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Dev Discussion #51 - Let’s Discuss the Mage

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  • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I would certainly like to have abilities that can be cast back to back, as casting all of my abilities in a linear rotation will be extremely old after about 10 encounters. Having harder hitting abilities on a longer cooldown would be great, and being able to use various abilities to react to the mobs around me would also be ideal, such as excluding a certain AoE ability in favor of a hard hitting single target skill.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana management should be a contributing factor to a Mage over longer encounters. I believe it would be invaluable to be able to spec into mana preserving lines (at the cost of spending skill points in other specializations and lines), however, it would also be great to require food and drinks to replenish mana outside of combat, and potions usable within combat for those who have not specced into mana recovery specializations.

    Regardless, love the mage showcase, everything was phenomenal and I really love the direction you guys have gone with this.
  • BotBot Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    dd_the_mage3__1_.jpg

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

    Dev Discussion - Let's Discuss the Mage
    • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    • Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion on the Boss Mechanics

    Mages should have a good blend of options where you always have some ability to use. Nothing is less enjoyable of an experience is having nothing to use. I think having solid auto attacks that are useful is good. I really like the idea of having something like elemental differences. Lightning to be mobile with consistent aoe dmg, fire for low mobility burst damage, etc. I don't think normal abilities should be reusable without a CD. The CDs should just make sense whether it's a 4 sec cd or 16 secs.

    I never saw the use of mana management in games. It creates an unnecessary barrier that proper cooldowns can fix instead. If anything, let a good mage sustain infinitely, but ultimately I'd prefer mana management to not be relevant. It adds no real skill, it becomes an arbitrary stat check or spell point.
  • DizzDizz Member
    * Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I like how GW2 design their magic spells. Guardian’s Spirit Weapon spells, Elementlalist’s Arcane Blast, Mesmer’s Mantra spells for example. They all a little similar but not exactly thew same on detail. I’d like to see something more than everything based on cooldown rotation.

    * Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    I prefer no traditional resource system at all like GW2 no mana/energy/rage etc, just cooldown and build the unique mechanic resource for the class if it has one like Warrior or Necromancer in GW2. It’s more simple to average players to focus on the situation they are facing and to enjoy the game.
    A casual follower from TW.

    ↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
    Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
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  • I never really liked cooldowns at all. If you know a skill/technique, why would you only be able to use it once every X seconds? Just make it a higher resource cost to use, and you don't need cooldowns at all.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2023
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    If you do spells back to back with no CD you need to do the same for the other archetypes, we have seen extremely long range movement skills for mage/ranger and basically no gap closer for the Tank for example, and that's a melee class that already has the range disadvantage, please take balance into consideration and don't make Mage to be extremely OP compared to the others

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes, 100% mana needs to be very important, a class with so many AoE skills needs to not be able to spam skills otherwise will end up with a Mage meta in the game (like 90% of the MMOs)

    - Most importantly, I really really hope TTK is respected in PvP even with glass cannon Mage builds.... we NEED a 30s to 60s TTK please don't make Archeage combat again where mages explode melee/plate users with 1shots or a few skills, 30s should be absolute minimum against a player with similar gear even if its plate.
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  • simpetarsimpetar Member
    edited May 2023
    A system where every ability has a cooldown has tendencies to become slow and clunky at times and hectic at other times. There is inevitably a window where the player has no ability to use (everything is on CD) that never feels good, and then if several abilities come off CD at once, it feels unnecessarily hectic. Many games (MMOs and otherwise) fell into this very trap.

    IMO the key lies in resource management. Cooldowns are one such resource, but they can't be the only one, or the "rotation" becomes "hit any button that just became available": very passive gameplay, just wait until it's ready, even a trained monkey can do that (or worse, a simple bot). There are many ways to make managing CDs more engaging, for instance:

    1. sudden reset, i.e. ability A has X% chance to reset CD on ability B
    2. gradual decrease of remaining CD, i.e. every time you use ability A, cooldown of ability B is reduced by X seconds, alternatively: the longer you maintain/channel ability A (like the blizzard we saw), the shorter CD will be on ability B
    3. triggers interacting with other resource, i.e. after you spend X mana / consume X amount of stacks / upgrade a condition (staggered -> stunned), CD on your ability will be reset
    4. hostile interference. i.e. if you are affected by condition A (debuff), CD on your abilities is increased by X%, until the condition is removed or runs out (subject to diminishing returns ofc)
    5. team-play synergies, i.e. if your party member affects an enemy with a condition you don't have access to or is impractical for you to use (for instance poisoned, bleeding, etc.) your ability A will have its CD reduced after it hits the enemy
    6. continual power-up, i.e. your ability A needs couple seconds to recharge and you can use it as soon as it's ready, BUT if you wait longer, it will get X% stronger for every extra second (or another resource) you wait when you next use it (with a cap ofc)
    7. movement affecting CDs, i.e. ability can recharge only if you stand still and any movement will halt the timer (or simply recharges X times as fast), or vice versa

