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Dev Discussion #51 - Let’s Discuss the Mage

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  • BobTheMagicalFishBobTheMagicalFish Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    Laetitian wrote: »
    No, fairly certain you did misinterpret the question. It's not about global cooldown, it's about whether all abilities should have meaningful cooldowns at all. (Think for example: at least 5 seconds; average somewhere between 45 and 60 seconds.) As opposed to there being a lot of abilities with no, or negligible, cooldowns.

    Obviously GCD is still relevant in this subject, but the fact that they talked about "cooldown rotations" makes it pretty clear to me that they were talking about the other thing.


    Oh my bad, I instantly thought of GCDs, I'll change my answer to reflect that. Well, I'm glad it was clear to you.
  • Mana or cooldowns seems to be the question here, and ultimately it becomes a design philosophy. Is the mage a ranged dps, or are they fundamentally playing with the fabrics of reality? Let's do a short case study.

    Let's compare mages from UO to mages from Tera. Tera obviously is a solid example of action rpg combat, it used cooldowns instead of mana. It was incredibly fun for me, fast paced pve and good combos. You could really feel when you everything lands just right.

    In Ultima Online, Mages were, and are, gods for about 4 seconds until they run out of mana and flee for their lives. In that time they'll paralyze you, hit you with two spells, paralyze you again, then finish you off. Weapon based users though have great sustain.

    So in this case we see that they tackled mages in very different ways and had different effects. I think that although Tera was fun, I wouldn't call the mage type classes in it particularly unique. Essentially they were a "big damage big range" class. Without the ability to be a tactical nuke and change the shape of the battlefield, they're milquetoast. On the other far end, mages in UO were my literal nightmare as a kid when pvp was an option anywhere outside of town. Exciting to run from the Vesper bank to the moongate, yes, but not fun to have it end in 4 seconds the exact same way that it has every other time.

    So what I would like to propose as the happy medium here is this - big damage spells come with big risk. Hard CC comes with skillshots and cooldowns. Let the mage blow their entire arsenal of massive effect big damage spells in a short amount of time, then they're all on cooldown for a long time. Long enough that other players can dunk on them if the spells don't do what they're supposed to. Additionally, balance the amount of big damage massive battlefield effect spells with fat cooldowns with a similar amount of lower cooldown spells. This way the players can design their kit to do either nukes or sustain.

    Incidentally, that's what I see you guys are doing with the design, and I'm happy. Thaaaaanks
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It would be excellent if we can put skill points into any skills, rather than unlocking skills through skill point application. It would be appropriate to limit this by levels perhaps but it would be awesome to be selective and not waste skill points.

    For mage and all classes.
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  • GynGyn Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    Variety is the spice of life. A solid selection of chainable lower power skills, maybe a few moderate power chainables with negative side effects like mana consumption or slowing movement, s channel spell or two on cooldown, and a few big nukes on cooldown. Also, please keep a global cooldown for all classes.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Stopping to regen mana is part of being a mage, just like stopping to get health back is part of being a fighter. That said, perhaps with special focus on mana regen the mage could tech into higher sustain? I wouldn't mind the mage being able to bring sustain to a group either, unless that gets squarely with the bard class.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Gcd was for poor Internet. We don't really need gcd on current Internet speeds. Combat would be much improved with no gcd like the mage showcase.
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  • Yw0keYw0ke Member
    -Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    • I like complicated, i want to be able to optimize my rotation one way or an other. I also like having options. So i can play my character my way and be creative. I feel like the question you ask can be answered easyly tho ; I think there should be a mix but only like 1/5~ of your skillbar should be "instant cast" in term of efficency/dps/balance.
    -Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
    • Very important ! Mana reserve should be everything to the Mage and so why not put it on a spectrum whereas you can sustain yourself over long engagement if you manage your dps output BUT you can decide to got for broke and empty the gas tank for moar dps. It might be difficult to balance to avoid the classic glasscanon build completly overpowered and unfair but if you manage to find the spot it might be the most satisfaying way to do it for Mages to feel completly in control.
  • CielVCielV Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    Low dmg abilities should have short or no cd whilst the abilities with high dmg or influence should have higher cd.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana mangement is important because it you have to be concious of what actions you take and that creates a certain skill gap between some mages. it also creates the desire to get items that will expand your mana pool.
    and for certain abilities that will last longer over time i think it would be good and cool if the longer you have the ability active the more dmg it does and the more mana it uses in exchange.
    I think either items that makes you generate mana faster is a good thing or some kind of active skill for the mage or maybe even bard, that makes you generate mana quicker while resting would be a good idea for a mid/high lvl mage/bard. which could be a good augment for some summoners too but the summoned can only help with the generation a bit slower or only a certain amount.
  • Would you rather have a few spells that can be cast consecutively with no cooldowns, or would you rather have all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?


    --- Spells that can be cast consecutively with no cooldown, naturally. It doesn't make sense for a current game to have rotation or cooldowns.


    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output in longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should stop and rest, or a skilled Mage should have the means to support himself indefinitely?

    ---Mana management should be proportionate to a usage amount and not a usage time. Mana should not depend on rest, but on the existing amount proportional to what is gathered or saved by the mage, like a potion and never a life energy.
  • It's fine if there's no abilities without a cooldown, that's what Basic Attacks are for. But that kinda just changes the question to "Should basic attacks be a part of the Mage's rotation, or should there be enough abilities that you never have to rely on basic attacks?"

