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Throne and Liberty systems similar to AoC & Their twist on them

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  • Azherae wrote: »
    Can you tell me why you think that the players who want Always On Open World PvP would 'settle for' this, though?
    Like I said, majority of their gameplay would most likely be spent in the "dangerous" areas, so I personally don't think that they'd care about a few newbs running through the hills.

    I'm obviously basing this purely on my experience in L2, where the majority of people would just run past the lower lvl parts of a location w/o disturbing the people who were farming them. While there were definitely cases where if someone saw a flagged player there they'd immediately attack them, in my experience those were somewhat rare purely because that'd be a loss of resources (hp/mana/cd/pots) or it would just be more dangerous to be flagged when you finally reach your preferred spot.

    And like you said, considering that those fields will probably be quite barren, I really don't see why people would care about the weaklings that populate them.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    The use of the word that got translated to 'fields' specifically implies that Dungeons and areas around Possession Stones and Guild Objectives other than those, are NOT safe.

    Yeah, it's hard to know what was lost in translation with words like "fields" that they were using. The game could definitely reel me back in though if it has enough meaningful and frequent pvp content.

    Fear not! For I am here!

    Note, I do not speak Korean, I have a language deconstructor though.

    The word used is closer to 'plains' in the standard understanding, for those who care.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Can you tell me why you think that the players who want Always On Open World PvP would 'settle for' this, though?
    Like I said, majority of their gameplay would most likely be spent in the "dangerous" areas, so I personally don't think that they'd care about a few newbs running through the hills.

    I'm obviously basing this purely on my experience in L2, where the majority of people would just run past the lower lvl parts of a location w/o disturbing the people who were farming them. While there were definitely cases where if someone saw a flagged player there they'd immediately attack them, in my experience those were somewhat rare purely because that'd be a loss of resources (hp/mana/cd/pots) or it would just be more dangerous to be flagged when you finally reach your preferred spot.

    And like you said, considering that those fields will probably be quite barren, I really don't see why people would care about the weaklings that populate them.

    I would figure they would care about the ability of a target opponent to 'escape into a Safe Zone'.

    I always thought this was the thing people cared about in this case. 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction' (as opposed to just having a consequence or penalty).
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    I would figure they would care about the ability of a target opponent to 'escape into a Safe Zone'.

    I always thought this was the thing people cared about in this case. 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction' (as opposed to just having a consequence or penalty).
    Ah, that's an understandable assumption. But it barely applies to me cause one of the biggest "attractions" in L2 were particular gates of cities (cities were safe zones), where people would spend literal hours just baiting each other into pvp by step in and out of the safe zone while being flagged.

    But yeah, I definitely see how that might be an issue, though I think its severity would depend on how far you gotta go from a POI to reach the safe zone. If it's right outside the dungeon entrance or the open world POI is super small then there definitely might be some issues with that.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I would figure they would care about the ability of a target opponent to 'escape into a Safe Zone'.

    I always thought this was the thing people cared about in this case. 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction' (as opposed to just having a consequence or penalty).
    Ah, that's an understandable assumption. But it barely applies to me cause one of the biggest "attractions" in L2 were particular gates of cities (cities were safe zones), where people would spend literal hours just baiting each other into pvp by step in and out of the safe zone while being flagged.

    But yeah, I definitely see how that might be an issue, though I think its severity would depend on how far you gotta go from a POI to reach the safe zone. If it's right outside the dungeon entrance or the open world POI is super small then there definitely might be some issues with that.

    Well, from the video, they really leaned into the verticality. The dungeon they showed seemed to be at least 7 'full levels' deep. No way you're getting to a fully safe zone from anywhere deeper than level 2 without someone being able to stop you, bird transformation or not.

    Also seriously? Hours?

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised given my FG opponents though, so nvm...
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Also seriously? Hours?

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised given my FG opponents though, so nvm...
    Yep, and it'd be all kinds of lvls too. You'd have top lvl dudes coming there to just mess around with the newbies, but also the newbs trying to gang up on the high lvl people and sometimes even running around the entire city wall just to try and attack them from the side (cause you'd usually pay attention only to the gates).

