Death Penalty... PVX>PVE?

“People say you don't know what you've got until it's gone. Truth is, you knew what you had, you just never thought you'd lose it.

I know it's probably too early to say without testing so bear with me but as a concept in my opinion the current solution is lacking.

my insight:

As I said, currently I feel like death is missing significance.
From what I understand so far, the punishment for dying is a partial lose of your currency and assets.
So basically the principle is just to make your purse suffer.

I suggest having a chance to drop item\s on death should apply as a standard to everyone and not only when corrupt.
Meaning dying to a corrupt player, you as a non-combatant also have a chance to drop an item.

As a balancing act you will be able to reduce the drop % or completely prevent it by buying an expensive or crafting a rare one time use item e.g. "amulet of losses".
All at the same time this preserves the current principle (by spending money\time for this item), grants additional control to your choices (by having applicable option for "being careful") and makes battles and duels more exciting by encouraging you to play better.
Maybe to keep it fair, while corrupt you could not equip\take advantage of such item (or could you?

)

Bottom line, Imagine how emotional attachment to a legendary item makes it truly legendary and adds a deeper sensation of meaning that goes along with the vision behind a game like Ashes. I find it essential.

*Addressing a possible concern, this will not apply during a siege or a war to not disrupt the balance and focus too much.

Also, how do you feel about having it the same way for PVE?
Imagine walking deep into a dark cave when you suddenly encounter a dragon sniffing the crispy corpse of a lone traveler, after slaying the beast you find out while looting his backpack he was clearly not prepared since he dropped his common boots when obviously you don't fight a dragon without a pair of legendary fire-walkers. Haha what a noob right?
From the other hand it also gives purpose to preparation by having you consider should you pull out from the stash your super rare legendary maximus prime armor for this epic challenging quest and risk it for the biscuit?
This kind of stuff make the difference for me.

Let's have a discussion shall we?

Edit:

ALRIGHT IM CONVINCED ABOUT PVP YOU CAREBEARS CHILL ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
Lets talk PvE now ok? Please.

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Comments

grisu

Discussed to death over the past 16 months for me, they aren't doing any kind of full loot aside from corrupted player potentionally dropping gear items.
They let you open pvp anyone to steal ressources. End of story for me.

I only skipped over your post, excuse me, but it is not just a baggage to your coin purse, your items will get damaged or potentionally destroyed on death depending on how much overkill is involved. If
you have stuff equiped that uses bossdrops or rare ressources you might quite literally not be able to repair it due to those ressources not being available anymore/ at this time. You can literally lose your gear at any time, just not to other players.

ilisfet

The discussed death penalty so far is negative experience, respawning at a set location, and dropping some of carried materials.

Negative experience works like lost experience, except it can't decrease levels. Kind of like an EXP debt.
Respawning at a set location may not sound like a penalty, but with no fast travel and a purportedly large world, this could set you back a half hour in travel or more if you were out in the frontier.
Gear is safe, consumables are presumably safe, it's materials that you gathered while out and about that are at risk.

All these death penalties are modified by the PvP flagging system. Being flagged as a combatant will (last we heard) half the death penalty, including negative experience and materials dropped. Being flagged as corrupted will increase these death penalties by a minimum of 3 times. The more corruption, the higher the multiplier. Higher corruption also brings with it the possibility to drop gear, equipped or otherwise. Corrupted players can also potentially respawn in a random location rather than a set respawn location.

PvE/PvP death does not affect the death penalties, only the flagging. Flagging is changed by engaging in PvP or entering a designated PvP area (though PvP can be done in all areas of Verra, some areas encourage it more than others).

ShadowCrept

As I’m sure ppl told u already anyone has a chance to drop resources in their inventory, but corrupted get a change to drop actual gear the more corrupted = more % chance

Potato Basket

Thanks for refreshing my memory but I think you're missing my point guys.

The place I'm coming from already took into account these things and the current way of how things will work.
All I'm saying is that to me it seems a bit boring and not that meaningful.