    Seeing how basic attacks were actually somewhat useful/interesting in the livestream, for stacking up elements (more quickly than abilities could, and for free) I think it's fine for them to remain a core part of the mage rotation. They do something unique and they don't feel like a waste of time. And to be honest I like to have a little bit of "filler" or "downtime" in rotations as a quick breather, so I think this iteration is pretty ideal for that.

    As for mana, let me start with the worst implementation that I think needs to be avoided at all costs: Mana should not act as a limiter for how long you can fight. Fights should not abruptly and anti-climactically end, just because you went OOM.

    That being said, I do think it should be possible to go OOM and good mana management should be a part of proper Mage gameplay (unless maybe you pick augments to avoid that particular weakness). The key is that you should be making little decisions over time to optimize your mana efficiency when you anticipate a longer fight, while trying not to sacrifice too much DPS. Weaving in those free basic attacks is a good start for that kind of gameplay. Maybe there's also an element combination you can do that gives a mana refund. Or maybe you can use a Counter ability to absorb a hit and turn it into mana.

    And crucially, if you do go OOM, there should be quick/easy ways to get mana back in a fight (with some kind of cost, usually just the opportunity cost of more damage). Again, the failure state should not be "I'm useless for the rest of the fight," but rather "I need to take a few seconds to reload" or "I need to use an alternate rotation (still fun and useful, but lower DPS) for a while."

    And I think there should also be the option to burn a bunch of mana at once in order to do more burst damage if you think that's more important for the fight than overall mana efficiency/DPS. Just another small risk/reward thing.

    Oh and I didn't mention anything about recuperating in between encounters... I just don't think it's very important in the above gameplay model. Sure you want to start a fight with full mana, but it's not 100% necessary. I don't mind the sit-and-drink style of regeneration, but I'd prefer to just get mana back passively while walking to the next encounter. I don't have strong feelings on that, though.

    (I wrote this all with PvE in mind, but I think it's broad enough to apply to PvP as well.)
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2023
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I'm not opposed to some abilities with no cooldown. If it lessens basic attack spam I'd view that as positive. I don't need them either though. And they have to fit in with overall combat system/class balance.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes, yes and yes. Should a mage have to stop and rest? Not necessarily...but maybe depending on thier build. But no ESO style "sustain" builds. Sustain builds in general are fine, but not ESO style where you have infinite mana/stamina that you never run out of. There should be options in the skill tree to give yourself more sustain. But picking a less sustain and more damage/utility route should be viable in it's own right.

    Active skills to regain mana, passive skills, mana return on hit, mana drain, consumables, any or all of these things can be used to sustain. But no combination of them should passively give infinite mana. You should always have to manage mana in some kind of active way.
  • Q: Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    A: A single skill fast cast/animation, low power, low mana cost cooldownless arcane spell is something i certainly expect mages in Ashes to have, as a long-range option for Elemental Empowerment stacking to reach more melee weapon viability, Arcane Volley could probably be balanced into becoming such skill.

    All the rest of the combat skills can fit in the idea of "various abilities with different cooldown rotations" for different combos with different results,
    Examples:

    A rotation with the highest possible DPS, but it put the mage in close-range danger and/or has very long casts and/or Giga Mana costs and/or huge cooldowns.and/or no CCs.

    A rotation with the lowest DPS , but it's long-range and/or has fast casts and/or low mana costs and/or small cooldowns and/or some CCs.

    Then there is everything in between, the number of possibilities tweaking the variables is endless.

    Q: Is mana management important to you?

    A: Definitely, mana in games that don't have mana management, have mana as meaningless stat that would change nothing in the game if removed.

    Q: Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters?

    A: Certainly, if mana isn't a "contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters" the mana stat becomes meaningless, the longer the encounter, the more skillful the mana management should be.

    Q: Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    A: Not Necessary either, but i believe both should be a possibility depending on the mage player,
    if the mage player is terrible unskilled in their mana management they should run out of it reasonably fast,
    If the mage player has knowledge, strategy, optimal and skillful application in their mana management they should be rewarded with not infinite but somewhat close to "infinite mana sustain" in the right circunstances, enough to sustain themselves throught reasonably long encouters.

    Not only for themselves, i believe mages should also have a big impact in their whole party's mana management.
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    Aren't we all sinners?
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It would be cool if the lightning can arch around an allied player due to the collision system.
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  • >Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I like having some spells that can be cast back to back.
    I think it's fine to have less potent spells that are basically spammable and have stronger spells on cooldowns. For stronger spells on cooldowns I imagine really hard hitting ST or AoE abilities, hard cc or utility based skills.

    >Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Depends a bit on the other classes in the game. If most/all the other classes don't have any downtime then being a Mage and having to stop and rest while your group/raid continues can feel really bad.
    I am personally fine with either no mana issues or having mana issues, but tbh I always liked the trade off of certain spells costing a lot of mana but having a lot more impact. So you have to be concise about using certain spells, meanwhile there's cheap spells where you basically don't have to care about your Mana.
    I must also say I liked the Arcane Mage approach in WoW in certain expansions where spells could stack up to do enhanced damage but would cost more Mana so you had to balance your stacks/mana to do optimal damage. That system is very hard to balance though and can also feel frustrating in certain scenarios so I am not sure if it's worth the hassle.
  • SpifSpif Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    I would prefer to have some "baseline" attacks have no cooldown. Baseline attacks are attacks that are doing damage slightly higher than auto-attack (not taking into account spec). Lightning Strike, Frost Bolt and (presumably) Fire Bolt for the mage.