    Here's even a stream of nearly 2 hours of pvping there :D (after 20:00)
    https://youtu.be/rRlqrssYTpI?t=1201
  • Asgerr wrote: »
    Throne and Liberty is an MMO that should release this year, and I find it has a lot of similar systems to what Ashes is aiming for.
    I will perhaps play it once it comes out as to get a feel for what works there and what doesn't and relay the information here.

    One of the interesting added system they have it the Evil Deeds system. It's basically AoC's corruption for PKing, other players.

    What TL has added as a different twist to it, is that PKs occurring at night, do not incur into Evil Deeds points being gained. Potentially under the fantasy that a dagger in the night is of unknown origin.

    Do you think this could be an interesting option to add to AoC? If yes, how do you think it slots in and with what limitations?




    Leaving this video by Force Gaming on Youtube. Could be a source for further discussion on the systems and ideas which you think could work with AoC's currently projected spectrum of systems.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sf3gh3-C4&ab_channel=ForceGaming

    There are tons of great ideas in TL. But keep in mind that on this forum there is a minority of talkative people who will enjoy automatically rejecting any proposal. It is the childish culture of contradiction.

    I love the idea of varying levels of corruption depending on whether it's day or night. I made a post about it.

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54781/free-pk-corruption-night-in-game#latest
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2022
    Other than being the same genre obviously, I really see very few similarities between TL and Ashes other than in a very broad sense of the word. Sure, PvE and PvP/castle sieges and bosses and dungeons, and potentially having to fight over some of them. But that describes a lot of MMORPGS. Guilds fighting over control of these Possession Stones are a far cry away from the node system in Ashes. Not even in the same ballpark (or city, or even country). The class system is clearly very different, and the combat seems a lot more static, with big flashy effects hiding the static nature of it. Maybe that's not the intent, and they just like big, blinding screen effects.

    I was really hoping it would be much closer to Ashes than what that dev video showed. It might still be an ok game to pass the time with, if NCSOFT doesn't kill it with P2W and P2Convenience (I am pressing X here), but I truly don't see this game being any sort of competition to people who want Ashes, or just crave a fix from a game with similar features. That makes me a little sad.
  • I started the director's preview video with quite tamed expectations and was still left somewhat disappointed...

    Things i liked:
    *Their already spoken environment adaptability system.
    *Few frames Active Defense with different outcomes depending on the weapon, very nice tool with potential for skill expression.

    Things i disliked:
    *Few skills Weapon-Bound Classes (No True Classes)[New World Flashbacks intensifies]
    *Not a true Open World PvP, game, as the most of the places are straight up safe zones. alongside the statement "There is no chance for players to fall into unexpected pvp situations" makes me believe not even clan war situation will overcome the safe zone ruleset other than possession stones.

    Thing i felt indifferent about:
    *Possession stones, a.k.a Lineage 2 Essense version (NA Aden version) Strongholds, basically another Clan conflict motivator alongside the confront over the mentioned timed region events and bosses, considering the game's majority safe zones, such a thing will prove to be necessary to stir things up.

    I truly was expecting some information regarding monetization even if superficial, even tho their "A game for everyone and "PLAY FOR ALL" moto leads me to a firmer believe in the expect F2P P2W model...

    Still a game that seems worth checking out in my eyes if they don't mess up the monetization model...
    But we talking about NCsoft....
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2022
    I started the director's preview video with quite tamed expectations and was still left somewhat disappointed...

    Things i liked:
    *Their already spoken environment adaptability system.
    *Few frames Active Defense with different outcomes depending on the weapon, very nice tool with potential for skill expression.

    Things i disliked:
    *Few skills Weapon-Bound Classes (No True Classes)[New World Flashbacks intensifies]
    *Not a true Open World PvP, game, as the most of the places are straight up safe zones. alongside the statement "There is no chance for players to fall into unexpected pvp situations" makes me believe not even clan war situation will overcome the safe zone ruleset other than possession stones.

    Thing i felt indifferent about:
    *Possession stones, a.k.a Lineage 2 Essense version (NA Aden version) Strongholds, basically another Clan conflict motivator alongside the confront over the mentioned timed region events and bosses, considering the game's majority safe zones, such a thing will prove to be necessary to stir things up.

