Grouping

Well I already posted most of what I have to say on Grouping in referencet od Dev Discussion Number three

I could add that at low level dungeouns they should not be just speed runs or dps runs but have real simple game mechanics like a lever that brings down draw bridge or key that open doors. Just really simple things that prepare new players for raid machanics and show them how some times they will have to interact with environment. This prepares them for more complex raids.

But what this post is really about is if you are reading this pls try to come up with some ideas to make grouping more enjoyable with out making people feel like they have to be in a group. I can tell by the post that you are some really smart people so if you just take like 5 to 10 to think aobut. Did not see too many posts on the actual Dev Discussion.
Reason I am posting this is grouping is so important in MMOs basically what and MMORPG is so we need all the help we can get to get those hermits out of their shells.

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neuroguy

consultant wrote: »

pls try to come up with some ideas to make grouping more enjoyable with out making people feel like they have to be in a group.

I find this to be unclear. What about groups is not enjoyable that you want ideas on improving? Also would benefit from some specificity, do you mean the process of finding groups? Looting rules? Class synergies/dependencies?

syl

So you want to make grouping more enjoyable, but at the same time don't want people to feel like they have to be in a group (a.k.a. grouping)?

Grouping will most of the time bring many advantages. If you were to make grouping more enjoyable, you'd make people want to join groups. However, you then get to a point where grouping becomes a necessity, which could be detrimental to solo play. You would then buff the solo experience, but then grouping would be less enjoyable and people will be once again drawn to play solo.
You will keep having this cycle.

I don't think there should be something changed about grouping. At the very least, you could make some content only doable by grouping, like raids. 'Normal' content should still be able to be played solo. That content can then be played more enjoyably in a group.

They'd need to find the silver lining between enjoyable solo experiences and enjoyable group experiences.

Tl;dr My own opinion would be to leave grouping as is. People will find their ideal bunch of people (guilds help here too) to group up. I don't think LFG will help here.

Wandering Mist

I find it ironic that you say that grouping should be more fun and then at the same time say that low level dungeons shouldn't be just speed runs. Those 2 statements contradict one-another if you enjoy doing speed runs. This is where communication comes in, and why automated group finders doesn't work. When you set up your group you need to make it clear what kind of run it's going to be. If you want to do a speed run then you need to find other people who want to do a speed run. If you want to take it easy and explore everything then make sure everyone in your group knows that.

At the end of the day, the level of enjoyment you get from group content comes down to who you group with. I've run the same dungeons multiple times and had vastly different experiences, purely from who I was grouped with.

With that said, the dungeons themselves need to be designed to teach players from an early level what is expected from end-game raids (within reason). This is something that a lot of mmorpgs fail to do. For example, anyone who has played FFXIV probably knows of the hellhole that is The Aurum Vale. This is a dungeon that is available at level 47, so relatively late into the levelling process, and it is known as the group killer.

The dungeon isn't especially hard for veteran players but what makes it a group killer is that it takes everything you've learned about dungeon runs and throws it out the window. For starters, up until this point the mobs in dungeons were spaced far enough apart that the tank could body-pull packs of mobs without fear. However, in Aurum Vale the mobs are much closer together and there are patrols as well, so body-pulling is going to pull an entire room and get the group wiped.

The second main difference is in one of the bosses, which is the only boss up to now that has no ground indicators for their big attacks, forcing you to learn the ability names and dodge them without help. These 2 changes are very sudden and they completely change how you have to approach the content.

This in my opinion is very bad design and it's no wonder that newer players avoid this dungeon like the plague.

Jahlon

Dungeons won't be speed runs because they are open world, and when its open world you never know what's going to happen.

Your dungeon geared for levels 20-25 suddenly has a level 50 in there killing people.

ArgentDawn

jahlon wrote: »

Dungeons won't be speed runs because they are open world, and when its open world you never know what's going to happen.

Your dungeon geared for levels 20-25 suddenly has a level 50 in there killing people.

This.... This is what I'm hoping to see. That's what open world games are... That's what a living world is. Group play and solo play should both be entertaining and there is nothing suggesting that it won't be in ashes. Mages being able to reveal paths, trackers watching for footsteps, clerical being able to clear a blight from a dungeon.... This is all utility meant to help solo and group play.

If the game is remotely like what is promised we are in for a fantastic surprise when ashes launches.

danjohnson3141

Does anyone else feel a bit of anxiety when joining a group? I sometimes feel like I'm locked in to playing for a while once I get in a group.

I was probably going to play for a while anyway but now I'm obligated. I guess it's kind of like playing a table top game.

Dygz

I don't like feeling locked into formal groups - which is why I rarely join groups.
I wouldn't say I feel anxiety about it though.
I prefer to fight alongside groups rather than mechanically join a party or raid.