    Instant casts and "burst window" abilities should have cooldowns. CC's and defensive abilities probably should too

    Please keep a GCD that is slightly shorter than the shortest animation (to leave room for haste effects) so we don't have animation canceling antics. Something like 0.8s

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana management should be important. Having enough mana for a longer encounter should be a spec and skill selection choice. Whether your mana bar lasts 30 sec, 2 min, 5 min or forever should be possible spec choices. There should be a tradeoff of lower damage/defense/mobility/utility for lower casting costs or higher mana regen. Obviously, anyone can sustain infinitely with some % of auto-attacks. That should be considered the damage floor.

    This is going to relate directly to Bard group utility. If a Bard's mana regen gives 20% faster mana regen, then how much effective damage does that add to a Mage in a longer fight?

    IMO stopping to rest for mana should be an option for someone who blew through their mana, but not a necessity for most situations
  • TriforCeTriforCe Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2023
    For me it’s all about the combat cadence, I don’t want down time; basic combat attacks when interwoven should help accomplish that like shown in the video.

    Instead of downtime when spells are on cooldown, you can add *meaningful flavor spells that bolster damage, interweave CC, long recast high DD spells, or my favorite from EQOA was a specialization that let you recover mana quickly by meditating; you opted for either greater DPS spells or mana recovery. I’d love to see the Sorcerer Hybrid (Mage + Bard) accomplish just that.

    I also wanted to add, in an effort to accomplish routine casting of high damage spells, you could see this flourish say when paired with an enchanter that gives a significant mana regen buff if they specd for it; party composition synchronization is one way to accomplish this also.

    I am still hopeful party sizes arent larger than 6 members (ideally 5) so classes can truly shine and the *holy trinity is promoted as you all have said you are building off of; anything more than 5 members feels like a Zerg and I’ve played almost every MMO over the past 20 years; combat for me has always felt more meaningful with a more intimate group where decisions mattered and risk vs reward yielded a better psychological pay off. With 6 + party members you have so much overlap and room for error it trivializes the combat in my opinion; it also detracts from the holy trinity framework.

    I also like having options available for my builds - take for example going for a larger mana pool that regens faster / sustained DPS versus higher burst damage. Ideally I’d like to accomplish the aforementioned by passive and active specializations & gear. Again, I’d encourage your devs to play Hogwarts Legacy, the mage combat cadence was engaging and rewarding; it would be even more impressive in AoC with the greater variety of spells and specializations.

    In addition, I truly hope gear is meaningful in that - those that are raiding the latest content, perform and cause significant more damage than those that aren’t at that tier, both in PvP and PvE battles; they also have a significantly larger mana pool and can cast more expensive spells *back to back.

    Those that invest the time should be SIGNIFICANTLY better than players that don’t or the more casual players - what’s the incentive otherwise? Better in the sense of greater defense / resistance, higher damage and larger mana pool.

    THE SAME HOLDS TRUE FOR THE SUMMONER CLASS - please ensure a hardcore player’s pets benefit, and are noticeably better than a casual player’s. Almost every game makes the summoner class’s pets uniform across the board - the summoner’s pets should be an extension of the player’s power / gear reflected in their overall performance; easily accomplished by taking into account gear stats or unlocking new pet abilities both active and passive by harvesting rare monster materials that are fused to your pet. I’d love to see legendary raid loot create truly legendary raid tier pets both with respect to performance and unique graphics for the pet(s).




  • MoraxisMoraxis Member
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    • I would prefer that you don't have to balance both time and mana. Cooldowns don't feel great, so if the intent is to make it so that skills cannot be used, just make the mana cost really high.
    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
    • In line with my comments on the other discussion, please do not make the mage become useless for periods of time. This is not compelling gameplay and will deter large numbers of people from playing mage. In other words, no, mages should not be required to stop and rest. I am open to the idea of higher damage skills costing more mana so they cannot be used all of the time, but a mage should be able to continuously cast. There could be a separate mana gauge for the skills that should not be able to be used frequently, which regenerates slowly, or based on usage of other skills, but does not require those other skills to be lower damage. Using different elements should require different types of gameplay (faster or slower movement, longer or shorter range, different types of control), but no one element should be inherently more damaging than another. Not everyone should have to play fire mage all the time in order to do the most damage. Again, look at GW2 elementalist (but don't use cooldowns, if at all possible).
  • How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    I feel the mage is missing the long startup, big hitting spells currently. Fortunately, this is probably where the fire spells come in to help with spells that have a bit of movement agency taken away in favor of big AOE’s and high impact damage as well as big ignites, etc.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    I like the idea of allowing a minimum of at least walking speed during almost every (if not every) spell cast. Since there seems to be a good amount of skill shot usage in the game, I think the ability to move needs to remain in order to attempt to dodge skillshots in PVP and AOE’s in PVE (without having to cancel the spell). The level of mobility during certain spells is also another dimension that can balance the abilities and add additional decision making for the player to interact with (both in gameplay and specializations).

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    I think the clear distinction between when one spell has finished and another has begun is good for PVP play because then a player can notice at a glance what ability is being used against them and make a decision on whether or not that is the spell they want to CC the mage during or use a defensive cooldown against.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    Currently it seems like there is a “right way” to play with the abilities shown. The hope is that there will be multiple “right ways” when more depth is added and each player can express their playstyles and personalities through the kits. Meanwhile, they can also use that same kit dynamically to react based upon the situation and not be forced into doing the same rotation everyone else does at all times.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    The mage fills an important role in MMOs. Master of spells and many elements which have different gameplay implications. Ice mages controlling the battlefield with CC and area denial. Lightning mages using speed and unpredictability. Fire mages using hard hitting abilities, ignites, and large AOEs. As well as other types of magic that have different themes attached to them all encompassed in a single archetype. Getting those different parts of a spellcaster to all still be unique yet also fit under one umbrella of the mage in a cohesive kit is what is exciting about the mage archetype.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    Elementalist in GW2 achieved the master of elements and flowing state of gameplay based upon those elements very well. Meanwhile, FF14's red mage does a great job of having a flexible rotation and playstyle that can easily change based upon the conditions of the game, but they may have too much utility for what is desired from the mage archetype.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    I am somewhat worried the mage might come off as being too well rounded. I believe the mage needs a playstyle which is a bit more spiky, with a bit harder edges.
  • MalakMalak Member
    I pretty much agree with everyone here.
    As stated earlier, I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel.