    I truly was expecting some information regarding monetization even if superficial, even tho their "A game for everyone and "PLAY FOR ALL" moto leads me to a firmer believe in the expect F2P P2W model...

    Still a game that seems worth checking out in my eyes if they don't mess up the monetization model...
    But we talking about NCsoft....

    Now this one's interesting, since I would have expected you and NiKr to have SOMEWHAT similar perspectives on the OWPvP game aspect.

    And I don't think it can be ArcheAge related... so what's the difference here? You're the one who can explain to me the best, probably 'why it is important that there are no safe zones', assuming that's even what you meant.

    (If willing, see above for the discussion between NiKr and myself for framing)
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • edited December 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    I started the director's preview video with quite tamed expectations and was still left somewhat disappointed...

    Things i liked:
    *Their already spoken environment adaptability system.
    *Few frames Active Defense with different outcomes depending on the weapon, very nice tool with potential for skill expression.

    Things i disliked:
    *Few skills Weapon-Bound Classes (No True Classes)[New World Flashbacks intensifies]
    *Not a true Open World PvP, game, as the most of the places are straight up safe zones. alongside the statement "There is no chance for players to fall into unexpected pvp situations" makes me believe not even clan war situation will overcome the safe zone ruleset other than possession stones.

    Thing i felt indifferent about:
    *Possession stones, a.k.a Lineage 2 Essense version (NA Aden version) Strongholds, basically another Clan conflict motivator alongside the confront over the mentioned timed region events and bosses, considering the game's majority safe zones, such a thing will prove to be necessary to stir things up.

    I truly was expecting some information regarding monetization even if superficial, even tho their "A game for everyone and "PLAY FOR ALL" moto leads me to a firmer believe in the expect F2P P2W model...

    Still a game that seems worth checking out in my eyes if they don't mess up the monetization model...
    But we talking about NCsoft....

    Now this one's interesting, since I would have expected you and NiKr to have SOMEWHAT similar perspectives on the OWPvP game aspect.

    And I don't think it can be ArcheAge related... so what's the difference here? You're the one who can explain to me the best, probably 'why it is important that there are no safe zones', assuming that's even what you meant.

    (If willing, see above for the discussion between NiKr and myself for framing)


    Oh you have already understood why i dislike safe zones other than towns:
    'constant feeling of danger' or 'the ability to gank others at random' and 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction'

    Those are things i find important but not complete deal breakers for me as i've experienced Archeage's rulesets where all land in the game (other than Sungold fields, Exeloch, Marcala, Heedmar, Nuimari and Calmlands) would become completely peaceful and chaotic from time to time in cycles.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The game itself is quite promising, but the main problem is long term...
    How far the cash shop will be a thing.

    We don't have information of monetization yet, and probably because things are not totally set up with western publisher, The rumor of amazon...

    This is the problem with NCsoft game : good one, even excellent one, but bad overall management.

    For the thing similar to AOC, i think that it was before AOC was an idea the road MMORPG were going to take. Solo game manage to do wonderfull openworld, so mmorpg have to find new ways to have specificity. Even more with a casualised genre where they all know that money = coop more than MMO. So being close to solo RPG. Eve online was already kind of example of those with a fully sandbox system. and just needed time to get it thru change of "grounded" worlds. And think will continue this way.

    The "close to AOC" will also vary from one to another base on what feels the most important. Some people claiming "no class so not same" and i would say "who cares?". Because for me it is more about "create the character" than class system i look for. Be it the class system like D&D/pathfinder or a free system as there are lot of other RPG as savage world... i am always fine so don't see it as difference.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So, having thought about both the 'Class system' and how it compares to Ashes, I feel like they might be a bit more similar than 'expected' IF one specific thing is true.

    It definitely looks like the player wears any gear. Which makes sense for this design type. You won't know if a player who grabs Longsword + Staff is 'trying to be a Priest/Mage', 'trying to be a Fighter', or both, and they would choose their non-weapon gear accordingly. There's no indication so far of 'quickswap' or 'gearset' (I'll hope for none).

    If this is true, while I am quite excited for the Ashes 'use any weapon and any gear' option, the result doesn't feel like it will be VERY different if there are no weapon related Active Skills in Ashes. Procs may have some effect, but we don't know yet.

