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📝 Dev Discussion #62 - Item Drops 💰
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Item Drops
What types of items and upgrades do you expect to drop from regular mobs? Do you feel good when regular mobs have a rare chance to drop powerful items?
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Comments
To add to my reasoning:
Unique Legendaries should only be level 50.
Legendary resources should only be level 50.
The difference is stark - everyone kills a boss and expects a reward. No one expects such a reward from general mob killing. It stands to reason that if a generic player can have a unique legendary, then a generic npc can have a unique legendary. Therefore, I see no reason why there shouldn't be a miniscule chance to receive the unique legendary from a generic npc. All is fair in love and war.
Furthermore, I agree with others who state that items should drop from appropriate mobs - so no animals with weapons for example.
All the best.
"Powerful items" should only drop from bosses.
I'd expect mobs to seldomly drop rare crafting materials, rare gear that may even have a unique cosmetic look or different coloration from an already-existing set of gear, or a big one that I really enjoy is crafting recipes. I love, love, love when mobs have a rare chance to drop a crafting recipe that can really make you unique when it comes to the market.
Rare drops from non-boss mobs can be a fun thing that will keep you into just farming mobs. It is important to let players feel some kind of progression.
Bosses can still drop completed items rarely based on their difficulty. Boss exclusive stuff is great as long as it is not the only progression path.
basic materials
basic loot drops (can sell or disasemble/scrap)
certain mob groups have a rare chance of dropping named gear like
named bandits dagger but very rare
dont make it world loot pool make it mob type specific
Heavily agree with this, minus the "legendary" requirement. Adding super-rare drops that are useful (note: not necessarily for that level, but not necessarily restricted to only high-level) drops to a large section (or all) mobs makes generic farming that much more fun, as well as these super rare pieces of loot that much more amazing when it drops. Farming something specific, killing a random mob otw to a gathering node, mining an iron node and getting Luminescent Ruby or something, and getting something that people who play 100x more than you haven't gotten is pretty fun. This also includes Unique Cosmetics, which I'll get into later.
My only problem with low-level unique legendaries is that they're only really useful in the first 2-4 weeks the game is out. The fact that you can get a level 15 legendary weapon, and someone with a level 25 green weapon might be better, makes that enjoyment very fleeting. And then the market will end up selling those weapons very cheaply, especially if the game doesn't lean towards gearing alts.
Now, if you can get unique legendary recipes that can scale the level of the item based on the resources you put in (i.e. Using 1 Legendary Resource would create a level 15 Legendary version of the item, but using 5+ Legendary resources would create the level 50 Legendary version of the item) then that would be interesting, and a way around low-level legendaries falling off so quickly once the general populace outlevels them.
If by mob-specific items you mean items that have traits/lines that are specifically related to that mob, then I would say those tend to be so niche that either they're useless (nothing good drops from that mob) or they're mandatory (if you want to farm this mob for something you have to buy/farm the mob-item first), and both scenarios aren't ideal IMO.
One thing I think is very important for the longevity of a game that has extensive open-world farming is a plethora of rare cosmetics, furniture, and other non-combat related drops from various mob areas. People joke about the true end-game being "fashion", but in reality, there's no better way to get people who aren't in the top 10% of PVPers/PVEers to constantly venture out in the world and farm mobs/gather resources than having a rare cosmetic/rare piece of furniture drop from a specific mob. You can have simple cosmetics like "Troll Chief's Hat" with a fairly high (2.5%) drop rate, but having something unanimously decided as "interesting" like the iridescent cloak from the Troll Chief that can be dyed several ways be a 0.05% drop will have transmoggers flocking for weeks.
Also, something I think BDO does really well is having utility drops be super-rare, and from various mob-types. The Infinite Potion, the Compass, the Map, all these things require several parts from several different mobs at a very low chance to farm, but once you get it, you now have possibly the same "combat ability" as others, but your overall enjoyment of the game has increased.
Adding rare cosmetics and rare utility drops to a wide level range of mobs can allow even a level 10 player to RNG something that a level 50 player has never seen in 3 months of playing. You can both make that level 10 player feel amazing and excited about something that won't be replaced in 5 levels, and make that level 50 player not have to farm level 10 mobs to get something and feel like they're wasting their time (because it can also drop from level 50 mobs). Note: Might be necessary to have a level-limit for drops if it becomes more gold-efficient for level 50s to farm level 10 mobs for the rare drop, but that rarely is ever the case.
Resources and glint, I believe don't fall under the same rarity/chance.