So I'll gain negative XP? Lose some resources? My gear will lose durability?
For me it's not harsh enough maybe because I assume it will be pretty easily gained back.

I guess I'm looking for something that will have a bigger effect emotionally rather than make me spend a little more time to gain it back pretty easily, I feel like it's kind of shallow and disconnected.

I don't know if you ever experienced a relationship with an item but once you're attached to something and you lose it, it makes you feel a certain way. (I know that sound so messed up 😂)
Of course you're mad about it but at the same time you enjoy the fact a game can touch you on such a deep level and you kinda appreciate it at the same time(?!)
Yep. Some of the most unique mixed feelings you can experience.

AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE?
C'mon bruh

OrcLuck

I think their loot system is fine.

I've played a full loot MMO, and all it meant was that the game was 70% grinding and 30% fun. I've also played full loot survival games and I don't find it all that enjoyable. I get that some people get off on it, but I find it tedious. If there were fewer factors in whom had the advantage like hardware and ping to the server maybe it could stand to be harsher, but in this day and age technology has not come far enough to make it fair enough for me to accept punishing defeats at the whim of other people's mood.

Jjampong

Zomnivore wrote: »

I think their loot system is fine.

I've played a full loot MMO, and all it meant was that the game was 70% grinding and 30% fun. I've also played full loot survival games and I don't find it all that enjoyable.

I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day, it's a game and it should be enjoyable.

Dropping items on death might be enjoyable for people who enjoy that type of realism in that game, or maybe some PvPers would prefer it. Although I don't shy away from PvP, I'm mainly interested in PvE and life skilling. I think a system like this would just annoy me and make me too careful.

Nagash

let this die

grisu

My gear will lose durability?
For me it's not harsh enough maybe because I assume it will be pretty easily gained back.

I guess I'm looking for something that will have a bigger effect emotionally rather than make me spend a little more time to gain it back pretty easily, I feel like it's kind of shallow and disconnected.

I literally said you can lose any gear worth some shit permanently, if you choose to ignore the state of information we have then there is no use talking to you.

Volgaire

tl;dr all of it but I will just say that currently the penalities are already hated by some people. If I was someone who didnt really like PVP then get penalised harshly becuase somebody is forcing their shit on me would be a game killer. Open world pvp ? great it's part of the game but getting punished hard for non-consensual pvp is a joke.

FulltimeWife

a system similar to this but with a white>pink>red>darkred name was used in a game called PWI. drops increasing from nothing> basic materials>gear>multiple gear items. you could soul bind a item but this would make it untradable. so as dark red griefer you would need to bind a full set. also doing pve cleared the red name back to white so there was a real nice balance between pking and pve. this worked great for over 9 years so i feel positive it will be no problem in ashes too

Potato Basket

Ok guys
Forget the PVP but what about PVE?

How soft and forgiving do you want this game to be?
Where is the challenge?
Where are the real consequences?

I guess we are complete opposites but I see your point, the only concern I have with it is that it will get dull real fast.
PVE focused approach won't last as long as PVP focused IMO. I'm talking long term.
I understand the game focuses on both and has great intensive for PVP within the node system, all I'm saying is I'm worried I'ts not enough. I want there to be a risk that will keep me on the edge at all times and not only during sieges and wars. something unpredictable with real consequence rather than slap on the wrist.

When the game is beaten and explored what's left? the focus will shift to PVP.

I guess a solution to keep everyone happy could be separate hardcore PVP servers?

nagash wrote: »

let this die

Are you pvping me rn?

Volgaire

ninfosho wrote: »

Ok guys
Forget the PVP but what about PVE?

How soft and forgiving do you want this game to be?
Where is the challenge?
Where are the real consequences?

I guess we are complete opposites but I see your point, the only concern I have with it is that it will get dull real fast.
PVE focused approach won't last as long as PVP focused IMO. I'm talking long term.
I understand the game focuses on both and has great intensive for PVP within the node system, all I'm saying is I'm worried I'ts not enough. I want there to be a risk that will keep me on the edge at all times and not only during sieges and wars. something unpredictable with real consequence rather than slap on the wrist.