    At the same time, spammable abilities that fill the gap just for the sake of filling the gap are kinda lame. They don't need to be super complicated, but their existence needs to be at least a little bit justified in the rotation. They can build stacks, inflict conditions,, replenish other resource etc.

  • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?


    Okay so first I'm half and half on this, Do you mean Cast spell A, then Spell B is free instant cast. Or do you mean Spell cast in-between Other spell casts as a non global Cooldown. To be honest having small spells that apply a debuff very quickly would be fine for a instant cast, but as soon as you add spell instant chaining then mage would then be high meta picks, which we all don't want.


    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?


    Yes Absolutely mana Management is important, Mana should be a resource for mages that is actually visual, I don't know how many times I've spoken to OG classic WOW mage players saying they missed the days of having to sit and eat and drink to gain mana back, we need that back because it does really bring back the social aspect of the game, But if you do make it so using the spells requires mana, you need to make sure that other classes use their resource the same amount so its still a fair fight, Nothing is more infuriating when your a mage trying to escape and the rogue has 6 dashes, hooks and slows and then can still unleash 18 abilities without any repercussions. But in saying so having a resource replenish ability for each spec would also be good, but on a decent cooldown.
  • SmolBeanEmLouSmolBeanEmLou Member
    edited May 2023
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    With the fact that there are weapon attacks, I would say cooldowns are fine. However, if there was a way that doing your mage rotation of spells could effect other things of your other classes. E.g., you are a battle mage, so you do your AOEs or whatever status effects you do as a mage, then your fighter cooldowns (if any) are ready to go. I know this isn't technically the question, but with the format of how different archetypes work together in a class, I would like to see something like that.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    (I am going to relate this to D&D so just bear with me) Yes I think mana management is important. Just as in d&d, spell casters have spell slots in which they have to decide what spells they have prepared and which they cast for an encounter. For a video game, to me, that means that there would be a spell book with different spells you select on your hot bars, then there is a limited amount of mana you have to use in rotations.
    Now this is where I have two different thoughts:

    1) As you level up in mage/get more proficient in using mana, the amount you have to use for spells should decrease. This means that although your mana pool is growing, the more proficient you get the cost would go down by 5%. 1st level spells (lets say they cost 10 mana) would go down to 9 mana cost (I know 5% of 10 is .5 but lets just round it to 1). Higher level spells (lets say they cost 100 mana) would go down to 95 mana cost. This would allow for both a more sustained mage, but also only apply to mages that specialize in mage. NOTE: I mean chose the archetype mage first and then whatever else second.

    2) Learning how to effectively use your spells would be good for mana. E.g. You use a bunch of spells very quickly, so your mana that can average 5 rotations normally, now can only do 2. Because the amount you used vastly outpaced the recovery percentage. However, if you use them slowly you can get 6 rotations out because you are a little slower or even matched to the mana recovery (Maybe mana recovery is slower the more spells you cast in a period of time, but the slower you go the faster it recovers between spells. It would run out anyway, but the amount you can get out before you run out would be different). Concentration on a spell, like what was shown in the demonstration, should cost a little bit more mana. Since it would make the mage pick and choose a little more.

    Both of these are to say that mages should have a mana cost, unlike other games, a mage shouldn't be able to run in and cast 8 rotations then fall back for 5 minutes and take a mana potion and be fine. Magic should come with a mana cost!

    I am not as big of a fan of the second one, since in other games that feels a little macro like to me. I personally do not like that kind of play and would like it to feel more organic. However, both of these are things that can happen in video games or just games in general.

    Please let me know your thoughts or if you have specific examples of these in games!
  • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I think there should be a bit of downtime between major bursts of power. In the MMO I’m most familiar with, WoW, this downtime is covered by repetitive, cheap, low power spells that you spam over and over again. This serves its purpose fairly well, but you all have made the wand (and I assume will make the magic staff) combat so fun looking with the animations and VFX that I think having a few rounds of that go off between major power bursts should suffice. If there’s always an ability off cooldown that is preferable to use over auto-attacking, then nobody will care about magic weapon usage. They’ll become stat sticks like they are in WoW.