I'm not a big fan in a CRAFTING centric game, to reward the player with powerful items from drops. I do however LIKE rarity in cosmetics to be dropped in the open world. I believe motivation for completing dungeons, and killing monsters are the rewards of components to craft or purchase crafted equipment.
Common:
- Max Rarity - Heroic
- Drop Chance - <.05%
Elite:- Max Rarity - Heroic
- Drop Chance - <1%
Named:- Max Rarity - Epic
- Drop Chance - <1%
Mini-Boss:- Max Rarity - Legendary
- Drop Chance - <1%
Boss:- Max Rarity - Artifact
- Drop Chance - Intrepid Balance
Raid:Agree, totally random world loot feels a bit rubbish to me.
The occasional rare drop from a certain mob type definitely adds a bit of spice.
I enjoy farming materials that also give me a chance of something a bit special, either directly from the same mob/gatherable or just a "while I'm in the area" type of thing.
Named mobs should drop "rare" gear.
Bosses should drop "legendary" gear.
Materials.
Do you feel good when regular mobs have a rare chance to drop powerful items?
No..
-Craftable materials
-Junk to sell
-Glint
Special Mobs
-Same as normal
-rare gear or crafting materials
Bosses
- Mounts
- Legendaries
- Rare Items
Other Things:
- Biome or seasonal currency, materials, or items. Would be cool to have to kill based on these factors.
- Minigames: Things like a map that leads to extra crafting materials or triggers a mini quest to do x and get a chest.
- Mixture of time gated and RNG for rare items. I dislike how WOW handled the legendary axe in Season 3 of Dragonflight. Im okay with some people getting lucky and getting the item 1st try but I would also like to reward consistent players either via "pieces" of the weapon that can then be crafted or increased drop chance per kill. Or no "Lockout" in that you can kill on spawn to keep farming for a weapon.
- Personal Loot by default with a Guild loot option. I want the game to divy out the loot by default. I shouldn't have to worry about a guild or friends rolling on an item to give to their players. I do however see the value in guilds being able to change the loot system so they can hand out the loot as they see fit.
(Or if in the recent Live stream, the Alpha wolf head had to be cut off rather than just being a dropped item)
Drops should match the rarity/difficulty of the mob or have increased probability of tiers below it. So for example lets say you're fighting an Epic boss. That boss reliably drops epic materials, has a low chance of an epic completed item, and increased chances of dropping heroic and rare items. Complete usable items should not be easy to find like other games and only come from enemies that would be using or holding them like humanoids. Otherwise completed items could be found in containers like loot chests, weapon racks, backpacks, etc.
Monsters/Beasts= reliable source of mob specific materials
Humanoids = mob specific materials, currency, salvageable items, low drop rate completed items
Salvageable items can match what the enemy is wearing. So lets say it's a goblin warrior. It might drop a goblin scimitar and goblin armor that can both be salvaged for materials and then be used to craft gear. Whether you want that gear to be useable or not, up to you. Maybe as some low level common starter gear that has to be repaired or reforged with the appropriate stats.
Materials primarily.
But then from humanoids/similar; a more quirky selection of (mob appropriate) mats/items and occasionally gear.
Yes, as long as it's along the lines described above.
Some people seem to dislike global rare loot tables, but I think they're fine. My headcanon is that they're like lost artifacts, you never know where they might turn up. Bonus points if there's some story behind the item.
I find WoW's loot system engaging, but I do have some minor gripes with it. Grey/Junk/Vendor trash items are fine, but it would be better if everything had an actual use. Many mobs in WoW have loot tables containing common armor/weapons, but being common you essentially never use them and they turn into more vendor trash.
Make it so that players do not feel it as an incentive to kill 100000 mobs to get an item.
If that becomes a purpose then is bad.
That means there should be some events in the world which make these chances be 0% or not 0%, and players should know that if it happens sometime, it is because something else happened somewhere and chances are that it will not happen again. Maybe add a story, a note somewhere, so that players realize why that item dropped and why is out of their control even if on another server they would try to replicate the chain of events.
And do NOT announce such possibilities to bring players into the game during weekends or special celebrations of the year (Christmas, Halloween, Landing or Vera...). Such announcements feel bad.
Resources like body parts: bones, blood, horns, pelts, feathers...
From intelligent mobs maybe let them drop some
- ingredients to build cosmetics and alchemy stuff
- things which can be assembled into unique commodities in nearby nodes
I did love in EQ where among regular mobs there’d be a uniquely rare named mob that would have a chance to drop a something rare and specific. With current game systems, that rare specific thing could be a class item, or rarer crafting mat or something.
