Why so restrictive Artisan system?

We do not know much about upcoming Artisan system, but most parts what devs have planned sounds quite good. Dividing artisan classes to three main category (gathering, processing, crafting) makes sense and it is actually quite standard system. Devs have also promised somehow complex system with recipes and stuff, and I personally hope it will focus more on quality than quantity.

I am still personally concerned behalf myself and others who loves lifeskills and professions in MMORPGs. Devs have stated, that a player can only master one artisan path, not the main category, but one individual branch like mining for example. That is a huge downside to those MMORPG players who focus on lifeskills and want to use a lot of time doing different kind of stuff related to professions. Current planned system will exclude a lot of artisan content from players.

I have seen the argument, that this restriction goals to interdependence between players. I guess devs have not thought, that this kind of restrction is not actually needed. If we think of sandbox games for example. Those usually have a total free progression system and you can focus on everything you want to without the game needs to restrict you. And guess what? The player-driven economy still works great. IS fears that people will be totally self-sufficient. That fear is vain. Of course some people tries to be, but even they can not get every ingredients they want by themself. BUT, most people will still focus on just one or few things and they will interact and trade with each other. So there is no need for so restrictive actions.

I am not asking, that we should have totally free choise to master all paths, but some kind of middle-road solution here would be more than welcome. That would show, that you to care more about those players who loves to do different kind of lifeskills and not just narrow their main content to something so small. Many players likes to gather and craft from example, so why to take that possibility away from them?

I guess this system can be go around with alts (at least a little bit), but why to force people to do so? Is there some kind of hidden agenda behind this? Lastly, I hope you still reconsider how you are going to build the artisan system, and you really think it also from player point of view. Thank you.

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Comments

Nagash

I think the idea was more Master of one and good at some

Amist

You can be a jack of all traits, but master of none or purely be a master or very good at a profession. I personally think it makes a lot of sense

sivanna

I haven't kept up with news and my memory of the topic is pretty sketchy. I wouldn't mind if we earn points (?) for our crafting tree and at a certain level/number the amount needed to gain a new point (or whatever method they use) goes up exponentially. Putting a soft cap for most players, but those that LOVE gathering and crafting can keep going. So the path you choose will still matter. Sort of like in WoW: Legion the artifact weapons or BDO's leveling system. As long as they really can keep botters under control...

Devorandom

I agree that it will certainly limit the scope of what a person can do with a crafting profession. But on the other hand it will make every Crafters specialization a truly special thing. How much depth there will be in each specialization path is yet to be seen. But if they make each specialization in each craft have a lot of variety then I think you won't have a lack of goals to work towards.

grisu

It is a confusing topic and I would wish they showed an example tree so we have a way of falling back to actual facts not wording.
The way I u nderstood it is that in the process of mastering one profession you pick up basic skills of other professions.
To illustrate what I mean, when you learn your way to gathering plants, you learn about the ecosystem, you learn about trees and wood, you learn about the wildlife.
You will be a master plant expert and can get the best of the best from plants, but you also know how to skin animals and fell trees. You might not make the best plywood on the server, but it will be useable.

That is my understanding through examples given over the years.

Zackallic

I think the system makes alot of sense and as a player that masters a skill. You stand out and are a important player. People come to find you because maybe masters of your skill are to far and few.
Some games when you can do and be everything it kills the community a little. People are no longer communicating to each other to work together when you can simply do everything yourself.

Zackallic

Sivanna wrote: »

I haven't kept up with news and my memory of the topic is pretty sketchy. I wouldn't mind if we earn points (?) for our crafting tree and at a certain level/number the amount needed to gain a new point (or whatever method they use) goes up exponentially. Putting a soft cap for most players, but those that LOVE gathering and crafting can keep going. So the path you choose will still matter. Sort of like in WoW: Legion the artifact weapons or BDO's leveling system. As long as they really can keep botters under control...

Going pay to play helps some. As long as they dont do things like wow where you can spend in game gold for membership.

Its just a level 1 security door but normally makes a difference. Im the same though about bots. It kills game. Look at Runescape. It used to be a major player community game. Then the bots came in and almost no one talks anymore.