    *** Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation? ***

    I'm pretty sure a mix is what your looking for...
    Each spell should be looked at individually. based on a spells power (not just damage, but overall power), cooldowns may be needed, high mana costs might be needed, long cast times might be needed etc.

    Blink does no damage but is still a powerful instant cast spell. Blink should have medium to high mana cost and have a cd (cooldown) associated with it. 30s would be a good starting point

    Fireball is a high damage spell but takes 3s to cast. Fireball should have a high mana cost but no cd timer associated with it

    *** Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? ***

    Yes I believe it is important, but it shouldn't be game breaking.

    A mage spamming fireball should run out of mana rather quickly without the mana regenerating abilities of other classes.

    That being said, I think every class should be able to mitigate how long it takes to regenerate their class specific energy. These abilities should be controlled with cooldowns or be situational.

    A mage may have a 3s channel spell on a 60s timer that replenishes 33.3% of his mana every second. The downside to this is it may be interrupted so the mage may not be able gain all their mana back. It may also require full concentration and if the mage is hit with physical damage while channeling, the cast may be set back causing that 3s channel to be 5s to get full affect or force the mage to cancel the channel outright because they are simply taking to much physical damage. Luckily, the mage is able to down a mana potion and Blink away to his Bard that is playing a song that regenerates mana and stamina to everyone around him...

    *** Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely? ***

    Asking any class of character to stop and rest during a drawn out battle is simply ridiculous, limit the amount of output damage they can do, sure...

    As I said earlier: I think there should be ways every class is be able to mitigate how long it takes to regenerate their class specific energy. Most certainly in a group or party setting.

    By end game (end of story line) I don't think anyone in a group should be running out of energy at any time. Running solo may run you out of mana but certainly not indefinitely.

    There should always be shouts, siphons, prayers, songs, potions... etc. that will keep a group or war party fighting by some sort of energy regeneration (maybe not for every second of a fight but certainly to sustain fight ability)

    If we hate it IRL, why put it in a video game? I play video games to have fun and escape real life for a time.
    For this reason the idea of having to sit down and REST for 30 seconds to regenerate energy (even in PvE)... adds nothing to the quality of the game and is what I would call a time sink (these are not good in a video game).

    A better way, in my opinion, is the flagged out of combat fast regeneration of energy. its not immediate, but at least I can summon my mount and start moving to a new location, or scout the next set of MOBs I'm going to attack while my energy is regenerating. there is no "stopage" in game play. Being forced to sit and rest is not fun and quite frankly not even viable in a lot of video game situations and certainly not during combat.
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited May 2023

    1. Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?


    -I definitely prefer back-to-back skill usage. I hate the idea of having to wait to perform an action that I need access to, especially if I didn't really make a mistake at all during a fight and already used that ability in a skillful way simply because the opponent behaved in a way that called for me to use that action. This would feel like it punishes me for using my actions in a skillful way, if I would then have to wait for cooldown to be able to use it again even if I need access to those actions. So, unless this is absolutely necessary from a balance perspective, such as a high reward option having a higher risk through longer cooldown- then I want it to be possible to perform actions back to back, and have my options available as I need them (its okay if this requires skillful mana management to accomplish).

    I think the main purpose of not allowing back-to-back skill usage is both to encourage the timing of when to use your ability, and to allow one combatant to gain the upper hand by baiting the usage of that ability, knowing it will then go on cooldown for a while. But I think that these things can inherently be accomplished through the riskier/reward aspect of combat abilitites, since the higher risk abilities will require careful usage, due to their niche nature and punishment when not used correctly, which will require good timing to use will because they can be baited out from the opponent. Based on this I think the ability to gain the upper hand and the importance of timing can coexist without unneccesary cooldowns, while still allowing the player to decide when they want to use an ability and have access to it as needed, rather than being forced to wait for a cooldown when they need to use an ability within its intended use-case scenario. There is also the mana managrment aspect which is already a means of tipping the scales of a battle and encouraging careful ability usage, without having to limit abilities through unnecessary cooldowns. I think it would be beneficial to at least look at the methods of balancing used by fighting games to get a good idea on how to balance movesets with a lot of agency, risk/reward, and complexity- and how to adapt those ideas into the feel and flow of ashes combat. (I think Super Smash Bros Ultimate would be a good case study on this)


    -Basically my main point is that you cant always control when you need to use a specific ability, because the opponent plays a big role in determining that based on their behaviors during a fight (like if they choose to keep getting up in your face then you need to be capable of attempting to retreat away if you are a ranged class), so the skill should come in knowing that its time to use that ability, based on space/timing/not falling for baits due to the inherent risk of those skills/etc., rather than being forced into that particular situation and having no control over it or counterplay available, simply because you have to wait for an arbitrary cooldown. This feels more rng, than skill based, because you could have the same end result of one opponent gaining the advantage through skilled usage of their kit, as opposed to them gaining an advantage because they forced a cooldown regardless of the fact that you used that skill in the way it was intended. Its just more gameplay, more skill, more counterplay, more natural/organic combat, more agency, more risk/reward, etc. without an arbitrary limitation. More often than not, the player should be conditioned through the gameplay itself to not use certain skills at certain timings, and have the ability to counterplay through their own conditioning of the opponent on those timings, rather than being forced not to use them through cooldowns. The other aspect is that mana management already kind of fills that same role that cooldowns fill in this context, except it happens due to a lack of mana management skills. I like that aspect. I don't think its necessary to stack cooldowns on top of mana management, it just feels very restrictive.





