.

    Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

    From the perspective of those who were 'invested' enough to actually give them money already, things are still fine. "Relevance at release" might be a bit harder to believe in for some, but I don't think most people that would answer you think 'the game won't release' or anything like that.

    And since the Creative Director keeps saying 'don't give us money unless you really believe', I'll suggest the same to you.

    From what they've been saying, if it does come out, it will probably be 'big' (at least in the sense that you will definitely hear about it) so I suggest maybe 'catch up on the very latest stuff and see if the gameplay looks good for you'. If not, come back in another year or so in case it changed.

    I went ahead and watched the video showcasing the mage. The combat looks pretty great! See you in about a year!
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited May 2023
    As a CoE survivor (wasn't in for any money fortunately, just emotional investment) I can safely say AoC is not on the same planet. AoC puts out more tangible progress weekly the CoE would every year. CoE never showed a single second of live gameplay, everything was pre-rendered. Most people do not realize how common pre-rendering of 'previews' are in the game industry and how easy it is to fake development.

    My assessment of why CoE imploded was that Caspian had absolutely no skills as a producer. I worked briefly in the game industry doing UI programming and got to see how important producers are for successful software development, they keep a project on track, find and correct where there is slippage and prevent feature creep from the designers from endangering the project.

    Caspian on the other hand would constantly gut and major underlying engine code effectively resetting his team to square one. At the same time in had no ability to set or communicate timelines internally or externally and would reportedly just pass on the expected completion dates that his developers would give to the public with no padding and then announce delays on the promised delivery date despite having known for weeks that it was going to be missed. You can imagine how terrible it must have been to work for such a person. Caspian was a creative guy with some very nice ideas but ultimately sabotaged himself by refusing to hire a proper producer to discipline his own excesses. Basically, Caspian was to CoE as Elon Musk is to Twitter.

    I'm not familiar with AoC upper management but they clearly did not fall into as similar hole.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Lodrig wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with AoC upper management but they clearly did not fall into as similar hole.
    They did. But Steven saw that they did and hired a good producer. That's kinda why we're several years behind the initial promised release date and why we aren't getting any promises anymore (well, relatively speaking). So Ashes wasn't too far from CoE, but it kept moving away farther and farther with time.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Lodrig wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with AoC upper management but they clearly did not fall into as similar hole.
    They did. But Steven saw that they did and hired a good producer. That's kinda why we're several years behind the initial promised release date and why we aren't getting any promises anymore (well, relatively speaking). So Ashes wasn't too far from CoE, but it kept moving away farther and farther with time.

    Oh, sorry was not aware of that history, was just going off the present pattern which looked productive, how long ago did the professional producer come in?
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited May 2023
    TreVerity wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Decent. Did you see the Mage Showcase stream?
    No, I have not taken the time. I thought this game was coming out way prior to the current time table, and I honestly wonder how relevant it will even be 3-5 years from now. I wish I had not heard of this game back in 2017-18.Like if I just heard about it this year, I might have more hope. But ,they had a playable demo of the pvp back in 2018 and it felt like things were not far from being done, then poof, nothing else for 5 years.

    As someone who wasted some money on Camelot Unchained and wasn't surprised or disappointed, I think this mindset is incredibly immature. They make it fairly clear to you in every presentation that the project may basically end up taking a decade, and yet here you are expecting to be surprised by a launch around the corner every time you happen to think about the game again.
    Just how many times can you hear "It's done when it's done" without realising that you have to find something else to spend your energy on if the development itself isn't fulfilling for you to watch?

    As far as "relevancy" at launch is concerned, if the game is good enough, it will change the landscape of what's relevant. And if it's not good enough to impress people 5 years from now, it wouldn't be that big of a benefit to you as a consumer if you got to play that game today anyway.
    The playerbase who's only in it for flashy animations at the height of technological advancements is it's own worst enemy. They will never be served a community-building, engaging MMO, because the scale of good MMO development will always cause the genre to lag behind by a fair bit.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Oh, sorry was not aware of that history, was just going off the present pattern which looked productive, how long ago did the professional producer come in?
    Iirc 2019 or somewhere there? @Noaani you've been here a long time, do you remember when they got the producer?
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2023
    They have hired multiple producers in the intervening time. Intrepid has had stumbles to be sure, and challenges. Nothing unexpected during development by a new startup studio.

    To the OP and others trying to compare this to COE, it is weaksauce at best. Jeremy Walsh never put out anything but words to support the money he took from his community. At the end he gave them store bought assets with some sort of on the rails demo that game development intern could put out in a week to try and put off the eventual lawsuit, he then went to work on Kingdoms of Elyria, a game none of his backers asked for or was needed in Unity, to give him something to show a judge that he was still working on a game, and thus could not be charged with fraud. If you want a chronicle of this (pun intended) I suggest looking at the various videos Kira has put out covering it over the years.

    Ashes has produced iteration after iteration. I have tested in every iteration that Ashes has put out externally. I have a couple hundred hours in an actual game. While it won't be the final "release" version of that game, it is disingenuous at best to try and compare the two.
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  • i REALLY wanted to play COE, ugh so sad it didn't happen. in fact, I found out about nw and aoc while looking for info on COE hahaha. someone needs to make a game like coe or caspian needs to finish and launch it ugh
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    Same, the 'vision' of CoE was good, I particularly felt the ~1 year character lifespan with inherited property and skill buffs was a brilliant idea as it would allow for a lower stress skill progression system like that of EVE online while soft capping power levels and providing an alternative to monthly subscription models. Maybe someone will revive that idea in the future. For the time being AoC is the last best hope for an indie MMO.
  • RavelRavel Member
    I hope this game will be released some day. But I will not be checking on it on a daily basis. That would be just too exhaustive for me.
    The verb, not the composer name.
  • truenoirtruenoir Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ashes is going to be a great game as someone who played during the alpha I have no fear that it will be vaporware. Honestly too im glad AOC hasn't adopted a rush release it makes sense that any game that hasn't spent atleast 7 years building a mmorpg is probably going to flop. Problem with most is they have all these great systems planned but as the game developers attempt to program them they realize the budget needed to be 10x what they planned.
    Aoc has shown us every stage of development its really the last hope for mmorpg for a lot of us. Even if there was another game to compete they would be starting from now. And indie games won't meet the players standards or have the development team for it. But I know you guys are dying for a game but be glad development team is going for quality over quantity. They could have choose a quick 5 year turn over and had less then 40% of all promises like black desert or half of the games released. FF14 is still going strong but the game was garbage when it released and the storyline being jrpg style is torture so lots of people pay to skip it. So it really isn't a contender for fun replayability compared to what Aoc is offering. Just some things to consider. Also if you don't want to purchase anything you don't have to here. I have and I don't regret it but I see a valuable investment for mmo future.
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