You shouldn't be able to. Just because they aren't playing absolutely perfectly isn't important as long as they aren't dying and screwing the raid over. I also don't want it to influence Loot Privilege. You can also just watch people and see what they are doing. Often if you play the same class and they aren't doing what you do then you can just chat with them.
ok. well then ill assume you havent played top tier raiding i nany game, you literally have to play perfectly in most games to succeed at cutting edge progression, if you dont know what youre doing wrong on dps and what others are doing wrong you cant work out how to change your spec around and alter your own play. hell you cant even see your uptime XD. i understand why casual players dont like dps meters, they think it will afect their casual raiding but only people competing against others will care in non hardcore raiding.
hell if they made a dps meter only you can see it would fix the problem anyways, hardcore raiders would share with each other and be able to see all their stats and the casuals wouldnt have to share
Shouldn't assume someone is casual because they don't like a system. I actually don't like it because I'm not casual. I want everyone to have to go through what I do to find the most optimal way to play. Not just giving the answer for free because of Damage Meters. Damager Meters are an inherently casual system as well.
You also don't need optimal damage if the company actually balances the content. If you base it off WoW for instance. They have never balanced a Raid since Black Temple. They essentially released them without testing for the last like 6 expansions. It's pretty obvious too since a lot of them had very easy to spot glitches or huge stat disparities that should not have existed.
but the fact that there are these many threads just shows how important this topic is to many MMORPG players.
It's true that there are quite a few players who want some sort of DPS meter, the majority don't want it, and many also don't care about it. Twice as many people either don't want it or don't care about it than those who want it. Not an indiscriminate amount, but still a minority.
Cool, but now I sound so unreasonable with so many back to back reasons not to have them. xD
Still I Adamantly stand by because of all the downsides I saw in other games due to them. WoW's community got crippled by this system. It's important to know the statistics of what your character is doing, but you are going to do that on an individual level yourself anyway. It also fosters negative intent between leaders and players in a group because of lower numbers completely ignoring boss targets and such.
It's more important to reinforce positives than to have systems that encourage a system built on negatives.
WoW is the main reason I'm against it because this worked on older MMO's. However the foundation of what these MMO's are built upon are completely different. MMO's in the old days were built upon making friends and sticking with them no matter how much they might suck. Whereas WoW fostered a community where you abandon people who are bad to min/max your potential at winning because it is annoying to lose a week of resources.
In Everquest you didn't even know what spells did without looking at the dps meter. So it was built into the game requiring one. I just don't think they are important enough to outweigh their negatives. They lead the community towards a more toxic nature. Whereas without them things will remain more neutral. Plus blindly following dps meters without taking into account rng mechanics to distribute rewards is toxic in nature.
If you're someone who can't tell while in-game to see a DPS lacking then you've probably been reading the DPS meter wrong the whole time anyway. Just keep the dps meter out and too many scrubs become toxic over that chart.
2
mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm very happy this was moved into a mega thread. The real question what will happen in 30 minutes when a new user creates a new "DPS meter explained by me" thread.
My main reason for not wanting them is to slow down the meta so people outside the top tier players have a chance to experiment on their own before the "Best, must use or get kicked" build gets made and enforced.
I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍
As someone who has only been introduced to dps meters as an Add on on Guild Wars 2, I find it enjoyable, and useful.
On the other hand i completely understand the counter argument that a DPS meter can ruin the experience of slowly experiencing and discovering the game. a DPS meter arguably will also enforce a metric to be met on other players and ultimately leads to excluding players from different game content.
However, have you thought of settling for a compromise that probably will satisfy both parties, and possibly yourself as well.
I personally after reading through the various comments might not opt for a dps meter even if it was available, but I do suggest a DPS meter that allows players to monitor their own dps only. a dps meter as part of the user interface, one which you cannot copy/paste. This way, as I see it, players can share their DPS if they choose to with their guild mates and friends. But I highly doubt that would lead to players asking for a screenshot on discord to prove their eligibility.
Some argue that a dps meter will lead to a build meta which will make everything obsolete and take out the joy off of unusual builds. But the matter of the fact is that, that is inevitable. a DPS meter will only accelerate the fact and not cause it. It then remains in the hands of the players as to whether they would like as efficient as possible and opt out for the optimal gear & build, or try out unusual builds.
If you then find a way to implement a DPS meter that doesn't enable toxicity and player exclusion, whether it be taking the suggestion made above, or any other variant of it which you might come to, I think that would leave everyone happy.
A personal dps dummy to test your builds and rotations out is as far as it should go, or make it somekind of "personal arena" that are instanced where people can test tanking / healing and dps'ing...
Even combat logging shouldn't be allowed to be "extracted" in any way using 3rd party software to a 3rd party website/program to run sims should be a bannable offense honestly.
I find it rather comical we haven't had someone backing a DPS Meter since the merge...its too bad all of the original views weren't added together and displayed but I digress.
I'm fine with not having a DPS meter. However, I would like a recap when I die, detailing a little bit on what killed me (and by what/whom).
While I'm fine without a DPS meter, how would Devs be able to balance the game without them? Would they be actively monitoring combat behind the scenes, using tools only available to GMs and such? What if someone is using some kind of exploit and dealing massive amounts of damage, like 1-shotting people. Some kind of snapshot or death recap would be useful to report those kinds of things.