    2. Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters?



    -yes, mana management is important and should matter for optimizing performance, but it should be active and fun to do, it should add another layer of decision-making on which abilities to use/what actions to take in order to sustain your mana, it should not be an arbitrary limitation, but should instead reward taking action and promote fluidity, but with an added layer of management. Active abilities or other means that allow you to restore mana would be great. It provides more depth and another way to engage with the combat system, but it should actually be engaging and enhance the gameplay. It should work cohesively with the rest of combat, it should encourage fluidity, and tough choices, and should not there just to be an arbitrary restriction/limitation that halts the fun.

    It would be fun if successfully performed skills reward you with mana, such as using the I-frames during rolls to avoid attacks, or performing perfect blocks, or landing attacks, etc., with the higher risk options giving more mana back. This would be a positive feedback loop for skillful combat and engaging with various combat options, while also providing that management aspect in your decision making based on the amount of mana you have- I think this would be an interesting way of providing skillful sustainability.


    -It would also be cool if there are dedicated universal active abilities/class-specific mechanics relating to health/mana sustain for all the classes. Things like a health/mana drain ranged skill for mages, or a draining melee skill for fighters, etc.

    -Maybe even a meditation skill where you can charge your health/mana when in a safe position could work well.





    3. Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?



    They should not be required to stop and rest if they are skilled enough. This is unneccessary and unfun. Stopping should be a choice based on the risk of the situation, or through being defeated by a more skilled opponent, or even just based on the player's gameplay/content preference or mood, and not based on an arbitrary time gate that forces them to stop. This does not mean stopping and resting becomes irrelevant, as that can still have a niche use, even if sustainability is possible. Stopping and resting would also be an option for those who are not skillful enough to sustain themselves during combat. A mage should be able to skillfully and actively sustain their mana infinitely. I think this philosophy should apply to all classes and their ability to sustain their health, mana, and their class-specific resources.


    Obviously this could manifest in different ways based on the encounter. If the encounter requires a group of people, then it may be optimal to have a teammate aid in providing infinite mana sustain, wheras a solo-oriented encounter may allow for an individual player to have infinite mana sustain with no outside support. Since mana is such a big part of using skills and having fun- if group play is required for managing mana, I just prefer that it is still fun and engaging even if your group isn't doing their part. You wouldn't want that fun ruined by a teammate who can't help you manage your mana. If that teamwork is required to accomplish content and you have a bad group then you should be less efficient obviously, but it should still be fun to play even at less group-efficiency.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?


    Mixing off gdc abilities into a gdc rotation is the most engaging Mage gameplay I've come across in any MMO. Nothing but GDC is boring, while too much off gdc becomes a spamfest along with effectively eliminating most of your abilities since people will just spam the hardest hitting.
    You need a good mix of both, you also need the off GDC spells on larger cooldowns. People need to be forced to decide how to intermix their off gdc if they can't spam it every few seconds.


    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?


    Yes, mana management should be central. If it's not a major factor then it shouldn't be there. Again resource management forces decisions. Without decisions it just devolves into a spam fest, and without decisions skill is a non factor.

    As far as the Mage demo, I think it would have been fine if the abilities were hitting harder. The health bar needs to drop a lot more than what we were seeing in order for DPS players to feel like their class is strong and worth the effort.
    If the health bars had been dropping a lot faster the narrative would have changed to: "Wow that looked great, but will there be faster builds that don't hit as hard as well?"
  • Yokai TheaterYokai Theater Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    nyan60q1pcn0.png
  • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    - yes, quicker gameplay makes for a higher player skill cap, if everything has a long cd everyone will be able to master every class with little difficulty

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    - you should be able to sustain yourself, in games like for example ESO you get back mana when you perform a heavy attack, i would like to see mechanics like this in combat
    the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
  • Hello Vaknar, I have some points regarding your question, and some feedbacks about the Mage stream.

    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    Personally I would prefer abilities on a cooldown rotation, this to provide a more deep on the class (and classes): the acquisition of the skills and spells is the “easy” part, but mastering them for a rotation during a raid, o change tactics in PvP to counter other classes or situation is the “hard” part. If skills and spells should not have any cooldown, the only way to stop spamming them is when the mana ends, and it would be a flat mechanic with no depth (my personal opinion).

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Mana management is important not only for the mage, but for any class. To me it means how many skills/spells a character can use before resting, or regenerate it in other ways. Regarding the mage, a class very dependent from mana, during long encounters and in general, should have different ways to regen his own mana:

    1) Resting: common with other classes, resting during a safe moment helps any classes to regenerate their resources on top of other buffs and possibilities. A personal addition to a possible “Resting skill”: decrease the cooldown of spells/skills used, and granting a short buff that provide mana/health regeneration (less when the character is resting), and other possible effects, depending the skill level and personalization with other specializations.

