Please don't make the Cleric class just heal/support bots

gabriel1987

A current issue I've always had with previous mmorpgs or just regular rpg's in the past.. is that almost always, they always design the cleric with just healing and support/buff spells. I would like it if Intrepid chose a different approach and designed the Cleric with also damage/debuff spells(skills).

I don't think this would overpower the class if you limit the damage to a certain degree where it won't out dps the main classes designed to deal damage, mages and rogues etc. But my only concern at the moment is if you add debuffs in addition to damage it might make Clerics a necessity in a team composition. Would love to hear the playerbase thoughts on this idea.

Here are just a few ideas for skills(spells) that you could give a Cleric to make it more than just a heal support bot:

Holy Bolt - deals (x) amount of damage each lv. Also adds light up effect for enemy for (x) amount of seconds. Allies that attack "lighted up" enemies have increased in accuracy or increase crit chance.

Guardians of Light - create an aura -or- create a circle of guardians(could be anything your creative team can come up with to horses, angels, or statues of some kind) for (x) amount of seconds. Any enemy creature that enters the circle is dealt (x) amount of damage while it enters the aura and while it remains in the aura it is dealt (x) amount of damage per second.

Searing Light - a beam of light shoots from your hands and deals (x) amount of damage and causing a "blind" status effect. When blinded enemy has a chance to miss physical attack % based on level. Either keep it to just physical attacks or magic attacks up to you.

Holy Weapon - gives (x) % increase in physical damage to ally or yourself for (x) amount of seconds per level.

Divine Flame - your basic ranged magic attack dealing (x) amount of damage and causing a debuff to enemies attack power or magic power for (x) amount of seconds.

These are just a few examples, you can change the names or the number percentages to which you find appropriate. Not only would this make Clerics fun to play by giving the option to either be a damage/debuffer or healing/buffer or a mix of both depending on which subclass they choose. It would make Clerics ideal in a team composition, and would probably make them a higher target. Thanks for reading my post.

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Comments

Wandering Mist

These are the current list of cleric skills. As you can see, most of them involve both healing and damaging at the same time.

Noaani

Personally, I fully expect some of the Cleric sub-classes to be almost pure healer.

The game needs pure healers, simply because there players out there that really enjoy that type of game play.

My assumption (and it is just an assumption) is that the cleric/cleric class will be that pure healer. They will be able to deal enough damage to be able to solo along slowly, but will have enough heals and buffs that are more useful to their group that they won't bother with that small amount of damage in most group situations.

However, I also assume that the cleric/mage and cleric/rogue (and others) will be healer hybrid classes.

Still going with my assumption here, but I expect to see only pure healers among groups of people that are pushing hard content for their gear and level. I expect most players that are not pushing in this manner will likely opt to be more of a healer hybrid.

Jahlon

Clerics are the primary healer, that is the "role" you are taking on when you pick your primary Archetype.

Tank - Tank
Healer - Cleric
Support - Bard
Damage Dealers - Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Mage
Jack of All Trades - Summoner

Your Primary archetype determines what job/role you will be doing in parties.
Your Secondary Archetype forms your class and determines how you will be doing your job/role

Damokles

There are some more spells that we know of for Clerics:

Banish:
Rank 1 - Teleport Target a distance away from the caster.
Rank 2 - Decrease Hate from those enemies and increase the distance. If the caster is the targets target, the target will clear.
Rank 3 - Snare two enemies that are banished. Port them away and then they are slowed.

Life Bolt:
Rank 1 - Deal Damage to enemy based on the casters missing health.
Rank 2 - Adds an Area of Effect.
Rank 3 - Slow enemies hit by the blast.

Endow Life:
Rank 1 - Resurrect Target if they are dead. Prevents death if they are alive. Resurrected players dont return to 100% Health and mana.
Rank 2 - Increases duration of death prevention buff.
Rank 3 - Resurrects Target with 100% Health and mana.

Mana Well:
Rank 1 - Gain x mana per pulse. X must be either percentage based or based on weapon damage.
Rank 2 - Bonus Health per Pulse.
Rank 3 - Allies in the well get a physical and magical defensive buff.

Soul Paralysis:
Rank 1 - Channel a lock down of a single target. Both you and the enemy are held in place.
Rank 2 - Increased resistance to being disabled.
Rank 3 - Caster takes reduced damage while channeling.

Proximity Chain Stun:
Rank 1 - Chains enemies to a center point. If enemies leave proximity of the point, the chain breaks and they are stunned. Chain is only applied when the spell is cast.
Rank 2 - Enemies that are chaines take extra damage from all incoming sources.
Rank 3 - Allies in range when chain is cast gain extra health from heals.

