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Rushing to End Game....Is it a problem?
sojourn85
Member, Founder, Kickstarter
EDIT: This post isn't directed solely to Ashes of Creation. It's more of a generalized discussion on games as a whole.
Good evening all! I wanted to get the communities opinion on the topic of Rushing to End Game.
For as long as I can remember I have, the last 10 years at a minimum, started a game with friends and rushed towards the "end game." Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV: ARR/Heavensward, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 2, Destiny 2, Anthem, and most recently The Elder Scrolls Online. All of these games were great games, and I looked forward to their release. My issue is that aside from being fun, I didn't pay much attention to the story or lore unless it was a main story mission that caught my attention. The Mass Effect and Dragon Age series are well known for great story, and when I played those, I took my time to enjoy them and understand what I was partaking in.
So my question to all of you is this; Do you have the same issue? And if you do is it a problem with us, the game, or the idea that the game is only fun at the "end game?" So much time and effort goes into making great stories and lore for these games, but I find myself just clicking through the dialog to finish the quest and move on to the next thing.
I'm hoping that I can not do that with Ashes and enjoy the world they are creating for us.
Thanks for your time!
Good evening all! I wanted to get the communities opinion on the topic of Rushing to End Game.
For as long as I can remember I have, the last 10 years at a minimum, started a game with friends and rushed towards the "end game." Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV: ARR/Heavensward, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 2, Destiny 2, Anthem, and most recently The Elder Scrolls Online. All of these games were great games, and I looked forward to their release. My issue is that aside from being fun, I didn't pay much attention to the story or lore unless it was a main story mission that caught my attention. The Mass Effect and Dragon Age series are well known for great story, and when I played those, I took my time to enjoy them and understand what I was partaking in.
So my question to all of you is this; Do you have the same issue? And if you do is it a problem with us, the game, or the idea that the game is only fun at the "end game?" So much time and effort goes into making great stories and lore for these games, but I find myself just clicking through the dialog to finish the quest and move on to the next thing.
I'm hoping that I can not do that with Ashes and enjoy the world they are creating for us.
Thanks for your time!
Gamer, Husband, Father, and Hard Working Individual. Let's have fun!
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#stoptheendgameBS
But since the end game only appears as the world is developed, you are going to be rushing out of the gate and fall flat on your face in about 9 seconds.
No nodes? No Dungeons
No Nodes? No Crafting
No nodes? No Raids
First nodes = first dungeons
Nodes upgrade = Dungeon Bosses and their mechanics change
That said, if you have it then no need doesn't equal unimportant and I think that rush that developed over the last 15 years or so is just a reflection of the attitude developers take to leveling. It's a fucking time sink, nothing more, filled with the absolut minimum to even count as content. The last years especially are an absolut dumpster fire to that metholodgy.
Imo, especially for an MMO the leveling journey is the first step to come to love the game. If it's just an afterthought then by the time that I get to "endgame" I'm already looking at the game way more critical.
The leveling introduces me to the world and it's quirks. If it's just generic bull then why would the rest be any better?
I doubt I ever invested any time in reading wow's quest in classic or burning crusade, but the way they introduced me to the world, the magic, it's inhabitants, the ecosystem. It all made sense, it all felt like it had a reason it existed the way it did. It was still a time sink, no questions asked, but it was an enjoyable timesink in which you constantly learned new things.
So yeah I understand why people rush through, but I wish it wasn't so.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
The Node system gives me hope, but I was also speaking generally about games as a whole. Aside from AoC, what are your thoughts on rushing to end game?
If you want to do that, then go for it. It is ultimately your decision.
That's true. but I was hoping to get insight other than it's your decision. Do you think it's game design, poor story, or is it purely the person making the choice to skip all the content? A perfect example from me is yesterday my uncle and I were leveling in ESO. We're both beginners, and out of habit I just skip through quest dialog and go where I need to, etc. My uncle was like, "Can we take our time and actually read what we are doing?" It's not that I don't want to, it's just become a habit to rush through things because I've been conditioned/brainwashed into thinking the end game is where the fun is.
I would prefer slow progression even as a casual. My only real problem with end game 'rushers' is they are usually the first ones that make noise about needing new content.
Kinda like China's warring states or pre three kingdoms period. You fight whoever to make yourself bigger and when someone gets too big, you bring them down a notch. Rinse and repeat. Just a global scale slugfest is the end game in Ashes. Unless i'm wrong of course, then feel free to correct me
I haven't played an MMO myself, Ashes will be my first.
Looking at it from an outside view, I feel like rushing to end game is terrible. Most likely the rush is because early and mid game are terrible..? If that's so, when new players join they'll be instantly turned off the by terrible and old things offered. By being turned off, they won't even be able to see the end game anyway.
I feel like a game should definitely be more then just the end, obviously people will get to max level or whatever it is in MMOs (I think they have a cap? but I've seen ones without caps)
The early and mid game should be important, not stale bland, old and untouched. First impressions are a LOT. I tried WoW one single time, and loaded in to having to just click on some boars or something and watch my guy just automatically hit them. It felt mind numbingly boring, both because the combat was tab-targeting and because I did nothing at all, just clicked some quest accepted and clicked onto the enemy.