    2) Buffs from food/scrolls/items: common with other classes, it is possible to self-buff to have various effects, and one of it is the mana regeneration. Personally I would make a strict CAP to these, like 1 food, 1 scroll, 1 other item; like GW2: only 1 food and 1 utility. This because self over-buffing with multiple items could make both PvP and PvE encounters unfunny and unfair (my personal opinion).

    3) Specialization for some sub-classes: common with other classes, some subclasses could provide some ways to recover/regenerate some mana, or decrease the mana cost of the skills/spells.

    4) Buffs from other classes: common with other classes, some classes or specializations of the players, could provide buffs to restore/regenerate mana, decrease the mana cost, etc…

    5) Build of the mage (passive skills): depending on the skills that build the mage, and other classes, it could be possible to sacrifice some firepower to have more utilities, like: increase mana pool, decrease mana consumption, increase mana regeneration and so on…

    6) Build of the mage (active skills): there could be active skills for the mages that would help to manage mana, for example:

    - In Lineage 2 (many Chronicles ago), the dark mages (Necromancer and Storm Screamer) had the skill to sacrifice health to restore mana. This skill was unique only for those 2 dark classes, and that allowed an unique class mechanic with other 2 spells: one spell makes more damage based on the missing health, another spell steals health from the target. With the combinations of these 3 skills, those classes could cast almost indefinitely, at the cost of playing with constant very low health. This mechanic, or something similar, could be possible with a specific build in Ashes of Creation, but personally I would touch the “life steal button” very lightly for various reasons: it could make specific classes too much auto-sustain, can broke class ballance, and it is more a “corrupted” theme. Sacrificing health to have mana could be a possibility for Mages that specialize in dark arts.

    - Assimilate from defeated foes: Spellcasters only: for their understanding with the Essence, spellcaster classes could assimilate a little portion of mana from defeated foes.

    7) Gear bonus: common with other classes, various bonuses from the gear, there could be mana regeneration, mana pool and mana consumption.

    8) Environment bonus: common with other classes, but Mages could benefit more from it: there could be some places where the Essence is more tangible, for this spellcast classes could draw mana from it. This could result in various ways, like very specific locations that spawn randomly or after specific events/quests/evolution or type of the node. The bonuses could cover large areas, but this sounds more like a node-like bonuses.Personally I would choose little areas of concentration of Essence that spawns randomly, so groups of players could interact regarding the control of these areas: more mana, more skills, more actions, more hunting. Also by staying in particular environment, like ice storm, sand storm, volcano, or lighting storm, spells of that specific element could cost less mana.

    9) Corrupted skills/spells: common with other classes, there could be a possibility to increase the power of the character by corrupting the skills/ spells, at the cost of having a permanent flag for the duration of the corruption. Corrupted skills/spells can steal health and mana from the targets, or access to entirely different skills/spells to do it, probably something related to the Other or the Ancient Gods. By having access to these corruption, the character becomes an enemy to other players. I think this is very thematic, because The Seven Gods look more prone to a “grow theme” instead of a “leech theme”. The Corruption mechanic would provide more power based on the karma that the player has, so the more players he kills, the more the corruption advance, and the more he is defeated by other players, the more the karma decreases, providing less power. There could also be other actions or quests that corrupted players could do to purify on their own, decreasing karma and not be corrupted anymore, but losing all the benefits of corrupted skills.

    10) Zone of Essence during a boss: During a battle against particular bosses, when some mechanics are done, or after some stages (every 25% HP for example), a part of the Essence of the boss could appear, and players that stick in that area cold refill their Mana, or the Mana regeneration is higher there.

    Regarding the livestream, I liked it a lot, and I have some feedbacks about it:

    Blink - Solid and very useful in a lot of situations, from the stream I see the character can move among terrain with different elevation with this spell, very nice!

    Shell - Would be nice to visualize how many damage points it can absorb, and a graphic visualization when it dissipates/ends.

    Ball of lighting - Looks cool, Curious about it for the various possibilities, probably too much flashy (please do not hate me) if related to other spells.

    Blizzard - Looks Great and powerful. At high level, can it be used with other movement skills, like blink, without interrupting the cast? Like “skill synergy".

    Cone of Cold - Looks useful when there is an enemy in melee.

    Lightning Strike - Clear, simple and direct, I like it. Personally I would change it a little bit: normal or higher damage in the open world, less damage in a closed environment, this because there is no sky in a cavern or in a building.

    Elemental Empowerment - Sounds like a cool mechanic for the mage, I’m curious how it can be personalized with various builds, or possible changes for balance.

    Frostbolt - looks cool, and a good combo with the Shock status for the increased damage, I am curious if in the future it will have other interactions with the status effects of other elemental statuses.

    Slumber - From an ex Lineage 2 player, this can be incredibly broken in PvP. In PvE, it would be nice if some mobs types have some sort of resistance to not being in sleep status, make the duration of the status shorter, and other monster types that don't sleep (like the undead), are totally immune.

    Chain Lightning - From the description I can’t read how many targets it will hit after the primary target. Does it also apply elemental stacks on the secondary targets?

    Arcane Volley - Cool visual, would be nice to have different effects with the different elements applied on the target.

    Regarding other stuff:

    Weapon swap - Would be nice to be able to swap weapons on the fly, like separate slots near the skill bar, instead to access the inventory.

    Casting animations - For my personal opinion, they should be simple and unique for every magic spell. This would make it easier for the players to read on screen what is happening and what spell has been used.

    Elemental Stacks - From the video, it looks like that when there is an elemental effect when the stacks of a specific element reach 10, and the target gets frozen or stunned, the enemy can still get stacks if attacked with the elements. This can provide a lot of advantages for both playing solo, but especially with other mages.