    That all being said, I think the individual mage should be able to choose as they develop through their skill tree whether they want to be a burst damage dealer with a very powerful, high CD toolkit, a lower power but constant caster who uses skill spells much more than their weapon, or somewhere in between.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    My whole thing with mana is that when some classes have it, and other ones don’t, but the classes are somewhat evenly matched in power, then it’s unfair to the mana user if the other players’ resource pools regenerate indefinitely during combat (rage / energy in WoW). So if every class has the same resource pool that doesn’t regenerate in combat, I’m fine with that. But if some classes use rage that build up as you attack and get attacked, or energy that quickly builds back up on its own in and out of combat, then making mages have to consider how far they can go before they run out of mana feels pretty bad.

    If there are different types of resources, then I think mana users should have tools built into their kits that allow them to regain some mana while they’re casting. It shouldn’t just be a 3 second cast you need to get off without being interrupted either, that feels lazy. I think it should be small bits of mana that get regenerated here and there, maybe mixed with a high CD big recharge spell once in a while. Maybe you could tie a gradient of mana regeneration into your arcane spell family?

    On the other hand, if the classes are very much not matched in power, and the mage is considerably stronger, then a fun dynamic to introduce could be to make fighting a mage require a decent ability to dodge skill shots and time your CC properly to avoid taking their burst damage until they run out of mana, then go to town on them. Almost like facing a dungeon boss. But that’s a lot to ask of the average player. I think going for the more balanced approach, either with all mana users, or with regenerative mana abilities for mana users, would be a better option.
  • ZeitlosZeitlos Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I detest arbitrary cooldowns. If I have the skill and the resources (generally mana, but any limited resource would suffice), I should be able to cast the spell. That makes mana management critical. Which leads to...

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes, absolutely. A mage should most certainly be limited by the resources at their disposal. No singular mage should be able to sustain spell output indefinitely, without break. I do however like the "mana battery" group aspect as well. However, any mechanic (that allows a mage to significantly buff the mana regen of another party) should be simultaneously incapable of casting spells. While I like the idea of a throw-away, longer duration buff to provide minor mana regen, I would also like to see an ability that could be used to provide significant mana regen to the solo mage, as well as other party members.

    I envision a type of meditative state that a mage could enter to regenerate mana, allowing for no spell-casting while active and limited movement, but generating a small radius of significant mana regen around the mage. This would allow the mage to recover his own mana in short order if solo, or provide a significant buff to people around them. Such a buff should have a damage threshold and also see diminished returns based on the number of people in the "essence zone".
  • PyerterPyerter Member
    1. Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    Some abilities are incredibly fun to spam over and over, but it's good to switch up your abilities sometimes. It can get boring spamming one ability if you do it too long or if the ability isn't interesting enough. While I think spamming one ability should be fun, I think it's even more fun to set up buffs or triggers that cause your spammable to cause more damage and trigger more entertaining effects.

    2. Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
    Mana management has not felt great in my experience, where typically there aren't many great ways to restore mana and I have to constantly hold back on using entertaining spells from fear of sitting through having no mana. Mana can help to act as a limiting factor to damage output over long encounters, but it can also feel bad. Thematically, it's a great tool to explain power, and it would make sense for a mage to stop and rest, but the ability to regenerate mana, if mana exists, is very important to me, because causing mana to limit output or time in a fight can feel very bad.

    What I really want to say on this topic doesn't necessarily answer both these questions, but it discusses them from a design perspective and what we may want out of the game (and I bet the AoC team has already talked about a lot of what I've said).

    Both of these questions are really fun because they touch on similar yet slightly different problems. Both of these questions deal with limiting the spells a player can use and ideally getting the players to use some subset of spells that makes the gameplay interesting.

    Let's say you want to incentivize the player to use as many abilities as they can. Then, you may want to use cooldowns more. Let's say you want to limit the duration of time a player can be in combat, you may want to use mana. The difference between mana and cooldowns is that mana is a resource shared by all abilities (or whatever abilities rely on mana) and cooldowns are independent for each ability. They both limit the time you can use abilities, but mana also allows for players to spam certain abilities repeatedly (given they have enough mana).