    The other aspect of it is the relative quickswap of it.

    To me, there's little difference between 'I am a Cleric with Daggers because I like Dagger Procs' and 'I am a Healer that switches to Daggers suddenly because I like Dagger skills too' except that technically there's a higher chance that in the SECOND case I'm having more fun. I still have to make a build/gear loadout that compliments both, I HOPE. And I have to do this in both games.

    For those who have expectations of 'Classes' that diverge from 'Weapons', what are those? (I totally get 'wanting more weapon variety' generally, so may not need to address that, TL's glaring lack of Hammer/Mace and Spear is definitely a notable slight on that end).

    Basically, if you assume 'Cleric with a Longsword' is going to work in Ashes, any specific reason why you think "Healer Main Longsword User Secondary" won't feel similar in TL?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    My issue with this is that it's an Asian MMO.

    Now, before you ask, what do you have against Asian MMOs, I don't really have anything against them. I mean, I play BDO, TERA Online, and Lost Ark. I clearly don't hate them. I've dumped plenty of time and money into them.

    But, at the same time, I eat pizza and popcorn, but they're not going to compare to lobster thermidor or filet mignon. Asian MMOs without fail lean heavily on tropes that kill any longterm emotional investment in them. A focus on grind, cutesy characters out of Hello Kitty, cosmetics that look like swimsuits or giant popsicle weapons or whatever, and heavy P2W monetization.

    They are pretty, they often have cool combat action, and they are fun to play in short doses. But they never, ever suck me in. Never. I've never played one that lasts too long. They're like junk food or a dessert. Nice to have every now and then.

    But they might as well be a completely different genre from a western MMO. It's like comparing Ashes of Creation to League of Legends. They are both fun to play individually but they're just not going to scratch the same gaming itch.

    I'm not even saying one is superior to the other. They are just too different.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Atama wrote: »
    My issue with this is that it's an Asian MMO.

    Now, before you ask, what do you have against Asian MMOs, I don't really have anything against them. I mean, I play BDO, TERA Online, and Lost Ark. I clearly don't hate them. I've dumped plenty of time and money into them.

    But, at the same time, I eat pizza and popcorn, but they're not going to compare to lobster thermidor or filet mignon. Asian MMOs without fail lean heavily on tropes that kill any longterm emotional investment in them. A focus on grind, cutesy characters out of Hello Kitty, cosmetics that look like swimsuits or giant popsicle weapons or whatever, and heavy P2W monetization.

    They are pretty, they often have cool combat action, and they are fun to play in short doses. But they never, ever suck me in. Never. I've never played one that lasts too long. They're like junk food or a dessert. Nice to have every now and then.

    But they might as well be a completely different genre from a western MMO. It's like comparing Ashes of Creation to League of Legends. They are both fun to play individually but they're just not going to scratch the same gaming itch.

    I'm not even saying one is superior to the other. They are just too different.

    Maybe so, but since the thread was primarily about Systems, and even NiKr's latest revival of the thread was again, about 'the concept of comparing or seeing the similarities of the systems', I was hoping that we might be able to look past that toward the implementation.

    (I'm not particularly curious about the 'tropes' or similar, so you need not explain anything of that nature, but if we were to imagine that TL did not contain... whatever it is that you're thinking of, and used Battle Pass instead of general heavy P2W, what then?)

    I don't really mind if the general response is 'Asian MMO eww' since that, at least, is a clean 'conversation break', so if that's all you have to say, please ignore me.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Azherae wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    My issue with this is that it's an Asian MMO.

    Now, before you ask, what do you have against Asian MMOs, I don't really have anything against them. I mean, I play BDO, TERA Online, and Lost Ark. I clearly don't hate them. I've dumped plenty of time and money into them.

    But, at the same time, I eat pizza and popcorn, but they're not going to compare to lobster thermidor or filet mignon. Asian MMOs without fail lean heavily on tropes that kill any longterm emotional investment in them. A focus on grind, cutesy characters out of Hello Kitty, cosmetics that look like swimsuits or giant popsicle weapons or whatever, and heavy P2W monetization.