    Applying stacks in solo: It doesn’t make (for what I see) “perma Frost/Frozen” or “perma Stun/Shock” playstyle. Simple and direct on a single target, could be inefficient in a chaotic fight with multiple enemies, where the focus has to switch from one target to another, and the mage could not build enough stacks on the same target..

    Applying stacks in group of mages: playing with 2 or 3 mages could potentially make “perma Frost/Frozen” or “perma Stun/Shock” playstyle on the targets, if the mages are applying the same stacks of the same elements, in case the system allow the stacks from different players to sum. There could be various ways to avoid it, I thought about these points to avoid abuse:

    Building up resistance: when a monster or a player receives a status effect, it/he can build temporary resistance to that specific status effect for a short period of time. This temporary resistance can increase if the same status effect is applied over and over.

    No application of stacks: when a status effect is applied at 10 stacks, there is a short period of time when no stacks of the same element, or all the elements could be applied on that target. This would solve the spam of status effects if a group of mages are focusing on the same target: stacks build up fast, but don't incapacitate the target continuously.

    Possible stacks rework or skill variation: Instead of applying the stacks on the target, they are applied on the mage as buffs. At 10 stacks of the same element, the next elemental attack of the same element, will apply the status effect as normal. After the attack that apply the status effect is done, the 10 stacks expire. In this way the mages would consider to keep switching elements but not make the 11th attack of the same element to keep the bonuses. Possible examples:

    Electric stacks: apply casting/movement speed bonus.

    Earth stacks: apply defensive bonus.

    Fire stacks: apply additional power bonus.

    Ice stacks: apply resistance to status effects or resistance to cast interruption.

    Personally I like this possibility that would allow the mage to keep bonuses even if he has to switch from different targets in a chaotic fight; and previously, if the mage switched target during the fight, it would mostly lose all the build-up benefits of the stacks on the previous target. This could fix the previous situation where multiple mages would apply continuous status effects on the target and possible balance.

    I like the concept of the elemental stacks on possible mechanics and playstyle, my only concern is the abuse of the skill.

    Regarding the elements in the environment, and the bonuses they can provide to the mage spells, would be cool if they can be personalized depending on the gear/build, or could change based on something else.

    For example: during the winter, when there is ice and snow, the ice spells have a little more power. But during an ice storm, the casting-speed decreases a little on top of the previous bonus.

    Basically the intensity of a specific element of the environment could interact on a scale of different bonuses with the magic spells.

    Circles around the damage/effect area of the skills and attacks - Those visual effects (like Guild Wars 2 skills) help to better read where the AoE of the damage or the effect is. Personally I would prefer a better visualization of the skills/spells with the effect instead of seeing weird circles and perimeters on the ground, that breaks immersion.
  • Vaknar wrote: »

    Dev Discussion - Let's Discuss the Mage
    • Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
    • Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion on the Boss Mechanics

    Mana management is important, without it you could just remove the mana. If there is spells that do not have a cooldown and can be cast back to back, maybe increase the mana cost of that spell after each cast in succession, use any other spell inbetween and the mana-cost increse resets.

    I think this way you dont get people that want to do the bare minimum and just spam 1 1 1 1 1 1 cus they'll run out of mana super fast. If you dont go this route maybe ahve something else that repels players on using said spell and ONLY that spell for the entire fight. *shrugs as I'm thinking about frost mage in Molten Core*

    I do like the idea of infinite sustain but I would not like it if it was easy to achieve. Don't want to be braindead and still have the ability to just spam away spells.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited May 2023
    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    The skill cooldown system shown in the preview is in my opinion unworkable and toxic to gameplay. Old games like Everquest were taking a D&D style and had spell cooldowns far longer then a combat would last so it was a matter of husbanding rare resources. League of Legends has a 2D top-down view and only 5 abilities that could be managed by muscle memory. And WoW had exceedingly static combat in which mages were rooted and casting on rotation.

    AoC is going to simply have too much going on between rapid movement in combat and during casting, the stacking of elemental effects on targets, and greater teamwork among classes to have the mage player staring at two dozen cooldown timers at the bottom of the screen. It's just information overload and you won't get a good flow of reactive tactical usage of spells. Your own previewer succumbed to this.

    My recommendation is to abandon spell cooldowns and instead use an independent casting time and 'back swing' time on each spell. A back swing is a period after completion in which you can't cast anything and might also have movement reduction. Some spells can have long cast times and short backswings, while others can be the reverse, like Blink which obviously needs some limitation on rapid repeat casting but makes little sense as a long cast time.

    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?

    Yes, mana management should exist for mages and every class for that matter. Fundamentally what the answer to mana regen for mages is, it should apply equally to other classes. If the Mage is going to rest after a fight the whole party should be doing so as well. I favor quick rests of a minute or two with usage of 'camping/utility' skills to not only raise back various bars to max but also apply some self-buffs which have an 'until next rest' duration.

    Note that a good mana regen system needs to be exponential in how fast it can recover mana based on what the player is doing. When casting there's no regeneration, when your character is walking regen is at minimum, say 1 point per second. Just standing still will double that to 2 per second, sitting doubles it to 4. Meditation which shuts down your ability to detect enemies doubles again to 8. Smoke on your pipe or eat some magic mushrooms and you can get another doubling for a period of time say 90 seconds, note that that's a double on top of whatever your movement is imparting, so eating on the run is way less effective than stopping. A Campfire doubles the duration of a consumable but from 90 to 180 seconds. So a full 180 second camping could net nearly 3K mana which should be enough to top up most players.
  • RockettRockett Member


    Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?