Your world is dynamic and should apply to loot as well.
Have mobs drop treasure hunt miniquests for a chance at great loot.. Like treasure trails minigame in Old school runescape.
Tldr; there should be more ways to get rare, unique loot from mobs other then kill x, but if a monster is quest locked or locked in any other way, it should be grindable. Have a rare loot table from generic mobs like mid-range or upper rannge materials from luckier drop rolls.
Perhaps, to ensure the economy isn't flooded with usable items, make the majority of drops broken to the point where only a small amount of material can be salvaged, but that's it, they can't be repaired.
Also, if a mob has an awesome item (magic weapon/shield/armour) they only use it (draw or equip it) once they are engaged in combat (to prevent people from only farming mobs wearing the sparkle party pants).
Do you feel good when regular mobs have a rare chance to drop powerful items?
Ofc, but appropriate for their level and from Elite mobs (group and dungeon content) with low drop chance. On top of that, I wouldn't want to, lets say a weapon, carry you for more than 7-10 levels even though its heroic quality. It should be rare drops too. Epics should start to appear around level 35 or 40lvl. Top quality items (Legendary and Artifacts.) should only drop at max level and still be extremely rare with maybe even quest chain attached to once you get them.
Another thing I feel like I should mention is that in WoW rare drops at low levels are usually blue or purple items with unique visuals. Their drop is extremely low and its usually farmed at high level for transmog. It incentivizes high levels returning to low level areas and maybe even helping new players along the way.
Low level mobs should drop low level mats for a low quality armor or its upgrade. I wouldn't expect low level mob to drop mats for lvl 50 armor upgrade.
In a perfect mmo, whatever mob is carrying on himself you would be able to loot it. Like for example, that goblin that carried jagged sword in a fighter showcase-You should be able to loot it. Maybe its poor quality, but it doesnt matter. Its a cool transmog. Ofc it would disappear from a mob once you loot it. Dont dont do that though, because that would require more development time.
.
major overall agreement that completed gear being dropped takes away from the games artisan system, there has been increasing concerns from seeing completed gear drops in multiple livestream showcases, there should be material drops only, and rare, rare recipes should ocasionally drop.
Recipes! Not completed Gear
gear should only come from starting questlines up to level 10~15 and introduce players to their first crafted set, from there players should need to either work together to craft, or trade for their gear, with a strong focus on upgrading along the way using the enchant system as well,
mobs should Not drop gear, now, if you want to have some mini bosses/bosses with rare chance of dropping completed gear, which is unfortunate, at least they SHOULD be low quality RNG stats mainly for deconstruction, absolutely no T5 items and no item should drop with a quality above rare/heroic.
No Legendary finished gear should drop from bosses. Only legendary mats and recipes.
all NPC and quest item drops including bosses should be non-repairable and only crafted gear should be repairable, this would make it so it is worth deconstructing and giving dropped gear a time-limit instead of being a viable long term gear option. But again, recipes should be the way.
Crafters make the best shit.
Gold
Glint
crafting materials
maybe....just maybe... something to hint at what the boss can contain material wise. Like maybe a common goblin will have a junk item called broken totem with a description leading to the player learning the goblin shaman bosses have intact totems that are actually rare and worth hunting.
Do you feel good when regular mobs have a rare chance to drop powerful items?
Personally I don't like the idea of super super rare materials dropping off common mobs after a while of thinking about it. Rare mobs require rare loot to be considered worth going after, or else its just "oh hey I killed that thing". If a common mob could drop legendary materials even at a lower rate, it will open up players just staying in a goblin camp for 4 hours in 8 man pull groups just attempting to get that one rare ingredient because it has a drop chance.
I like the idea of getting a quirky upgrade off mobs, and I want to see that they have broader application than "wear it or trade/sell it" as the options. I also really, REALLY want to see the crafting system be one that lets players work with crafters to get more curated gear for their build and goals, instead of just wearing the next highest item level gear that comes along regardless of its overall impact on the build. My criticism with the Carphin presentation was that they knew which mobs to kill for each piece of loot, that seems wholly antithetical to the idea of making the game dynamic. Unless the enemy visually has an enhanced piece of gear on and some boosted attributes to support it, they shouldn't be "the one to kill for a specific item" as we saw there. Beyond that, I would hope to see pieces of gear, too broken and weathered to use, but enough to help a crafter start piecing together a recipe to craft the gear using parts and methods available, which they can then learn to enhance and modify through deeper experimentation. In this way, there's a chance to get the gear, and the gear might fulfill your needs, but there's also an avenue to allow crafters to learn to make the gear and tailor it to your needs. I'd rather get 20 pieces of a breastplate for a talented crafter to learn from than to get a breastplate that may or may not fit my build.