Volgaire

I love the idea that we can only master 1 artisan class, mastering something is not easy and should be rewarding, in Ashes without master crafters you can say goodbye to the best gear in the game compared to other games where crafting becomes redundant at high levels this is a great solution for players to pursue crafting and feel a sense of satisfaction from doing so.

Personally I see it this way, either you dedicate yourself to master 1 single craft or you can become good at a few but master none, the more classes you learn the bigger the limit on item quality you can create. Something like this:

1 Crafting class - Grandmaster level
2 Crafting classes - Master x1 and Advanced on others. No grandmaster.

Ferryman

Zackallic wrote: »

I think the system makes alot of sense and as a player that masters a skill. You stand out and are a important player. People come to find you because maybe masters of your skill are to far and few.
Some games when you can do and be everything it kills the community a little. People are no longer communicating to each other to work together when you can simply do everything yourself.

People are still communicating and trading goods with each other even they have access to several artisan paths. The system as whole just needs to be done way, that progression is not a faceroll and it needs some effort.

I do not want anything like WoW has (which btw has at least that 2 path options), I would like to see more freedom like in sandbox games. If AoC categorizes itself as a sandpark or a themebox, that does not show on artisan system like this.

Current plans are great news for players to whom lifeskills are more like sideactivity. But those who really wants to focus on different lifeskills, this is really bad news.

TheCouchNerd

I like that they limit you to either master one or become decent at many. This way it encourages community interaction by making new friends but also force you to make a name of yourself.

Devorandom

Ferryman wrote: »

Zackallic wrote: »

I think the system makes alot of sense and as a player that masters a skill. You stand out and are a important player. People come to find you because maybe masters of your skill are to far and few.
Some games when you can do and be everything it kills the community a little. People are no longer communicating to each other to work together when you can simply do everything yourself.

People are still communicating and trading goods with each other even they have access to several artisan paths. The system as whole just needs to be done way, that progression is not a faceroll and it needs some effort.

I do not want anything like WoW has (which btw has at least that 2 path options), I would like to see more freedom like in sandbox games. If AoC categorizes itself as a sandpark or a themebox, that does not show on artisan system like this.

Current plans are great news for players to whom lifeskills are more like sideactivity. But those who really wants to focus on different lifeskills, this is really bad news.

Not necessarily. Depending on the depth and bredth of each path you very well could be spending a long time mastering sword smithing or enchanting. We don't know all the variables that will go into the outcome of a single item, so that specialization isn't necessarily as limiting as you might think.

Ferryman

TheCouchNerd wrote: »

I like that they limit you to either master one or become decent at many. This way it encourages community interaction by making new friends but also force you to make a name of yourself.

You can make a name of yourself without this restriction.

Ferryman

devorandom wrote: »

Ferryman wrote: »

Zackallic wrote: »

I think the system makes alot of sense and as a player that masters a skill. You stand out and are a important player. People come to find you because maybe masters of your skill are to far and few.
Some games when you can do and be everything it kills the community a little. People are no longer communicating to each other to work together when you can simply do everything yourself.

People are still communicating and trading goods with each other even they have access to several artisan paths. The system as whole just needs to be done way, that progression is not a faceroll and it needs some effort.

I do not want anything like WoW has (which btw has at least that 2 path options), I would like to see more freedom like in sandbox games. If AoC categorizes itself as a sandpark or a themebox, that does not show on artisan system like this.

Current plans are great news for players to whom lifeskills are more like sideactivity. But those who really wants to focus on different lifeskills, this is really bad news.

Not necessarily. Depending on the depth and bredth of each path you very well could be spending a long time mastering sword smithing or enchanting. We don't know all the variables that will go into the outcome of a single item, so that specialization isn't necessarily as limiting as you might think.

Specialization has nothing to do with this. Even I would focus on weaponsmithing (inclueding all melee weapons), thats way too narrow system. I still want to gather and process those resources what I need for crafting (at least some of those).

