Will pvp and pve be balanced differently?

All MMOs that offer both PVE and PVP suffer from balancing problems. The reason for this is that if you tune a class/spec to be competitve in PVE it usually breaks something in PVP. This is becuase classes have different tools that work differently in PVE and PVP.

PVP and PVE is so different that a simple 5% damage increase to a class to make it more balanced in PVE may break the whole game in pvp.

There are a few ways to solve this. There needs to be seperate balancing for PVP when it comes to abiltiies or stats. The most effective way historicly is to have different specializations, auguments, runes etc for PVE and PVP. Sometimes even spells that are unique to PVP.

An example of the balancing problem can be taken from WOW again. Mages in WOW can specialize in three ways, frost, fire and arcane. Arcena focused on single target dps, fire on AOE dps and frost on control. Frost had great utility and control but lacked in pure dps. Still, thanks to their control, utility and survivabilty they were amazing in PVP. When blizzard decided to buff the frost mage damage to be almost on par with fire/arcane the frost mage got completly broken.

Blizzard solved this 10 years later by making many of the utility and survivability abilities PVP only. They also had special ways to deal damage that only really worked in PVE.

How will AoC tackle this problem? How would you like it to be? Personaly I want AoC to have PVP ability augumentations that are seperated from other normal ones. These auguments will not work in PVE. In this way, PVP and PVE can live in harmony. Otherwise, it never will.

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Azathoth

If PvP players can't keep up with PvE players, then they should stick to other PvP players.

Ashes is not going to separate abilities or equipment between the two.

Players in general, all players, will likely have to play Ashes different than other games they have played. That Will be a good thing.

Of course all of this is an opinion.

Marzzo

azathoth wrote: »

If PvP players can't keep up with PvE players, then they should stick to other PvP players.

Ashes is not going to separate abilities or equipment between the two.

Players in general, all players, will likely have to play Ashes different than other games they have played. That Will be a good thing.

Of course all of this is an opinion.

I see what you mean but this can be the other way around. What if a class needs to be insanely buffed to be able to compete in pve, thus making it broken in pve affect us. This issue is important since at least 30% of Ashes wants to play PVP. The unending cat and mouse of balancing PVE and PVP is dangerous for the health of the game. Killing classes and specs will be the norm.

Azryil

No PvP and PvE will not be balanced separately, as these two game mode are intertwined. There will be no separation of gear between PvE and PvP.

Marzzo

arzosah wrote: »

No PvP and PvE will not be balanced separately, as these two game mode are intertwined. There will be no separation of gear between PvE and PvP.

I suppose AoC will never be balanced then. Could you give me one isngle reason why seperate balancing is bad? Also, do you have any sources?

Azathoth

Well, if any class needs an insane amount of buffs to be effective in PvE then IS failed. So whatever occurs because of that has bigger implications than PvP vs PvE. The same argument can be said for classes in PvP.

If your numbers are correct, balancing the game so 30% of the players have separate mechanics (abilities, gear, skills, whatever) so they can more effectively attack the other 70% of the players seems cheap.

Why should there be separate mechanics so PvP players are more effective at PvP against PvE players.

This thread has occured a few times, the results are always the same. Both sides just disagree.

Luckily it is a mute point since Ashes won't have separate thinga for PvP and PvE as mentioned above.

Marzzo

azathoth wrote: »

Well, if any class needs an insane amount of buffs to be effective in PvE then IS failed. So whatever occurs because of that has bigger implications than PvP vs PvE. The same argument can be said for classes in PvP.

If your numbers are correct, balancing the game so 30% of the players have separate mechanics (abilities, gear, skills, whatever) so they can more effectively attack the other 70% of the players seems cheap.

Why should there be separate mechanics so PvP players are more effective at PvP against PvE players.

This thread has occured a few times, the results are always the same. Both sides just disagree.

Luckily it is a mute point since Ashes won't have separate thinga for PvP and PvE as mentioned above.

