Wandering Mist wrote: » "So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding." Why? There are plenty of valid reasons for someone not to raid, the simplest of which being that they just don't want to. Raiding isn't for everyone. It's a niche activity that some people just don't enjoy. Some people enjoy crafting, exploring or PvP and so focus on that instead of raiding. The other main reason why raiding is a niche activity is because of time. Unlike other activities in an mmorpg, raiding (even entry level raiding) requires the player to play at a certain time. You can't just log on one day and spontaneously say "I'm going to do a raid right now". No, you have to plan it for a certain time and day so that the other members of the raid know and will join you. I know quite a few people who physically can't commit to structured raiding times due to their work or family life. Yes the game can help promote raiding and encourage players to try it, but if the players either don't like it or can't commit to any kind of gaming schedule, then there is very little you can do to get them to raid.
consultant wrote: » Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct.
consultant wrote: » Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.
unknownsystemerror wrote: » The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.
unknownsystemerror wrote: » Souls and Cuphead are single player games.
Wandering Mist wrote: » And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer.
Wandering Mist wrote: » At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.
consultant wrote: » Well gents I made some posts about player development cause in some games the poeple that actually raid is very low. Lot less than half. Some of that is due to instant que and toxicity and raid prep times plus other things I do not want to discuss. But by the looks of it some of the ideas were not taken to well so I will just generalize in the following statement. Really no reason for an average person that plays MMOs not to do entry level raid. So I would recommend to the Ashes of Creation do something about. The game is Actually looking pretty good as far as raiding is concerned but keep in mind that a lot of people are going to be coming from the world of instant que world which kind of lends itself to the I want it right now type of thinking. Whatever is out there right now like websites that includes videos on how to do everything and forums that tell you basically how to do everything and wikis were you could look everything up. Plus any other thing that you can think of is not working. So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding. So the point is with all the tools that players have a lot of toons still do not raid. Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss. So if anyone has any ideas to get people involved in raiding you could post them here or start your own threads.
Dygz wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer. Single player v multiplayer is significantly different. Just as RPG v FPS is significantly different. But the reason that MMORPGS can no longer get by catering to hardcore players and ignoring casuals is because the vast majority of the MMORPG playerbase is some form of casual : either casual time or casual challenge or both. Because most of the people who used to be hardcore time and hardcore challenge have jobs and/or families that demand too much of their free time. Wandering Mist wrote: » At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly. True, but that is really a separate issue.
Damokles wrote: » consultant wrote: » Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss. Thats what killed WoW in my opinion. Blizzard was bought by Activision and they made it mainstream mid/late WotLK. They wanted a mainstream WoW, where everyone could be special, where everyone was a hero, but that was not the identity of WoW. The identity of WoW player characters was to be explorers, not heroes. Raids where supposed to be a troup of expendables going in to do their job, and save shit (imagine suicide squad without being forced by other people to do it). But Blizzard gave the casuals the ability to obtaine epic gear through "easy" methods, which in turn made the hardcore players angry. They worked hard for those epics. They bled and spilled tears for those epics, and now Blizzard started to give them away like candy. Look at current WoW, every child can get "epic" gear by completing World Quests. Epic does not mean epic anymore tbh.... Sry, I kinda blanked out there. It is my opinion that game studios should not tailor their games to the players, but that the other case should apply. PLayers should start again to adapt to games. Thats what made Dark Souls so popular... They didnt bow down to casuals. They didnt tailor their game to casuals, but demanded from people to get good at their game if they wanted cool sh*t.
Wandering Mist wrote: » unknownsystemerror wrote: » The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play. What you say doesn't make much sense at all. If catering to the "hardcore" players is a bad idea then why do the souls games, as well as games like cuphead do so well? In my opinion what is more likely to drive players away is punishing mechanics. Full loot pvp is an example of this. The nature of the mechanic means that you can lose all your items through no fault of your own. If I lose due to my own mistakes that is fine, but if I play perfectly and still lose, that feels awful.
Wandering Mist wrote: » unknownsystemerror wrote: » Souls and Cuphead are single player games. And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer. Correlation does NOT equal causation. Just because a game like Wildstar that catered to "hardcore" players failed, doesn't mean it failed because it catered to "hardcore" players. There have been rumours that the development of Wildstar was very badly handled by management, which is a common problem with a lot of games.https://www.resetera.com/threads/ex-wildstar-dev-details-what-went-wrong-in-development.63594/ At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.