    Let's look at some examples of mana and cooldowns:
    - Hogwart's Legacy - strictly cooldowns: I had a blast slinging spells because I was incentivized to swap between using many different spells, thus trying to create many more powerful combinations of spells as I cycled through all of them. When I burn through one combo, I can be free to move to another combo. Unlike mana, I can only think about what spell I want to use next in terms of what the spell does, not if I should hold back on using it. Admittedly, it was very difficult to enter downtime due to the cooldowns being short enough, so managing cooldowns wasn't the real challenge, but I really enjoyed not having to do that. The real challenge was trying to play the spells in the most effective way.
    - Elden Ring - strictly mana: whenever I would fight bosses, I would have to face resource management through mana consumption. I could either choose to spam quick abilities to burn small amounts of mana, or I could try to burn a ton of mana at once in an attempt to chunk down the boss. By using only mana without cooldowns, I could have a signature spell that I keep going back to. The only reason I used different spells was because different spells had different purposes and situations they were good in. What mana did in this situation was force me to make every spell count, and when I ran out, I would have to use some weaker form of attack. In terms of thinking about long encounters, mana can be a deciding factor in whether or not the player is straight up ready or not ready to solo an encounter or deal only so much damage in a team setting.
    - Terraria - strictly mana: I'm including another mana only example because Elden Ring was an example of a finite mana pool, while in Terraria, you have regenerating mana. The same situation goes, where different spells will be used at different times, but in Terraria you want to ensure that you have other resources to restore your mana, such as mana potions or mana regeneration equipment. This can lead to more preparation before combat, which can be good depending on what kind of game it is (probably good for AoC).
    - World of Warcraft - both cooldowns and mana: Combining both CDs and mana leads to interesting effects, where there exists two mechanics to keep track of and there are two ways to face "downtime" if you are either out of mana or everything is on CD. Using both can also lead to interesting decisions and limitations, where players are both incentivized to use as many abilities as they can, but they may want to avoid certain abilities because they consume too much mana. In recent years, WoW also made only certain abilities use mana in some cases, where mana was only a relevant resource on paladins or shamans if you wanted to heal or use defensive abilities.

    In my experience using both mana and cooldowns, cooldowns have been more entertaining because: I don't have to limit myself in what spells I use, and I end up using more abilities on my bar. The downside of everything having a CD is that I can't spam a signature spell, which is something I enjoy. Both mana and cooldowns can end up with some downtime, either from running out of mana or having everything on CD, so downtime shouldn't be a factor into this decision and is another problem itself (which I think is solved in a great way by making wand attacks relevant). That being said, typically whenever mana is introduced, it becomes a lot easier to enter this downtime and harder to leave that downtime.

    While I do have better experiences with CDs, mana could be a really interesting mechanic, but I don't often see mana restored in good ways (but maybe I'm playing the wrong games). Something I would like to see is for more spells to have a net mana gain, rather than net mana loss. Making mana a more dynamic resource would make dealing with mana a lot more engaging and entertaining, rather than just straight up limiting a player. In addition to this, I'd be interested in if CDs could be avoided altogether. Rather than making a single most powerful ability, a kit could be built that allows the player to cast a really powerful ability, but only through setting up buffs, triggers, debuffs, etc. before casting that ability. Centering a kit around using all abilities in order to make other abilities more powerful could accomplish what CDs down, in terms of incentivizing the player to use more abilities (although this could be really hard to do if players are able to select from MANY different skills when creating their class or action bar). I think that stacking elemental statuses, like in the previous showcase, is a really good step in this direction.

    If both CDs and mana are used, I would ask that the devs be careful and pay attention to what problem they're solving and what drawbacks each solutions brings to the table: how do you want the spell slinging to feel? Do you want a mage to be slinging all kinds of spells all the time and go nova (save for potentially long cooldowns which I don't enjoy), or do you want a mage to be premeditated and hold back their resource in an attempt to be more consistent through the fight?
  • KatrellKatrell Member
    edited May 2023
    To the first question,

    I believe this question most relates to the Arcane Missile ability showcased in the update (not sure if I'm recalling the name of the ability as shown correctly). Some quickfire utility that simultaneously feels rewarding when used correctly and gives a change of pace in the rotation. Something like this is absolutely needed for the "FUN" factor. The design it currently has is pretty good anyway, but if I were to make an adjustment I would look at increasing the rewarding feeling. To accomplish this, you could make the ability trigger off of some sort of combo. As opposed to having the two quick fires all the time that perform well if used at the right time, have them become usable after some sort of skillfully executed combo. Then, getting to use the quickfire spells is the reward as opposed to more efficient damage being the only incentive.