When the game is beaten and explored what's left? the focus will shift to PVP.

I guess a solution to keep everyone happy could be separate hardcore PVP servers?

nagash wrote: »

let this die

Are you pvping me rn?

For the PVE we know there will be no leveling zones, so if you are farming some low lvl mobs in some forest and a monster with 10+ levels over you appears then though shit get some lube ready and prepare to be destroyed c:

I like your profile picture btw Tibia c:

Cambiguous

https://gfycat.com/waterloggedshortgoldenretriever

Rem_

I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game

WizardTim

Death Penalty in games are just inconveniences. Pointless ones at that.

Thing is, you die, you lose. Simple enough penalty that applies to every situation, and works well enough to drive up adrenaline in any healthy human. If you need more, well, pitohui. There is already a good bit of inconvenience involved in death, having to respawn and run back to where you were.

However, I've seen people quit games because they died a few times and racked up "a ton" of exp debt. Each person has their own tolerance levels when it comes to death penalties, and if you want to meet MOST tolerance levels, you do away with the penalty all together aside from whatever inconveniences are already there (like having to respawn).

A critical death penalty doesn't actually improve the game play. It doesn't make things more "intense", you do. You jack it up yourself by exaggerating how horrible it is and how much you don't want to die, and then you die because inevitable and it just hurts that much more.

I've never needed a severe penalty to death to simply not want to die in the game. And I've often enjoyed the rush of barely surviving certain situations. In fact the biggest reason I've seen for wanting a severe death penalty is griefing. When death means little to nothing, it's less aggravating for the people we kill, and that makes our killing them less meaningful. I'm not seeing a downside to that.

Potato Basket

Pokosaurous wrote: »

I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game

Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

WizardTim

ninfosho wrote: »

Pokosaurous wrote: »

I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game

Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

Absolutely.

The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

Potato Basket

wolfwood82 wrote: »

ninfosho wrote: »

Pokosaurous wrote: »

I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game

Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

Absolutely.

The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

WizardTim

ninfosho wrote: »

Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say it's the latter.

You have to understand every system in the game influences the player base, not just you as a player.

If you were of a d* bag mindset, and wanted to torment other players for gigglesnorts, the simple fact that every time you killed them caused some level of inconvenience is enough incentive to kill anyone weaker than you. The corruption system may actually *encourage* this behavior, because some players would want that extra challenge and incentive to avoid death *and* enjoy pissing people off.

Add to it the knowledge that your victim may have lost some item? Fap fap fap...

Game theory is all about trying to predict the typical response to a scenario. It doesn't really mean *all* players exposed to the same scenario will follow the same path. Some people get their jollies from being d* bags, others from helping people. Some people want extreme death penalties for adrenaline, others are fine without those penalties.

The corruption system seems more focused on giving *certain* players what they want, while discouraging less inclined players from falling into that crowd. It may reduce the griefing, but it won't eliminate it.

ilisfet

Since the main point of contention is lost items, I can say my opinion on the matter is it's an unpleasant idea to me. Lost progress is a natural penalty for failing, but significant lost progress is debilitating in more ways than one: it incentivises overly cautious play to minimize risk. That lost item may be worthless, or it could be priceless. It could be a unique legendary or rotten food. One won't be missed but the other is months of effort and pride. I can say from personal experience playing overly cautious isn't fun. The thrill of courting death is what makes combat and traversal fun, but if the perceived loss is larger than the perceived gain, a player won't bother with the fun content. Constantly using second-hand items, fighting weak enemies, looping the same rut, avoiding player contact, it's all dull and safe.

Risking significant progress isn't inherently bad, but it needs to be understood what that risk brings to the experience -- what kind of play that encourages, and whether that is the intended experience the developers want to convey. Losing an item on death will increase the tension players feel, perhaps to the point of always looking over one's shoulder, but is that the kind of experience Intrepid's aiming for?

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