    They are pretty, they often have cool combat action, and they are fun to play in short doses. But they never, ever suck me in. Never. I've never played one that lasts too long. They're like junk food or a dessert. Nice to have every now and then.

    But they might as well be a completely different genre from a western MMO. It's like comparing Ashes of Creation to League of Legends. They are both fun to play individually but they're just not going to scratch the same gaming itch.

    I'm not even saying one is superior to the other. They are just too different.

    Maybe so, but since the thread was primarily about Systems, and even NiKr's latest revival of the thread was again, about 'the concept of comparing or seeing the similarities of the systems', I was hoping that we might be able to look past that toward the implementation.

    (I'm not particularly curious about the 'tropes' or similar, so you need not explain anything of that nature, but if we were to imagine that TL did not contain... whatever it is that you're thinking of, and used Battle Pass instead of general heavy P2W, what then?)

    I don't really mind if the general response is 'Asian MMO eww' since that, at least, is a clean 'conversation break', so if that's all you have to say, please ignore me.

    System-wise I really dislike the "free gankfest at night" thing. That's a complete deal-breaker for me. As far as I can see it, that means I can only play the game half the time. Gangs of griefers roaming around to ruin other players' fun for their own jollies is not fun for me at all.

    But I gotta say, I think they're doing a public service for the gaming industry, because now those jerks have a place to play and will leave AoC alone. :smiley:
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Atama wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    My issue with this is that it's an Asian MMO.

    Now, before you ask, what do you have against Asian MMOs, I don't really have anything against them. I mean, I play BDO, TERA Online, and Lost Ark. I clearly don't hate them. I've dumped plenty of time and money into them.

    But, at the same time, I eat pizza and popcorn, but they're not going to compare to lobster thermidor or filet mignon. Asian MMOs without fail lean heavily on tropes that kill any longterm emotional investment in them. A focus on grind, cutesy characters out of Hello Kitty, cosmetics that look like swimsuits or giant popsicle weapons or whatever, and heavy P2W monetization.

    They are pretty, they often have cool combat action, and they are fun to play in short doses. But they never, ever suck me in. Never. I've never played one that lasts too long. They're like junk food or a dessert. Nice to have every now and then.

    But they might as well be a completely different genre from a western MMO. It's like comparing Ashes of Creation to League of Legends. They are both fun to play individually but they're just not going to scratch the same gaming itch.

    I'm not even saying one is superior to the other. They are just too different.

    Maybe so, but since the thread was primarily about Systems, and even NiKr's latest revival of the thread was again, about 'the concept of comparing or seeing the similarities of the systems', I was hoping that we might be able to look past that toward the implementation.

    (I'm not particularly curious about the 'tropes' or similar, so you need not explain anything of that nature, but if we were to imagine that TL did not contain... whatever it is that you're thinking of, and used Battle Pass instead of general heavy P2W, what then?)

    I don't really mind if the general response is 'Asian MMO eww' since that, at least, is a clean 'conversation break', so if that's all you have to say, please ignore me.

    System-wise I really dislike the "free gankfest at night" thing. That's a complete deal-breaker for me. As far as I can see it, that means I can only play the game half the time. Gangs of griefers roaming around to ruin other players' fun for their own jollies is not fun for me at all.

    But I gotta say, I think they're doing a public service for the gaming industry, because now those jerks have a place to play and will leave AoC alone. :smiley:

    If relevant, a different information source lately has informed us that the 'Night' portion of the game where this is considered to be available might actually be a 4:1 ratio, time wise. So probably only from like 10:30 to 4:00 game time. Source.

    I doubt this changes your perspective, but figured I should add to that, and ofc, there's other stuff at that link that might be relevant to thread/discussion.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Source

    I doubt this changes your perspective, but figured I should add to that, and ofc, there's other stuff at that link that might be relevant to thread/discussion.
    They're also going for 3-5k servers. And their world seemed fairly big too. This makes me really curious whether Intrepid will succeed in both supporting their 10k concurrents and in designing the game in a way where those 10k people always have smth to do w/o the lands feeling barren. I guess freeholds will fill up most of those lands, but still.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Source

    I doubt this changes your perspective, but figured I should add to that, and ofc, there's other stuff at that link that might be relevant to thread/discussion.
    They're also going for 3-5k servers. And their world seemed fairly big too. This makes me really curious whether Intrepid will succeed in both supporting their 10k concurrents and in designing the game in a way where those 10k people always have smth to do w/o the lands feeling barren. I guess freeholds will fill up most of those lands, but still.