The Cleric sounds like a CC master and healer in my opinion, which doesnt mean that they cant be played as a damage variant, but lets be serious. Clerics will always be good at healing, tanks will always be good at tanking: no matter the subclass. The only thing that will change is the way HOW that is done.
A rogue wont suddenly be able to be a main healer if he chose the cleric as secondary and a mage wont be able to be the main tank for a group if he chose the tank as secondary. The rogue will most likely deal health based damage or buff his allies with hots through his attacks, and the mage will turn into a defensive support with earth magic or something most likely.

Spell list for cleric: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cleric

burnthefern

damokles wrote: »

A rogue wont suddenly be able to be a main healer if he chose the cleric as secondary and a mage wont be able to be the main tank for a group if he chose the tank as secondary. The rogue will most likely deal health based damage or buff his allies with hots through his attacks, and the mage will turn into a defensive support with earth magic

At the risk of reviving a long dead topic, I don't believe that's how it will work. If I remember correctly, the augments won't allow you to do the job of the other roles. So Cleric secondaries won't have any group or ally healing at all, just self healing. So a Tank secondary Mage will probably just gain defensive bonuses to themselves, not defensive bonuses to support their team.

Noaani

jahlon wrote: »

Clerics are the primary healer, that is the "role" you are taking on when you pick your primary Archetype.

Tank - Tank
Healer - Cleric
Support - Bard
Damage Dealers - Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Mage
Jack of All Trades - Summoner

Your Primary archetype determines what job/role you will be doing in parties.
Your Secondary Archetype forms your class and determines how you will be doing your job/role

Again, this is just my own expectations, but still...

If all a secondary class does is affect *how* your primary class does their job without functionally changing things up, then we may as well all just pick a class and a color. If all clerics are functionally the same, then I personally see no reason to go beyond "Green Healer", "Red Healer" and "Blue Healer". If there isn't a functional difference between the classes, then just change the name of each spell and the color of the particle effects each class generates and call it a day.

Again, this is just my expectations.

We know secondary classes determine *how* we will do our primary role. This isn't up for debate. However, to me, how a class does what it does can also change the *function* of how it does what it does.

As an example, a cleric/rogue is still a healer, but the mechanics of how it heals could easily make it a hybrid DPS. It is perfectly conceivable that this class could heal via dealing damage from the shadows to enemies, and then a portion of that damage goes to a marked ally. Suddenly, that healer is now a hybrid - they need to do some DPS in order to heal. They are still a healer primarily, but their choice of secondary class has changed the way they heal to the point where they need to deal damage in order to heal.

Honestly, if the difference between a cleric/cleric and a cleric/ranger is that the former casts a heal spell for 100HP while the latter fires a healing arrow for 100HP, then I'll go back to playing single player games.

Jahlon

noaani wrote: »

jahlon wrote: »

Clerics are the primary healer, that is the "role" you are taking on when you pick your primary Archetype.

Tank - Tank
Healer - Cleric
Support - Bard
Damage Dealers - Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Mage
Jack of All Trades - Summoner

Your Primary archetype determines what job/role you will be doing in parties.
Your Secondary Archetype forms your class and determines how you will be doing your job/role

Again, this is just my own expectations, but still...

If all a secondary class does is affect *how* your primary class does their job, then we may as well all just pick a class and a color. If all clerics are functionally the same, then I personally see no reason to go beyond "Green Healer", "Red Healer" and "Blue Healer". If there isn't a functional difference between the classes, then just change the name of each spell and the color of the particle effects each class generates and call it a day.

Again, this is just my expectations.

We know secondary classes determine *how* we will do our primary role. This isn't up for debate. However, to me, how a class does what it does can also change "what" it does.

As an example, a cleric/rogue is still a healer, but the mechanics of how it heals could easily make it a hybrid DPS. It is perfectly conceivable that this class could heal via deal damage from the shadows to enemies, and then a portion of that damage goes to a marked ally. Suddenly, that healer is now a hybrid - they need to do some DPS in order to heal. They are still a healer primarily, but their choice of secondary class has changed the way they heal to the point where they need to deal damage in order to heal.

Honestly, if the difference between a cleric/cleric and a cleric/ranger is that the former casts a heal spell for 100HP while the latter fires a healing arrow for 100HP, then I'll go back to playing single player games.

I think you need to go and read up on the Augment system.

Noaani

jahlon wrote: »

I think you need to go and read up on the Augment system.

Augments to primary skills will fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary class.

Fundamentally change. As in, change the foundation of.

My example above is - to me - exactly what that *could* mean. The primary skill is a heal, the identity of the secondary class, the rogue, is that of hiding in the shadows and being all stabby-stabby. Add the identity of the rogue to the primary skill of a heal and *I* get what I described above as one possibility.

I'd be interested to hear what your opinion of adding the identity of a rogue to the primary skill of a heal could be as a possible augment.

Atama

I love what WoW eventually did with Discipline Priests. You have damage-dealing spells that heal party members. You put a spell on an enemy that everyone that hits the enemy gets healed. It’s not about just sitting back and keeping health bars up, you’re in the thick of it with everyone else. It’s your presence that heals. No healbot behavior. It was the most fun healing I’ve ever done in a game.