    A flavor opinion about the arcane missile.. I think it would be cool to see it have interaction with that element changing ability that I've forgotten the name of. The one that augments the output of your weapon swings. Having it augment the element of the missiles would be cool too. Maybe scrap the arcane part of it altogether - the arcane bit feels right in our heads as nerds who are familiar with this genre, but as showcased the "element" of arcane felt like an afterthought compared to the other elements. Of course, this could be totally different down the road with future stuff I don't know about.

    To the second question,

    Let me preface my response on this with saying this is a HUGE question and there are so many variables and possibilities to be considered, so I will try to keep perspective on that when giving my opinion here. I don't like when mana users can sustain indefinitely, but I also recognize that sustain is important to longer encounters. I don't particularly care for mana management to be skill based for damage dealers, at least not as the only means of management. I think that approach is excellent for healers and support builds.

    All that to say, I'd like to see mana management come in the form of talent choices/builds for damage dealing mana users. I think it would be cool to have different builds that use mana in varying ways. Like for pvp, I'm trading mana efficiency for big damage/utility. If I'm out in solo pve, I might go more sustain for less stop and go. If I'm in a big boss pve battle that's a long fight, I'm going to find a good balance for output vs sustain on the assumption of having others in party helping me recover mana. I like the customization that comes with this approach. For one large scale castle pvp battle I decide I want to run around glass cannon style with no sustain, but the next time I decide I want to sit up on a defensive structure and maintain sustained AoE spam. Both of these can play pivotal roles in these battles, let us choose via our talents how we want to approach these things. One last example, maybe there's a boss fight where big burst damage is pivotal at the right times.. so maybe most of our raid is in typical sustain mode, but we have a few mages/other classes that are in the big damage no sustain build ready to dump the big guns at just the right times. I think that sounds more fun than a raid just holding cooldowns till the right moment. Instead, we said before the fight "Mage 1, mage 2, mage 3 - you go burst build and be ready to unload. Mage 4, 5, 6 - you got sustain." Opens up another layer to executing any battle.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    • I prefer sequential spells with no real cooldowns: i.e. skills are gated by casting animation time instead of arbitrary timers. For example: a 3-step arcane bolt that has a longer follow through animation on the final bolt that also swaps out which spells the player can cast next.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
    • When I play mages, I hate having to worry about my mana - but that's because I just want to spam all my skills, hahaha. I know that's not the direction of Ashes though.
    • What if mages have more mana regen, but their skills gain offensive bonuses based on missing mana, and more defensive bonuses based on remaining mana? From an opponent's perspective, this means attacking a spent mage is ideal. From a mage's perspective, the risk of being low mana is rewarded with higher offensive ability. It opens options for mage Tanks with big mana pools. It also means: increasing max mana is meaningful for mages, and mana regen is also useful for mages. (in Path of Exile, max mana is mostly useless unless it affects mana regen/other secondary effect - the history of mana reservation in PoE has lots of lessons to learn from about making mana meaningful). This would probably mean that mages want to be either: always full mana, or always empty mana - I'm not sure this is fun.

    I think we need to be clear about mana management: It's generally not a fun mechanic, but it's supposed to capture the idea of long-term fatigue. imo it would be good to relieve mages of this limitation as part of their unique class identity - however, what then is a mage supposed to do with a large mana pool? Are we saying all other classes will struggle with mana?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • -Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    Caster Main here, I want to be able to cast whatever I want, whenever I can.
    Chasing cooldowns, and combo/debuff timers is NOT fun gameplay.

    Make the elemental debuff stacks STICK to the Caster and that's it. Not the target, the Caster.
    Stack them up to 5 and then give us the big payoff with the cash-in spell at the end, even if that spell costs no MP, or costs all your remaining MP to consume your 5 stacks for massive damage.

    Fire Mage mini-rotation should look like:
    (Fireball, FireWand to max debuff, Fireball x2, FireBlast, PyroBlast, Target Dead and 0-MP left)

    Arcane Mage mini-rotation should look like:
    (Arcane bolt, Wand to max debuff, Click-And-Hold Arcane Volley waves of missiles until out of MP)

    I also prefer my magic to be very MP expensive, with longer cast times. Spells need to hit-like-a-truck and I should only be able to cast ~5 spells before I'm completely out of Mana and need to recover MP using Abilities/Items/Sitting, etc.