    I believe that Intrepid has a MUCH better chance of doing that successfully than TL does, as their architecture is built directly for it and their combat style/speed doesn't require as much optimization (so far).

    But TL has things like 15-frame sword dashes and 'CC that you have to hit confirm', so they're probably going to be a little less ambitious.

    That's the general thing I see for them. They're just 'less ambitious'. They're like 'what Ashes would be if Steven didn't believe in making things the maximum possible'. All Ashes has to do to blow this out of the water is actually DO all of the things that they want to do.

    But from the other side, we as the community sometimes end up considering things like 'If Ashes had to cut something, what should they cut', or 'We haven't seen new Nodes things in so long'. Whereas TL can afford to 'release now with the barebones enjoyable product' and add more things later.

    From my analyst's perspective, they're almost suspiciously efficient with how precisely and carefully they've trimmed everything to minimum viable. The number of things they could 'add later in expansions' while keeping exactly the same gameplay loops is borderline surgical. At least they're not making BDO's mistakes.

    But Ashes theoretically has them beat on every front except 'release date' if we trust that we will get everything promised.

    tl;dr maybe they'll expand the servers and are being conservative now, but I'd bet they're just playing it safe. Nothing worse than 'releasing a laggy frame dropping game' when you've spent 10 years on trying to get it to work.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    tl;dr maybe they'll expand the servers and are being conservative now, but I'd bet they're just playing it safe. Nothing worse than 'releasing a laggy frame dropping game' when you've spent 10 years on trying to get it to work.
    And those 10 years will be the interesting difference here. TL has allegedly been in "development" for those 10 years and have cut down their presentation to their mvp in the process. If we assume that Ashes manages to come out within the same 10-year span and with all the promised stuff - I'd call that almost a miracle. And we've obviously seen that the game has already changed some things along the way, though obviously not as massively as TL has (from isometric to full 3d).

    And as long as NCsoft doesn't COMPLETELY FUCK IT ALL UP (highly doubtful), they'd have several years of "going up" from their mvp to what Ashes would have on proper release, except in that case it'd have several years of content and reputation built up, at which point it'd be pretty much a direct competitor for AoC. And there's also AA2, though that's probably even more years off than AoC.

    In other words, AoC will definitely have issues with holding their target audience if they fail to deliver on their bigger promises. Though both AA2 and TL will most likely fall prey to heavy P2W, so I think in the end Steven's biggest promise of "no p2w" will play the most crucial role in this competition. Especially if we consider that by the time of its release the world of p2w will be even worse than it is rn, so AoC's impact would be that much bigger if they manage to avoid it and deliver at least a decent game.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    tl;dr maybe they'll expand the servers and are being conservative now, but I'd bet they're just playing it safe. Nothing worse than 'releasing a laggy frame dropping game' when you've spent 10 years on trying to get it to work.
    And those 10 years will be the interesting difference here. TL has allegedly been in "development" for those 10 years and have cut down their presentation to their mvp in the process. If we assume that Ashes manages to come out within the same 10-year span and with all the promised stuff - I'd call that almost a miracle. And we've obviously seen that the game has already changed some things along the way, though obviously not as massively as TL has (from isometric to full 3d).

    And as long as NCsoft doesn't COMPLETELY FUCK IT ALL UP (highly doubtful), they'd have several years of "going up" from their mvp to what Ashes would have on proper release, except in that case it'd have several years of content and reputation built up, at which point it'd be pretty much a direct competitor for AoC. And there's also AA2, though that's probably even more years off than AoC.

    In other words, AoC will definitely have issues with holding their target audience if they fail to deliver on their bigger promises. Though both AA2 and TL will most likely fall prey to heavy P2W, so I think in the end Steven's biggest promise of "no p2w" will play the most crucial role in this competition. Especially if we consider that by the time of its release the world of p2w will be even worse than it is rn, so AoC's impact would be that much bigger if they manage to avoid it and deliver at least a decent game.