I think that might be the minimum I would ask for, some kind of death recap to combat potential abuse of exploits, and some kind of info to let me know how I just got owned
0
mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Don't worry guys you are going to love build crafting without dps meters. It'll be like diablo ii all over again.
as a fan of D2 that was a complement. I will say that the concept of creating something that i can't instantly pump out numbers is enjoyable. I get to know my skills better, think outside the box, and also adjust my rotations + gear based on lots of factors. In the original Guild Wars there was a 55 monk that pretty much described this. People use to look at my buddy and I like we were crazy for only having 55 health but we'd pvp and be awesome. kind of relevant but maybe not.
The devs still get to know the numbers. Also Diablo II is one of the best games of all time. Any game in the mmo or arpg genre that takes from it can only be better except with loot. Cuz getting the loot due to lag is stupid.
Comments
U.S. East
You also don't need optimal damage if the company actually balances the content. If you base it off WoW for instance. They have never balanced a Raid since Black Temple. They essentially released them without testing for the last like 6 expansions. It's pretty obvious too since a lot of them had very easy to spot glitches or huge stat disparities that should not have existed.
U.S. East
It's true that there are quite a few players who want some sort of DPS meter, the majority don't want it, and many also don't care about it. Twice as many people either don't want it or don't care about it than those who want it. Not an indiscriminate amount, but still a minority.
I'd call that a huge overestimation.
In your defense it is a very small sample size
Fixed.
Still support the OP's ability to overcome his crutch though.
U.S. East
All good
Still I Adamantly stand by because of all the downsides I saw in other games due to them. WoW's community got crippled by this system. It's important to know the statistics of what your character is doing, but you are going to do that on an individual level yourself anyway. It also fosters negative intent between leaders and players in a group because of lower numbers completely ignoring boss targets and such.
It's more important to reinforce positives than to have systems that encourage a system built on negatives.
WoW is the main reason I'm against it because this worked on older MMO's. However the foundation of what these MMO's are built upon are completely different. MMO's in the old days were built upon making friends and sticking with them no matter how much they might suck. Whereas WoW fostered a community where you abandon people who are bad to min/max your potential at winning because it is annoying to lose a week of resources.
In Everquest you didn't even know what spells did without looking at the dps meter. So it was built into the game requiring one. I just don't think they are important enough to outweigh their negatives. They lead the community towards a more toxic nature. Whereas without them things will remain more neutral. Plus blindly following dps meters without taking into account rng mechanics to distribute rewards is toxic in nature.
U.S. East
This is the culmination of two years worth of salt!
Can't wait
Other than that i don't really care much.
As someone who has only been introduced to dps meters as an Add on on Guild Wars 2, I find it enjoyable, and useful.
On the other hand i completely understand the counter argument that a DPS meter can ruin the experience of slowly experiencing and discovering the game. a DPS meter arguably will also enforce a metric to be met on other players and ultimately leads to excluding players from different game content.
However, have you thought of settling for a compromise that probably will satisfy both parties, and possibly yourself as well.
I personally after reading through the various comments might not opt for a dps meter even if it was available, but I do suggest a DPS meter that allows players to monitor their own dps only. a dps meter as part of the user interface, one which you cannot copy/paste. This way, as I see it, players can share their DPS if they choose to with their guild mates and friends. But I highly doubt that would lead to players asking for a screenshot on discord to prove their eligibility.
Some argue that a dps meter will lead to a build meta which will make everything obsolete and take out the joy off of unusual builds. But the matter of the fact is that, that is inevitable. a DPS meter will only accelerate the fact and not cause it. It then remains in the hands of the players as to whether they would like as efficient as possible and opt out for the optimal gear & build, or try out unusual builds.
If you then find a way to implement a DPS meter that doesn't enable toxicity and player exclusion, whether it be taking the suggestion made above, or any other variant of it which you might come to, I think that would leave everyone happy.
Even combat logging shouldn't be allowed to be "extracted" in any way using 3rd party software to a 3rd party website/program to run sims should be a bannable offense honestly.
That way it has no chance dropping to the second page and being missed.
I still don't advocate for DPS Meters.
In my opinion, DPS meters are a hard NO for the same reasons Steven has mentioned countless times.
I heard a bird ♫
U.S. East
While I'm fine without a DPS meter, how would Devs be able to balance the game without them? Would they be actively monitoring combat behind the scenes, using tools only available to GMs and such? What if someone is using some kind of exploit and dealing massive amounts of damage, like 1-shotting people. Some kind of snapshot or death recap would be useful to report those kinds of things.
I think that might be the minimum I would ask for, some kind of death recap to combat potential abuse of exploits, and some kind of info to let me know how I just got owned
as a fan of D2 that was a complement. I will say that the concept of creating something that i can't instantly pump out numbers is enjoyable. I get to know my skills better, think outside the box, and also adjust my rotations + gear based on lots of factors. In the original Guild Wars there was a 55 monk that pretty much described this. People use to look at my buddy and I like we were crazy for only having 55 health but we'd pvp and be awesome. kind of relevant but maybe not.
U.S. East