Clerics in Neverwinter Online were much the same (and I believe did it much earlier than the WoW changes). There is precedent.

Jahlon

From an interview I did with Steven:

Q: A lot of healers are wondering if they're gonna see a shadow priest flavor or a cholromancer from rift flavor where you're gonna be able to do your healing by doing damage?

A: (Steven) I think that actually it safest be you know vampiric spells that create damage and as a result of that damage give some type of life steal and those will be spread out amongst a few classes

Amist

Whereas it seems there are going to be a lot of different flavors to the cleric, it is considered the healing class of the roster. If you are looking for something more versatile and different, I would probably go for a bard.

Noaani

jahlon wrote: »

From an interview I did with Steven:

Q: A lot of healers are wondering if they're gonna see a shadow priest flavor or a cholromancer from rift flavor where you're gonna be able to do your healing by doing damage?

A: (Steven) I think that actually it safest be you know vampiric spells that create damage and as a result of that damage give some type of life steal and those will be spread out amongst a few classes

This is exactly the kind of mechanic I was talking about above, only instead of it being done with a spell, my example was with a sneak attack as that is more roguelike.

Etho

Another concern about clerics is the mana efficiency/scarcity trap- in many games it makes little sense for the class to do anything else in combat that uses mana, other than heal. I have played clerics in EQ 1, EQ 2, Vanguard, etc. because i enjoy healing and keeping my friends alive - but when the class is reduced to only activating a few heal skills either through lack of skill choice or through simple mana math, ugh.

Key to the cleric is to have skills that do not use mana - such as decent melee attacks, perhaps with longer cooldowns, the melee skills could also build mana/focus through the melee damage delivered to further encourage non-healing combat activities. If non-dps skills are preferred, melee based stuns also suit the class as a defensive skill. But clerics badly need meaningful activity that does not use mana.

Etho

from one of the posts above, Staff Combo would seem to be one melee, non-mana skill that could have merit during combat. I also saw a single skill listed for one or two other weapon types. So that's an example of the direction needed, but if it provides only one melee or non-mana combat skill it doesn't really add much to the cleric non-mana-based activity level.

again, in a group, clerics will simply not match the mana efficiency of either their own heals or the efficiency of dps classes in spells that deal damage - nor should they. So the other lists of cleric dps spells look great in isolation but likely NEED to pale in comparison to dps classes. thus the need for cleric melee based skills, and more than one...

Songcaller

I'm hoping Mana drain is reduced slightly by live game. I think it drained too fast in the preview we saw. I know the GMs were level 10 and the others were lower level. If a fight is of long duration (I hope the Raids are longer duration) then a better process of resource use/gain/reservation will be required. It will be interesting to see if Bards can boost Mana Regen. It could seem so dire now because we haven't seen all of the classes.

I love how the Cleric looks so far and can't wait to try it. If Mana is restored by the Whip (It seemed to be in the preview we saw) then I can live with it, but if the Cleric alone can replenish Mana in such a manner then I foresee problems arriving. Yet, Clerics won't be a solo heal class (I don't mind requiring other healers for Raids) so in such circumstances a group of Clerics might be able to sustain a Raid Group in prolonged fights at max level.

Edit: Mana Wells will be useful, especially when more than one Cleric is in a Raid Group. Getting a real urge to play now lol

VKhat

Jahlon wrote: »

Clerics are the primary healer, that is the "role" you are taking on when you pick your primary Archetype.

Tank - Tank
Healer - Cleric
Support - Bard
Damage Dealers - Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Mage
Jack of All Trades - Summoner

Your Primary archetype determines what job/role you will be doing in parties.
Your Secondary Archetype forms your class and determines how you will be doing your job/role

From what I've read, Bards can enhance their abilities for DPS, Healing, and Tanking. If anything I'd say Jack of All as it sounds like you need to be wary of your position as a Bard, while Summoners use summons to aid the team, having their summons get the aggro.

Tank - Tank
Healer - Cleric
Jack of All Trades - Bard
Damage Dealers - Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Mage,
Support - Summoner

Nagash

A one year necro. Nice

Songcaller

Nagash wrote: »

A one year necro. Nice

Saw Cleric in the title and couldn't resist, much like you and Necros lol

Nagash

Neurath wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

A one year necro. Nice

Saw Cleric in the title and couldn't resist, much like you and Necros lol

Im just happy people use old threads instead of making new ones. ^^

yakoyakdiddy

I am hoping this will be similar to the class system from Guild Wars 1 (one of my favourite implementations in any MMO). The secondary class allowed an enormous amount of customisation, in conjunction with the vast array of skills. I mained as a monk (think priest/ cleric, not the martial monk from other MMOs), and there was a whole branch of damage dealing known as Smiting. Of course, depending on the secondary class, you could come up with all sorts of interesting damage templates. As a light armour class, you were still always going to be squishy, but hey, I dig light armour.

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