    I don't think it will be true competition at all though.

    There's some pretty clear splits in gaming philosophies between the two camps, what I figure we will get is the same sort of schism from the old days where the 'Eastern MMOs' drew one set of players, and WoW/DAoC got the rest.

    Different Combat, different world schema, different aesthetics... All Ashes has to do is move a bit more toward WoW and a bit away from L2/AA in terms of those aspects, which it already has. It's pretty ironic in a certain way to me, but I really hope it works out for both sides, and I REALLY hope they keep up this 'mirror image' thing they have going.

    Basically what I meant was... by the time TL 'adds everything Ashes promises to have at launch', I bet Ashes would have launched with all that active already. They'd be the ones in trouble then, 'having to find a way to prevent bleeding off players into a new MMO'. Especially if their Console audience wasn't high.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Basically what I meant was... by the time TL 'adds everything Ashes promises to have at launch', I bet Ashes would have launched with all that active already. They'd be the ones in trouble then, 'having to find a way to prevent bleeding off players into a new MMO'. Especially if their Console audience wasn't high.
    Yeah, there's a chance this'll be the case. I guess 2023 will show how big that chance is.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Azherae wrote: »
    There's some pretty clear splits in gaming philosophies between the two camps, what I figure we will get is the same sort of schism from the old days where the 'Eastern MMOs' drew one set of players, and WoW/DAoC got the rest.

    Different Combat, different world schema, different aesthetics... All Ashes has to do is move a bit more toward WoW and a bit away from L2/AA in terms of those aspects, which it already has. It's pretty ironic in a certain way to me, but I really hope it works out for both sides, and I REALLY hope they keep up this 'mirror image' thing they have going.

    That was my point as well. They might as well be different genres.
     
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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Atama wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    There's some pretty clear splits in gaming philosophies between the two camps, what I figure we will get is the same sort of schism from the old days where the 'Eastern MMOs' drew one set of players, and WoW/DAoC got the rest.

    Different Combat, different world schema, different aesthetics... All Ashes has to do is move a bit more toward WoW and a bit away from L2/AA in terms of those aspects, which it already has. It's pretty ironic in a certain way to me, but I really hope it works out for both sides, and I REALLY hope they keep up this 'mirror image' thing they have going.

    That was my point as well. They might as well be different genres.

    I believe I didn't understand your point because of two things.

    None of the things you mentioned are things I generally consider 'guaranteed' or even 'likely' for 'Eastern MMOs', so the connection seemed tenuous. All of the things you mentioned were either (I assume) hyperbole, or 'things that apply to Ashes too' which Intrepid might then need to move moreso away from, which leads into...

    Secondly, Ashes was based quite a lot on two 'Eastern MMOs'.

    By contrast (for example), I would expect that ArcheAge 2 will be MUCH stronger competition for Ashes despite being much 'more Eastern' in specific ways, since they will be MUCH more similar, I think. That's also why I found it ironic.

    But this is also probably equally my bias, since the 'things that make Western MMOs' to ME are all things that Ashes is specifically seemingly avoiding, and I'll assume that's because I actually don't understand what makes an MMO 'not Asian' for most people.

    We don't know ArcheAge 2 systems yet, but I would bet that any equivalent thread would be almost the exact opposite of this one, we just happen to be discussing TL instead of AA2 right now.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    TL has been on my radar for a few months now.
    Much more likely I will play TL, rather than Ashes.
    A bit more interested in Project E.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    TL will likely have many element in its favor that AoC may not be able to compete with in the short term.
    They appear more similar than dissimilar.

    One strong point in AoC`s favor is maximum population: there is far more capacity for a higher population server to wain in numbers and still maintain a feeling of activity at 2-4x the max possible population than not.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    akabear wrote: »
    TL will likely have many element in its favor that AoC may not be able to compete with in the short term.
    They appear more similar than dissimilar.

    One strong point in AoC`s favor is maximum population: there is far more capacity for a higher population server to wain in numbers and still maintain a feeling of activity at 2-4x the max possible population than not.

    I disagree with this based on the principles that TL seems to be using to achieve their population convergences.

    They have a structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content', 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons', and 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'. There is no joke or sarcasm in that last one.