Devorandom

@Ferryman You will be able to do that for the low level stuff. But the purpose of this system is to introduce scarcity for certain crafting skill sets so that people will have to rely on each other for the big stuff. I'm not really sure how much you want to be able to do on your own.

Both harvesting and processing are supposed to have similar depth to the crafting itself so if you could do most of the gathering and processing yourself that would defeat the purpose of the system.

TheCouchNerd

Ferryman wrote: »

TheCouchNerd wrote: »

I like that they limit you to either master one or become decent at many. This way it encourages community interaction by making new friends but also force you to make a name of yourself.

You can make a name of yourself without this restriction.

If everyone can do everything most will just max the professions they need then do everything themselves. I can agree with the gathering part though, but I see why they did it the way they did. Now you're forced to find a miner to supply you with the stuff, and it encourages trade and communication. If they let you be a miner you'd just go out and mine it yourself, prospect it, then craft the item, it just makes the community much smaller. It also makes a bit more sense that you can only master one.

Azathoth

I love this part. It falls back to risk and reward. You might not be a master arms maker, so if you make the local Smith mad you might have to travel far to find another of the same level of skill.

On the other hand, a master Smith that charges way to much might stop getting goods imported and lose a supply chain.

I hope this works quite well and does encourage community as has been suggested.

Ferryman

devorandom wrote: »

@Ferryman You will be able to do that for the low level stuff. But the purpose of this system is to introduce scarcity for certain crafting skill sets so that people will have to rely on each other for the big stuff. I'm not really sure how much you want to be able to do on your own.

Both harvesting and processing are supposed to have similar depth to the crafting itself so if you could do most of the gathering and processing yourself that would defeat the purpose of the system.

No one gives a s**t about low level stuff tbh. I hope people won't bring that up anymore. ;-)

Like I have said before, even some people are focusing more on artisans paths, that does not stop people to trade with each other. Most players are still choosing none, one or few paths, so people still needs to rely on each other. Those who have played sandbox games with player-driven economies knows this is true. But it seams we have here more themepark people who have not experienced that by themselfs.

Ferryman

TheCouchNerd wrote: »

Ferryman wrote: »

TheCouchNerd wrote: »

I like that they limit you to either master one or become decent at many. This way it encourages community interaction by making new friends but also force you to make a name of yourself.

You can make a name of yourself without this restriction.

If everyone can do everything most will just max the professions they need then do everything themselves.

Omg.. Do you really think that all people will automatically be self-sufficient if they have that chance? No they won't. Some will be, those who focus mainly on lifeskills. People value they playtime differently and we will have players who uses 0% to any artisans skills and those who uses 100%. Then we have every possible variations between those extremes. People will still trade and economy will be fine. It works in other games, why it would not work in Ashes?

Devorandom

@Ferryman Theme park MMOs like WoW still have a player driven economy and people still don't rely on each other much. Also low level stuff does matter because Steven made it a point to say that people will spend a long time before they reach max level. No one is saying that people won't trade with each other if people can go down artisan paths, but there will be less of a need overall to interact with people, and that seems to be counter to what intrepid wants. Its a matter of preference in the end really.

Ferryman

azathoth wrote: »

I love this part. It falls back to risk and reward. You might not be a master arms maker, so if you make the local Smith mad you might have to travel far to find another of the same level of skill.

Risk versus reward..

Quite weird scenario example imho.

[quote="azathoth;c-189466"On the other hand, a master Smith that charges way to much might stop getting goods imported and lose a supply chain.[/quote]

Okay this supply chain problem is another thing and it might become a huge issue with current system. Gathering is always solid income or at least you can make profit with it everytime. Processing and crafting are more risky business, because you need to buy the resources and make your product from those. I have seen how gathered resources can be more valueable than what you can get after processing those or using those processed materials to craft an item. In WoW for example this does not matter so much, because there is no player-driven economy, but in Albion Online this was a problem. In Albion you still had the chance to get some resources by yourself and make some profit with crafted goods, but I can see how this can come issue in AoC where you just need to stop and maybe even drop your artisan skill. I am very courious to see how devs manages to balance this.

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