    I do not want a bunch of puny spells that I have to cast constantly for long periods of time, it's annoying, tedius, and murder on people with tendonitis/carpal tunnel. FFXIV's Summoner for a long time was known as the Carpal Tunnel Mage b/c of all the off global cooldown filler you had to press. Not fun.

    There is no reason for compliated "rotations" either, as much of a Mages time is spent running, trying to stay in casting range, repositioning, kiting, and doing all that while trying to juggle a bunch of arbitrary debuffs and rotation timers before our next spell lands is just not fun.

    People are playing Mages for the BOOM, so give them that. Short, sweet, and tactical!


    -Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes.
    Mana Management should be important, because our spells should be expensive and crushing.
    Mage skill should come from knowing when to best spend our 5 spells worth of MP before we have to reposition, sit and rest/use abilities/Items to recover MP to get back in those longer fights!
  • TotiToti Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I‘d much rather also have spells that can be cast back-to-back to open up more rotation possibilities than using all offensive spells on cd and weaving in attacks in between. Plus also having spells that can be cast back-to-back makes mana management more important which is a good thing.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes, mana management is important. While I think there should be spells to grant the mage mana during a fight so there is little downtime, I don‘t think a mage should be able to sustain themself infinitely. I see the mage as a class with the possibility for high burst damage that is balanced by being restricted by it‘s mana pool. So high mana cost burst damage is possible but the mage can also choose to conserve mana in a long encounter by playing an efficient rotation.

    As for other classes, think mana management should be way less important than for the mage.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited May 2023
    simpetar wrote: »
    A system where every ability has a cooldown has tendencies to become slow and clunky at times and hectic at other times. There is inevitably a window where the player has no ability to use (everything is on CD) that never feels good,
    You've played some terrible games if you think that that's "inevitably" a consequence of high-cooldown rotations. The way you make sure players always have something interesting to do is to give them enough useful spells in their skill tree (3 full 10-key skill bars or more in the endgame) to ensure that they always have a next decision to make about how to approach the situation they are in. That way, ongoing cooldowns never leave them out of impactful options to choose.
    simpetar wrote: »
    and then if several abilities come off CD at once, it feels unnecessarily hectic.
    You can control that as the player by managing your rotations in a way that leaves you prepared for those windows, instead of spamming every buff in one go, just because they all have the same duration. Opting for predictability, preparation for enemy movements, and even convenience in maintaining your rotation, are all part of cooldown management. That's part of the fun in the challenge...
    simpetar wrote: »
    Cooldowns are one such resource, but they can't be the only one, or the "rotation" becomes "hit any button that just became available":
    If you have enough abilities to choose from, that's not an issue. Too many buttons are available at any time, regardless of whether a bunch of them are on cooldown - especially if you also have your mana management to consider. The high cooldowns just ensure that you get to have more different high-impact abilities to cast, without leaving the impact of high-cost ability spam being impossible to balance.
    In the best games I played, the average cooldown was probably about 40-50 seconds, and skills with 2-5 minute cooldowns took up about 5-10 skill slots for the average player. Still, no one was ever shoehorned into spamming skills off-cooldown, because there were so many off cooldown at any given time that the choice of what to cast next was always primarily determined by the battlefield; the question of which of the more reliably high-tier abilities had recently come off cooldown was only ever a side factor.
    simpetar wrote: »
    At the same time, spammable abilities that fill the gap just for the sake of filling the gap are kinda lame.
    I think you are being pretty shortsighted with what you're asking for. It is probably possible to introduce a bunch of flavourful spammable low-cooldown skills. All in the name of "no unnecessary limitations", and "always ready to use your reflexes and skillzz." But even if you manage that, I don't see a world where that doesn't result in less intriguing gameplay with less impressive spell/skill casts.

    The way this trend towards low cooldowns manifests is honestly absurd to me. All the great high-cooldown games I've played had higher time-to-kill averages than low-cooldown action-combat fiestas. That should be completely counterintuitive, because the the high-cooldown games necessarily have high-impact spells that really make a dent on the battlefield, so you'd think that would end in faster deaths and frustration over overpowered single casts. In fact, you should expect that that would be among the downsides of balancing around high cooldowns: The noob can just commit to pressing a bunch of impactful buttons and he'd effortlessly have almost as much impact as the tryhard who already had to spend his high-cooldown ability against his previous opponent, right?
    But low-cooldown action-combat games are so obsessed with the minigame of stacking self-buffs and damage procs on the opponent (because their low cooldowns force them to introduce other ways to make their skill systems interesting) that whenever two players clash, they tend to just immediately delete each other with their hyperefficient rotations, without there being real tactical interaction between them (just reflex-checks of blocks and counters), or a weight to their decisions, that goes beyond an excel damage spreadsheet.