    Making an MMO world feel alive is actually only about 50% 'players you actually interact with' in my experience, and it's almost better to use other tricks to cause the effect. TL is full of those tricks, Ashes is by definition not planning to use most of them.

    It's also likely that their world size is smaller, but honestly, it's not even required due to their traversal options and their choices in terms of things like 'draw distance' and movement 'styles'.

    Many 'open world' MMORPGs spent a bit too MUCH time trying to 'open up their vast world' and ended up making it feel empty. I don't think Ashes will suffer this problem, but I do think that they both have approaches that will likely lead to the same feeling.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2022
    Azherae wrote: »

    I disagree with this based on the principles that TL seems to be using to achieve their population convergences.

    They have a structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content', 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons', and 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'. There is no joke or sarcasm in that last one.

    TL structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content'
    AoC structure based around" players actions causing node/region events to bring players together"

    TL 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons'
    No idea how AoC will handle circulation in their dungeons.. neither here nor there

    TL 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'.
    TL 'riding around on regular and weird and wonderful mounts.

    "Making an MMO world feel alive is actually only about 50% 'players you actually interact with' in my experience, and it's almost better to use other tricks to cause the effect. TL is full of those tricks, Ashes is by definition not planning to use most of them."

    > AoC will have to utilize similar tools to make their areas feel active. In early testing and various footage there
    looks like there will be spatial disparity perhaps derived from insufficient / inaccurate data estimation of densities.

    Not seeing the disparity you see.
  • problem with throne of liberty is it probaly gonna be rather pay to win going by publishers past experience but could be good to kill time waiting for AoC though
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    akabear wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    I disagree with this based on the principles that TL seems to be using to achieve their population convergences.

    They have a structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content', 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons', and 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'. There is no joke or sarcasm in that last one.

    TL structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content'
    AoC structure based around" players actions causing node/region events to bring players together"

    TL 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons'
    No idea how AoC will handle circulation in their dungeons.. neither here nor there

    TL 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'.
    TL 'riding around on regular and weird and wonderful mounts.

    "Making an MMO world feel alive is actually only about 50% 'players you actually interact with' in my experience, and it's almost better to use other tricks to cause the effect. TL is full of those tricks, Ashes is by definition not planning to use most of them."

    > AoC will have to utilize similar tools to make their areas feel active. In early testing and various footage there
    looks like there will be spatial disparity perhaps derived from insufficient / inaccurate data estimation of densities.

    Not seeing the disparity you see.

    Sure, I'll clarify, let me know if you still disagree. For now, only addressing the one thing since I won't be around as much today.

    Let's ignore Metropolis nodes and maybe even Cities for a moment because if Ashes 'intends' for outer nodes to be 'boring' and 'peaceful' that's fine, still different, but I'd definitely be wrong then.

    In TL, the idea is that at 8:00 PM every day or every other day, there's a contest in Region A, so everyone who wants to compete knows when to log on, knows where to go, knows what the stakes are, can coordinate, and it's probably unrelated to their 'home area'.

    In Ashes, at 'some time', an event MIGHT spawn, in a Node that could be quite far from you but also have other 'native people' there, in a region you might not care about, with the 'act of moving to this contest' being unsafe due to lack of ability to travel safely through field zones'.

    My understanding is that for Ashes, this SPECIFIC type of dynamism is intentional, whereas for TL it is explicitly not.

    So for Ashes, especially if you don't get a lot of 'worldwide announcements of content' to tell you 'report to X node in the Jundark for a cool event that will start in 20m', you're not going to get the same results. People will 'stay around their nodes' or wander semirandomly. Statistically this would result in non-convergence. This will be compounded by the general feeling in Ashes that anyone you encounter on the road that you don't know WELL might just try to kill you, hoping that you have stuff.

    This doubles up when those people have to be thinking 'are you running to the other side of the map right now because you are bored but also want to make a profit? Can I kill you, get the items you were hoping to sell at a profit and then profit with MUCH less work?'

    Making the act if 'moving to a new event' a matter of gathering your group for travel sometimes.

    This is the basis of my perception, please let me know which points you disagree with (as well as if you still disagree in general with the conclusion, but not the basis).
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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