If you aren't ready to get lost in the weeds of a more technical systems perspective, just stop reading after this paragraph. The tl;dr version is that the way you fight and kill mobs should be key to what they drop, so players with specific goals can fight a certain way in order to maximize their chances of getting rarer drops.
Instead of "does X enemy have Y if you kill it enough" which I consider an old-fashioned MMO convention--one that also let dataminers run amok on the economy of the game--I came up with a concept a decade ago for making drops a result of HOW you engage in combat with the enemy. Here's the doc: https://reesehollandgames.com/battle-based-looting/ This allows players to use tactics and technique to get what they need out of enemies or even prey animals. Instead of fighting enemies to get a certain item or body part intact by random chance, this document details with different ways to approach the task of defeating an opponent for certain resources. This also works to add difficulty modifiers, where the player may have to fight a creature in a way that is less optimal and doesn’t leverage enemy weaknesses in order to get the most pristine and intact version of material needed.
The parts of this that I feel are worth looping in are ways to try to control what drops you'll see off mobs. If I'm trying to obtain armor from humanoids, the method is using less physical-based attacks and more magic-based attacks, bleeds, venoms/poisons, etc, to try to kill the target without annihilating their worn armor along the way. Alternatively, if I am trying to use attacks that the armor wouldn't absorb as much, it can leave the armor more intact, such as heavy magic attacks on a heavy armor target and brutal melee on a cloth wearer, which I suppose means medium would be targeted best with bleeds, venoms and DoTs. If I want wood from a treant, I shouldn't use fire, but chopping with axes means I'm within range of being pummeled and impaled upon branches--a risk that's needed to get the product I seek.
Likewise it could be a factor of damage types, possibly based on their sequence or player positioning.
- Every stack counts as 1, every overload counts as 5, and the total sum of stacks and overloads from each different damage type is multiplied together and weighted against the loot table to see if it is in a range to give exceptional, standard, or poor drops, based on the total number of "tickets" the creature has relative to level/hp/defenses/tier to determine what range of drops they may get. To go further on this, some weaknesses or defenses of the target may mitigate the increase, where fire on a treant counts for 5x tickets while chopping weapons count as .1, which could allow for even a common treant to drop more exceptional rewards if it is killed optimally, or mostly ash (which may be useful!) if it is all fire and lightning used to kill it.
- Going the opposite route, it could be that using the synergy of stacks and overloads to kill the enemy quickly and with little resistance is the way to maximize drops. This could be enhanced by patterned usage, where overloads that promote into stuns and staggers put the target in a state where damage stops reducing the odds of seeing drops, and the overloads and DoTs applied during that period are granted a bonus to drop chances.
- Another route could be "crits break gear" which would give players an incentive to play less optimally in exchange for better odds of loot. Going with a no-crit build and leaning into raw base damage would be how players specialize for loot hunting, though I get the feeling that some archetypes are crit-heavy and will suffer disproportionately as a result. The inverse could be used as well then, instead it could be that "non-crits break gear" and that each crit reduces the overall damage to gear.
- Position could be another major feature, and affect certain areas more than others. With tab targeting being a major feature, I've ruled out hit location as a means of maximizing loot, but some concepts can still be used. Having a height advantage could lower the odds of helmets, skulls, teeth, and the sort, while ground-rising attacks may affect boots, claws, and roastable beast legs. Rear attacks may have better odds of getting loot overall, which means players using an aggro-grabbing tank and pummeling the enemy from behind may be a way that groups can try to get the best loot from a given target.
For players trying to maximize drops, I could even see "luck" being added as an attribute... it isn't common and you need a lot to make it help, but a player who wears gear that trades attributes and features for increased luck may also have an opportunity to get more goodies at the cost of combat prowess, and of course it is mitigated by every participant with less luck, so a solo player may be able to get better drops off things they can kill but in a group their luck may only go [1/group size] of the way towards improving drops on anything they kill--or % damage based but that leaves out group healers from the luck contributions.
---I feel silly, is overload the term used when stacks are promoted to a different effect? I feel like I heard that used before but that word has escaped me in the moment I wrote this, and I realize it may be odd to see an incorrect terms and have everyone saying "WTF is this guy talking about"
---I feel like I could say a lot more and go into even deeper examples but I'm fine waiting til A2 to see how it plays out before coming back with more feedback. A1 drops were few and far between, there was plenty from questing to keep players armed though.