    Sorry if back-and-forth discussion is discouraged in these pinned threads. I didn't find any rules about that, and simpetar's comment is close to the opposite of mine, so I'm curious about their response to a direct challenge of their ideas. If my comment gets deleted by a mod, I totally get it.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Generally, small damage skills have short cooldowns or are on GCD, so you can cast them back to back anyway. All the removal of the GCD or minimal cooldowns on the small damage skills will do is allow the same small damage skill to be used back to back rather than a different small damage skill. Really, small damage skills can still be spammed either way.
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  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Is elemental empowerment even good? If it is always on then why does it exist? Also, wouldn't it better better just to boost dps output overall than have a permanent buff taking up an ability slot?

    I understand the point, I just think a better application could be considered. I'd still switch elemental empowerment for Gift of the Magi and just boost the dps overall.
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  • VelkynVelkyn Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    IMO only the highest powerful spells should be on a cooldown rotation; the rest should be back-to-back.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Archers shoot indefinitely, fighters can swing their swords non-stop, so why should Mages be gimped and prevented from casting over and over? Again, only the most powerful actions should be on a cooldown. Mana management may be a contributing factor however an Arch (pure mage) Mage should rarely get in a 'Mana Empty' position.

    ...just my thoughts on the matter.
  • TacquitoTacquito Member
    edited May 2023
    Mana management should be very important. Skillful mana management should be an advantage, and poor mana management should be a disadvantage.

    Some encounters should push a caster's mana to it's limit, though with skillful mana management a caster should not need to sit to replenish during any encounter. Poor mana management by your healer or multiple dps = wipe. Every encounter need not be like this, but all should require thoughtful rotations that don't burn through all your mana.

    And support classes should be able to boost mana regen and/or reduce mana usage. Some classes should have skills that provide mana infusions. Potions should be available to help.
  • "Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?"

    Having a few abilities without a cool down is acceptable. I don't think being able to just spam abilities makes for good gameplay though.... and it goes hand in hand with the question about mana... when you are out of mana you should not be able to cast... so one still needs to be mindful as they cast.

    "Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?"

    Mana management is important. Otherwise why have it? I think the more powerful the ability is...the more mana you should burn through or looooong cast times if not a mana spell. I don't think it is necessary to sit and drink mana as it were though. Maybe just arrange it to where you consume mana faster when not in combat. If in combat you just get a quick small dose of mana. Again putting the player in a situation of they need to be mindful of mana and then make the decision of do I get out of combat to mana up to 100%. Or do I risk small bumps of mana to stay engaged fighting a boss/foe.



  • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation? Depends a bit on the ability. Generally abilities should have a cooldown, since weapon attacks are playing an important role in AoC.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana management absolutely is important, and should be a contributing factor factor over long encounters. The mage should not have to rest after every mob kill while leveling, but should have to sit and rest once in a while. If there is no need to manage mana, why have an energy system at all?
  • Regarding the question of mana management, it's important to consider the gameplay implications of requiring Mages to stop and rest to regain their mana. While this might be realistic in terms of simulating the limitations of a physical body, it doesn't necessarily make for a fun or engaging game mechanic. Having to repeatedly stop and rest in order to continue playing the game can be a frustrating experience.

    Having access to basic attacks that don't consume any resources and don't have a cooldown can be a great way to deal sustained damage and stay engaged in the gameplay. It's also important to have skills with cooldowns to add variety to the gameplay and prevent spamming of skills. Personally, I believe that having basic attacks with no cooldown and skills with cooldowns strikes a good balance between the two.

    When it comes to mana management, a burst mana regeneration skill similar to healing skills in Guild Wars 2 could be an engaging way to incorporate mana management in Ashes of Creation. This skill would have a cast time, making the Mage vulnerable to being interrupted by their opponents. By having this element in place, opponents can choose to time their CC skills to deny a Mage the opportunity to replenish their mana during combat. This adds another layer of depth to the gameplay, where players need to be mindful of their opponents' strategies and react accordingly.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Other than Gift of the Magi, I had hoped Bard would deal with Mana Regeneration and Mana Distribution. Not sure if Cleric will still have Castigation or not.
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  • BobTheMagicalFishBobTheMagicalFish Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    edited May 2023
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?