So... I feel like rushing to end game is absolutely terrible for a game! ^-^
why rush... sit back and enjoy the story. You'll get to end game soon enough.
If the point of the game is something like WoW where the game is literally an endless cycle of get to end level, clear hardest dungeons, farm best gear, wash, rinse, repeat, then yes you have designed a system where people are going to race to end game.
If the point of the game is like Archeage where supposedly there is good PvP to be had at the end game, then people of course want the best PvP so they rush to get the best gear and the highest level.
Unless your game has good entertainment value, then no people aren't going to take their time getting there. Personally I think FFXIV and SW:TOR have done the "entertainment" piece very well. I've never felt rushed to get to end game.
In a game will full cut scenes, I take my time getting through them. Yes, I'd prefer to have other people who want to watch the cut scenes as well, because I enjoy seeing them. IF people want to be in a rush, well they can wait.
Formerly T-Elf
Once a character stops being able to progress and grow, it's hard for me to be enthusiastic about playing that character. Gear means nothing to me, clearing dungeons never really gave me a thrill. I have more fun in random PUGs leveling than I do in messy complicated raids that some group slapped together out of desperation.
I don't necessarily take my time, because I enjoy the story content and want to grow as a player and as a character, but at the same time I don't like hitting max level and being bored whenever I log into that character and feel like I have to do chores in the form of dailies. PvP is a potential thing to do but even that gets old and feels cheap when the DEVs have to offer up a carrot in the form of gear and trinkets just to keep me interested.
It is okay to rush of course, but it wont be the same when you go through it all with your alt.
My first level playthrough is always slow and i go to EVERY corner of the world, find treasure chests, do all the side quests, make notes on how to level more efficiently etc.
Then I have all the information if i want to boost through the zones, get every treasure chest, know what quests give the most exp and how long each quest will take, I know the ways to the questzones (especially in AoC where we most likely will not have any quest markers like in wow) ;D
I say you find your end game and go for it, whatever it may be.
My end game will be exploration. However, that won't mean the game ends for me it just means I need to find another goal and reach it.
As for the subject of rushing, if that's how you want to play then, by all means, do so.
Yeah we definitely don't want that.
Why artificially impact how fast a player reaches max level? If someone wants to devote 20hrs a day to bum rush content, then more power to them. It's not the way I'd play, but I'd be salty if i had my play style dictated by them, so why is it okay for me to dictate their's?
If someone wants to rush to the endgame then let them. I don' think it is a problem at all just like it is not a problem for those who want to take their time or for those who want to role play.
For MMOs I feel that a gaming company should plan to fill the needs of a wider audience though and expect a plethora of play styles. "Endgame" content is important as well as the in between.
As you can see, that alone, without going in many of the details or really explaining the characters is over 40 minutes long. It doesn't help that the way WoW leveling currently is makes the storyline impossible for a new player to follow as the story is out of order and a lot of the main storypoints are contained in the older raids, which most players will never do while leveling.
FF14 has similar problems. I'm currently working my way through the level 1-50 main story and honestly I'm struggling to keep up with it. There is so much to keep track of that it's hard to differentiate between what is actually important and what is filler. The result is I'm getting burned out by reading so much quest text that I've started skipping over most of it. In a way it's a relief because it means I don't get so bogged down in needless filler, but at the same time there is a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I have missed a key element of the story by skipping over so much of the quest text.
The good thing about Ashes is that, unlike WoW, FF14 and ESO, it isn't based on an existing franchise so new players coming in aren't going to have to catch up on the lore. This will make the story-telling a lot easier to follow.
If IS intends for Ashes to be a more story-driven leveling experience, I hope they will look to GW2 for inspiration. In my opinion it has by far the best leveling experience of any mmorpg I have played, mostly because of how the story is delivered. The story is delivered in easily digestible chunks that are forcibly separated by periods of open world exploring. For anyone who hasn't played it, basically what happens is that every 10 levels you unlock a new chapter in the main story (a story that is personalised for your character based on what race you chose, among other things when you set up your character). These story chapters will generally only give you about 1-2 levels of exp and at the end of the chapter the NPCs will basically say "well done for your good deeds, go now and relax/train to become stronger and we will call you when the time comes".
This is great because it gives players who like to explore the chance to do so without worrying about missing out on the story, and the story itself has very little filler content, staying focused on what is important to your character.
That said, I do think there are ways to make quest text more appealing or necessary.
E.g.
- don't provide mini-map quest markers and directions; these make text obsolete
- put hints in text that lead players to secret/more advanced content (quests, crafting, resources, explain game mechanics, etc.)
I agree with the sentiment of getting players to work a bit harder for their quest objectives rather than just putting quest markers on the minimap. However, there are problems with putting too much emphasis on quest text such as language barriers for non-native speakers. If you've ever played an Asian mmorpg that hasn't yet been translated into English you will understand how debilitating it can be, and how important the markers are.