@consultant
I care more about the story than I do about the mechanics.
I want the motivations for us to participate in dungeons and raids and caravans and sieges and wars to be meaningful - besides just learning how to use our abilities so we can get loot.

I want us to be motivated to learn how to use our abilities because the horde will destroy or delevel our villages if we don't successfully defend against them.

I really couldn't care less about "grouping".
We can't defend against a monster horde alone.
We can't siege or defend a Node alone.
We will at least need to fight alongside others, even if we don't join an 8-player party or 40-player raid.

Dygz

jahlon wrote: »

Dungeons won't be speed runs because they are open world, and when its open world you never know what's going to happen.

Your dungeon geared for levels 20-25 suddenly has a level 50 in there killing people.

Right. And, as I pointed out in another thread, Steven says those encounters will change from session to session. Making it difficult to speed run when the content is not the same as it was during the first run.

Wandering Mist

danjohnson3141 wrote: »

Does anyone else feel a bit of anxiety when joining a group? I sometimes feel like I'm locked in to playing for a while once I get in a group.

I was probably going to play for a while anyway but now I'm obligated. I guess it's kind of like playing a table top game.

I definitely do, and doing just a single dungeon run exhausts me, even if it goes 100% smoothly.

consultant

wanderingmist wrote: »

danjohnson3141 wrote: »

Does anyone else feel a bit of anxiety when joining a group? I sometimes feel like I'm locked in to playing for a while once I get in a group.

I was probably going to play for a while anyway but now I'm obligated. I guess it's kind of like playing a table top game.

I definitely do, and doing just a single dungeon run exhausts me, even if it goes 100% smoothly.

Well you can say at the start have to leave in 45 min or an hour if you do not leave no one really notices.

And if you want to leave. Five minutes before you have to leave just anounce it gives them time to find stopping point or find someone else.

consultant

neuroguy wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

pls try to come up with some ideas to make grouping more enjoyable with out making people feel like they have to be in a group.

I find this to be unclear. What about groups is not enjoyable that you want ideas on improving? Also would benefit from some specificity, do you mean the process of finding groups? Looting rules? Class synergies/dependencies?

Well it is not the materail in this case if it was it would be a real easy topic. It is about people that kind do the single online experience. So it is about peoples minds.

One idea I was thinking about today is well if two people are on a quest they should have the option to have a visible (icon) or some other graphical interface that noticeable to another person if that person has the same feature on to look for people on same quest.. Some people may contrue this too much hand holding. But you would still have to say hello and ask if they want to do the quest together and send the invite

Another Idea I was thinking featuring dungeouns for a time period. week two weeks months. For example this dungeound has increased drop rated or more loot or slightly harder or they just have one dungeoun featured all the time that has its loot table changed to the featured loot table. (Not making big long post about game mechanics cause well I do not even know what the game mechanics are now)

What this will do is bring people together to do that dungeoun as a group. So even if they have already done that content willing to do it again for loot table that is specific to featured dungeouns. Point is if we use our minds collectively we might come up with great ideas. Saw the dev descussion on it not to much feed back I think.

Wandering Mist

consultant wrote: »

Another Idea I was thinking featuring dungeouns for a time period. week two weeks months. For example this dungeound has increased drop rated or more loot or slightly harder or they just have one dungeoun featured all the time that has its loot table changed to the featured loot table. (Not making big long post about game mechanics cause well I do not even know what the game mechanics are now)

This kind of thing is usually only necessary when a particular dungeon is proving very unpopular, either due to tuning issues or bugs/broken mechanics. Obviously I'd prefer the devs fix such issues rather than encouraging players to run broken dungeons just for the added rewards.

Karthos

I would hope we wouldn't condone or support this kind of behavior. Not only is it harassment, but you should never touch another person without permission.

I remember my HR training about proper workplace etiquette. They explicitly said you should not be groping other people.

neuroguy

consultant wrote: »

Another Idea I was thinking featuring dungeouns for a time period. week two weeks months. For example this dungeound has increased drop rated or more loot or slightly harder or they just have one dungeoun featured all the time that has its loot table changed to the featured loot table. (Not making big long post about game mechanics cause well I do not even know what the game mechanics are now)

What this will do is bring people together to do that dungeoun as a group. So even if they have already done that content willing to do it again for loot table that is specific to featured dungeouns. Point is if we use our minds collectively we might come up with great ideas. Saw the dev descussion on it not to much feed back I think.

I don't like this idea because dungeons are not static in the game (some will be available while others will not at any given time) and without fast travel, people may feel penalized or forced to travel long distances if this bonus loot dungeon is far away.