    I misinterpreted the question the first time around, thank you Laetitian for correcting me - but essentially I don't think there should be any spells that you can cast back to back without cooldown, and if there is then it should have maybe an increased mana consumption each time you do. I believe we are being given enough choices where we should think about what to use next rather than use the same skill several times in a row. Standard abilities should have the usual cooldowns, ranging from 5s to 20s, self buffs with 30s to 1m, and defense or "in a pickle" abilities should have a much longer cooldown (and/or consume a large amount of mana). Having cooldowns shouldn't hinder the player from making effective decisions.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Personally, I don't particularly care about the amount of thought that goes into resource management. But for mages, I believe mana management should be something they are constantly aware of, especially if mana does become a contributing factor to the Mage's total output.

    As for a skilled mage sustaining themselves infinitely, I'm not entirely sure. I agree with this only if other classes have the ability to do the same. For example, if a highly skilled rogue manages their resource effectively, (whether it be stamina or mana or whatever is decided in the end) then they should also be able to use their abilities to evade and sustain themselves unless they get greedy/misplay. It's a bit hard to say because while I don't disagree with the idea of mages sustaining themselves, I would also want to know how this compares to other classes?
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited May 2023
    Arlysal wrote: »
    I definitely would not want all abilities to have a cooldown rotation, in case I might have misinterpreted, it's essentially like GCDs, like in FFXIV, I am absolutely not a fan of that. I agree with one of the earlier comments I saw saying the animation of the cast should be "cooldown".

    No, fairly certain you did misinterpret the question. It's not about global cooldown, it's about whether all abilities should have meaningful cooldowns at all. (Think for example: at least 5 seconds; average somewhere between 45 and 60 seconds.) As opposed to there being a lot of abilities with no, or negligible, cooldowns.

    Obviously GCD is still relevant in this subject, but the fact that they talked about "cooldown rotations" makes it pretty clear to me that they were talking about the other thing.
  • SjeldenSjelden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Excellent work on the mage archetype.

    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I would prefer to leave spammable abilities to weapon base attacks. Spells should all have cooldown.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana and resource management should matter. Achieving a cast-all-day state of mana regeneration should be accomplished through gear, talents, skill augments, buffs from other classes, and clever rotation.
    It should also be something the mage had to work for (both discovering the combinations, grinding the gear, and testing combinations of augments and talents). It should not come easy, and the mana regeneration downtime should offset the mages higher damage output. "Burning mana" should be a thing to quickly eliminate threats by balancing high damage output versus agro and downtime.

    Wizard in Everquest had the ability to maintain a decent dps when balancing mana and output, or sink all mana in a single encounter to really burn down the targets quickly. This could, to some extent, work as a tertiery type of "crowd control".

    In World of Warcraft, mana was close to irrelevant, and mages became a spellcasting archer. Meh.

    The more important resource management gets, the higher the difficulty, and the more rewarding the experience. Choosing the right skill at the right time should not only affect the outcome of the encounter, but also the aftermath of that encounter. More conservative use of mana results in less downtime.
  • "Would you prefer to ... cooldown rotation?"
    I would like to have several spells that can be used one after the other without rolling back. Is that... logical? I mean, a mage uses a spell, why not use it again? He just used the same spell. However, I agree that subsequent identical spells will have less damage, or no defense effect.
    "Is mana management important to you? Should mana ... infinitely?"
    Mana management is extremely important and mana management should be a major factor in overall performance in long encounters. I believe that a mage should manage his mana through a passive skill inherent in his primary archetype. I mean: the Mage+Mage class has a passive skin that reduces their mana consumption in %, for each of their spells. Mage+ ... Restores mana from the damage dealt by his spells on the enemy. Mage+... Restores mana by stealing mana from allies in a large area. Mage+... When his mana is depleted, he consumes his health instead of his mana, etc.
    Mana management through passive skills.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2023
    Sorceress in Warhammer Online lost health through spell casting. Levelling without a healer was absolute hell.

    Edit: it also doesn't make sense for a Mage to have to sit and replenish health instead of Mana if you don't like waiting for mana regeneration.
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