But you are aware having different augments for PVP and PVE does not affect anyone negativly? It literally only has positive effects and actually opens up the game to be balanced. YOU dont need to agree. TBH this will never affect you at all. It will only make the game healthier. The whole poin of this is to avoid balancing issues. Nobody loses on it and its a win win for both PVE only and PVP only players.

bloodprophet

One other Thing to consider Marzzo is that they are balancing around a group of 8v8 not 1v1.

Marzzo

bloodprophet wrote: »

One other Thing to consider Marzzo is that they are balancing around a group of 8v8 not 1v1.

They will have rated 1v1, 3v3 and 5v5 that needs to be balanced. They also need to balance for 40 man raids, and 8 man groups. They also need to balance single player pve and pvp. They also need to balance different scenarios like castle sieges. Good luck doing this by standarsdizing pve and pvp. Show me one historical example of this working without specific PVP auguments.

Azathoth

Wait, if it makes the game healthier it for sure would effect my play. I will play both PvP and PvE as the game is designed as a PvX game.

I just pointed out there have been other threads and IS has said they won't do this.

Caeryl

The game is PvX, there is no PvE or PvP in the way that we know it.

Azryil

1v1 will never be balanced, they're taking a rock paper scissors approach to balance
I don't really feel like looking up all the references, browse to your hearts content. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance

Varkun

bloodprophet wrote: »

One other Thing to consider Marzzo is that they are balancing around a group of 8v8 not 1v1.

This has been stated several times the balance will not be aimed at 1v1. It has been stated several times that classes will have counters to each other the effect of which can be lessened by the secondary class you choose.

Honestly, it is going to be interesting to see just how this unfolds but as of now, this is their plan.

Wololo

agreed @marzzo1337 , I havnt seen it balanced either without splitting skills. Especially since CC often outweights DD in small scale PvP. But yeah balance will be around 8v8 and they cant perfect 1v1.
Now iam hoping IF there are differences; that it will be % modifiers and not change the skill entirely. How GW2 does it is alrdy to much for my liking. When switching between Pve/PvP/WvW there almost every skill has slightly different cooldown times, attack range or even miss freeze or stun effect.
This might be a good question to ask on QnA even though the answer is to be expected 'every class has its counter' but how do they really want to tackle these balance issues right from the alpha phases?

Azryil

They've already said long duration CC isn't going to be a thing.

bloodprophet

Not really sure I have ever heard or read any thing about rated 1v1 or 3v3.
Could entirely be wrong tho. But seems like every time they are asked this in Q&A's it always comes back to 8v8 / rock , paper scissors / hard counter. Perhaps I missed something. I late and I'll look this weekend unless someone has a link.

unknownsystemerror

@bloodprophet

georgeblack

Never in an open world mmorpg has there been an issue of balance.
Games that isolate PvP end up with balance problems.

In an open world mmorpg people love their classes and fulfill their roles both in war and adventure.
Open world mmorpgs are so full of meaning that players dont have time to keep checking if "is my class doing 1k dps less than the other classes" or "can my class kill every single opponent"

It all comes down to how many hours you devote to improve your character and how much effort you put in learning your character. The world is vast.
Not some stupid instance, dungeon or arena.
There are things to do instead of feeling victimized all the time.

Marzzo

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

@bloodprophet

What does balancing within effect zone mean?

Marzzo

georgeblack wrote: »

Never in an open world mmorpg has there been an issue of balance.
Games that isolate PvP end up with balance problems.

In an open world mmorpg people love their classes and fulfill their roles both in war and adventure.
Open world mmorpgs are so full of meaning that players dont have time to keep checking if "is my class doing 1k dps less than the other classes" or "can my class kill every single opponent"

It all comes down to how many hours you devote to improve your character and how much effort you put in learning your character. The world is vast.
Not some stupid instance, dungeon or arena.
There are things to do instead of feeling victimized all the time.

Just wait until your precious guilds castle gets overrun by 200 "Fire mages" one-shotting everyone with endless aoe with no counterplay and spawnkilling you all til 500+ hours of work are razed to the ground. If only, if only, that AOE stun effect only worked in pve.

bloodprophet

Interesting.
Never came across that.
Thank you.

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