    Yes some spells should have cooldowns especially CC abilities, these should not be spammable. I think general damage spells should not have cooldowns on them and instead be gated by how much mana you have. I would make an argument for very powerful spells that other games would consider to be "ultimates" should have cooldowns on. I also think movement spells should have cooldowns on.


    Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?


    Yes mana management is important to me. Yes mana should contribute to a mages damage output over long encounters. No mages should not be required to leave combat in order to sustain mana, but I do think being out of combat should increase the rate your mana regenerates at.

    Mana should 100% be something to play close attention to, it should definitely get low and force you to regenerate it, but there should be multiple ways to get it back up during combat eg: absorbing it from an enemy through spells, drinking potions, other party members regenerating your mana through their own abilities/skills...



  • HeetCrusherHeetCrusher Member
    edited May 2023
    I like the mage showcase. Only thing I would change would be the ball lighting. I would get rid of the outer sphere. Just use a ball of lighting with sparks coming off it and when it reaches target explode with static field that you can see on ground and character with shock effect. Also lighting is fast n quick. It was so slow mo. Speed it up maybe 4 times. My 2 cents. Loved everything else bring on the Cyclops.
  • Well first of all to your first question you do not have to choose you can have spells that are back to back no global cool down and spells with cast time with cool down. Main Question is. IS it fun and engaging ?(kind of a catch all statement) but let me be real specific. Just so you know blind should be off global and instant so could be combined with other spells most defensive spells are off global cool down and interuppt every thing else. So Wall of force whould be instant as in being able to be cast in the midde of a spell that has a cast time. Also a lot of utility spell that effect the mage are instant like blink. But mages should have spells that have cast times one spell with cast time that can be cast while moving since this game does not have lots of abilities

    So rest should have a cast time.

    Now in wow there is a trap launcher very similar to league of legensds normal cast option. You press trap buttonlittle green circle shows up (actually a green circular glyph type circle so it does not break imersion) and then you left click to launch. Now if you wanted to make mages interested you could give the the player the option to have this type of cast with blink. No this may seem kind of cumbersome. But Hunter traps in WoW work the same way (2 button cast one to aim antoher to trigger ) and after many hours of play a player can do it so fast it is really close to instant.

    One of the problems with blink is that the distance is predetermined so this way player could choose were to blink to if he wants too. very usefull in pvp and even in pve like when you want to blink out of the ring of fire but not want to overshoot and blink into another ring of fire.

    Plus instead of blink maybe you out of call it dimensional warping were you warp time space to instantly travel between two places but sometimes you bring things back from those dimensions :) . As to what you might bring back small perks mostly and soemtimes things that are annoying but pretty sure The Deves could come up with something really creative. But for example sometimes you could bring back some type of minor magical creature from the viod or abyss or whatevery plane you want and it gives the mage some extra mana regen for the nest 20 seconds. This are the type if things that devs need to do in my opinion to makemages cool.

    As far os Mana well mages should have option as far their class is concerned to have a good amount of mana
    at the cost of a little dps. Most likely going to have mana potions so should have reason to take them. So it comes down to how often a mage has to take a mana potion or mana consumable. Plus if you use a consumable does that mean you cannot take a dps potion (intelligence potion; puts them on cool down)

    I mean how many mana potions does a mage have to take during a dungeon or drawn out fights and of course raids. Think if a mage is worried about mana killing mobs then well might be to much unless the tank is chain pulling.

    However mages should have the option tu use a lot of mana to kill mobs. In WoW mages had a really useful PvP spell called Spell Steal (you could steal a pallies wings which is a buff) But if you cast this spell twice you went through like 70 or 80 percent of yourmana so you could not spam. it So if they want to they should be allowed to cast some really useful spell ounce or twice but after wards loos some mana so guess have to take mana potion right after wards. By the way in WoW last time I played you could (in theory) only use one potion per pull/fight. So mage has to make a decision as to how they are going to play it. If lets say it is a short fight then well mage could opt to go right through his mana.

    I do not think like a mage sould be basically required to have like one hundred mana potions before doing a dungeon as far as raiding well depends on how long and difficult raid is. On the other hand of mana potiions are not used then basically makes item useless.

    Mages should have a a way to restore their mana like casting a mana strike that causes some damage that restores mana. I mean what happens if a mage is really low on mana do they just sit there and wait till mana potion comes off cd or has to run and get of combat so they can sit down and eat something that gives mana.

    These are things to consider. Might want to have two type of mana potions. Potions that restore mana and potions that increase man generation for really long drawn out fights. So you could have it so that for long raid fights mages use a potion that increases mana generation for like 3 or 5 min plus they get to use one mana potion during the fight like when high burst dps is needed. or might go with a dps potion that temporily increases intelligence. However thing Unique potions should be on their own cool down like potion fo Enlargement. But can only carry one or two or three unique potions. Actually already mentioned that in another post.

  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited May 2023
    I don't mind a mix of both. Having a big cooldown ability with small spell combos. If it must be one or the other I would probably choose back to back with no cooldown so that I don't have to look at the global cooldown and cooldowns as much. I do like just knowing without looking when I can use abilities. Eventually I do this with hours of muscle memory, so the easier to get to this point the better.

    Mana management could go either way. Without mana management mages can do similar damage to other classes with less difficulty. With mana management they have to do more damage in burst than other classes. I'm fine with either way, but no mana management is certainly easier to balance.
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  • CadrorCadror Member
    Not sure if anybody else mentioned this, but if mages can summon elementals, which lvl should a spell for combining them be set at?
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