I don't really understand why you need all these systems though, they already have the taverns. Just go to one to group up with other people? If you are worried about the density of players in any single tavern, there could be some "tavern chat" you are opted into when you enter any tavern. Personally I like the idea of going to taverns and there being a bulletin board where you just slap on your name and some multiple choice options of: looking for group for "questing, dungeons, pvp" or w.e. So if anybody goes to a tavern and it's empty they can look at the bulletin board of players that were nearby (close physical proximity) and had visited the tavern and try whispering them to see if they are online/still interested.

consultant wrote: »

One idea I was thinking about today is well if two people are on a quest they should have the option to have a visible (icon) or some other graphical interface that noticeable to another person if that person has the same feature on to look for people on same quest.. Some people may contrue this too much hand holding. But you would still have to say hello and ask if they want to do the quest together and send the invite

In general though, if you see another player in the world, you can just chat with them? You don't need an overly complicated solution. This feels like the whole phobia people have of making phone calls instead of text msgs haha. Just communicate and you'll know if the person you see out in the world wants to party with you or not. After a bit of playing I'm sure you'll find a group/people with similar interests, you'll have a growing friends list, a guild etc.

consultant

Well this is not so much of and idea more of a problem. If you were to look at demographics in game you would see that some people just do not group. And just do the single online experience. Players can get o max level basically by themsleves and then expect to do the most difficult content.

Now in vanilla wow this was something called world buffs So before a raid guess what. 40 man Onyxia raid. had to do Dire Mual then had to ge a ZG heart buff and then Song of Flower Buff. And then and if some one did come along and debuff you cause guilds were competative those days then you were ready to raid.

They make jokes about fire resistant gear but hey if you wanted to that dungeound guess what you had to form a group and farm that gear. In the Vanilla WoW grouping was a necessity. If you were look at the progessions raiding chart you would be amazed.

Current WoW now is Single online experience for most part to max level que for some content. Then lots of people try to raid and well they do not know how to do that cause been dong single online experience.

So if we could find some to overcome PHOBIAs even if it construed as hand holding for new players and casual players whch. If you are a hardcore player well you did not get that way over night.

So if Ashes of Creation had a system that was like you have to do this before you do that (oversimplification just to save wall space) and make a necessity to group that would be great. But think they already have that coverd from the looks of things and they way the described raiding. So I did not post on that initially.

But anything we could so that really easy to implement would be a great help and make very strong cummunity.

Wandering Mist

consultant wrote: »

Well this is not so much of and idea more of a problem. If you were to look at demographics in game you would see that some people just do not group. And just do the single online experience. Players can get o max level basically by themsleves and then expect to do the most difficult content.

Now in vanilla wow this was something called world buffs So before a raid guess what. 40 man Onyxia raid. had to do Dire Mual then had to ge a ZG heart buff and then Song of Flower Buff. And then and if some one did come along and debuff you cause guilds were competative those days then you were ready to raid.

They make jokes about fire resistant gear but hey if you wanted to that dungeound guess what you had to form a group and farm that gear. In the Vanilla WoW grouping was a necessity. If you were look at the progessions raiding chart you would be amazed.

Current WoW now is Single online experience for most part to max level que for some content. Then lots of people try to raid and well they do not know how to do that cause been dong single online experience.

So if we could find some to overcome PHOBIAs even if it construed as hand holding for new players and casual players whch. If you are a hardcore player well you did not get that way over night.

So if Ashes of Creation had a system that was like you have to do this before you do that (oversimplification just to save wall space) and make a necessity to group that would be great. But think they already have that coverd from the looks of things and they way the described raiding. So I did not post on that initially.

But anything we could so that really easy to implement would be a great help and make very strong cummunity.

I can only speak for myself here but there are times when I want to play an mmorpg but don't want to do fixed group content. Sometimes I just want to go exploring or questing on my own without worrying about whether I'm meeting other people's expectations or holding them up. As with a lot of things, group content should be an option in my opinion, particularly during the levelling process. One of the reasons why I stopped playing FFXIV is because of the mandatory dungeons during the levelling. And I'm not talking about side quests here. When you hit a point in the main story that requires you to do a dungeon, you cannot progress along the main story until you complete that dungeon with a group.

For someone like me who played a DPS class during off-peak times, this meant I was sitting in queues for up to an hour before getting into a group to do those dungeons. That's an hour of sitting there doing fuck-all because literally the only thing that interested me in that game was progressing the story as quickly as possible in order to reach the newer content.

That is what happens when game developers try to force group content onto people, and it is FUCKING STUPID. If Intrepid pull a stunt like that I will immediately uninstall and unsub because I am not wasting my time on that bullshit.

consultant

Yes there has to be a balance Ashes of Creation team looks really smart. Extemely smart. For example really
impressed with Steves answer on how the servers mergers are going to be used to keep server populations healthy. Playing on dead server vs full server is like night day experience as far as mmos are conerned.

So I am really excited about this game. If persay the Ashes of Creation game is not perfect and has some issues not even really worried about cause this guys are smart enough to fix it.

Steve thinks like a gamer. Will not find that in any MMO nowdays. We are lucky he decided to make this game.

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