[Constructive Discussion] Hybrid Combat System

Based on this clip, Intrepid don't have clear vision yet on what the hybrid combat system is going to look like.

In this discussion, I wish that we can talk about how to make the hybrid system work.

How can we make the hybrid system balanced and enjoyable?
What do you suggest? What do you want? Mechanics? Skills?

Let's brainstorm. Share your thoughts below

Disclaimer: This is NOT another tab target vs action topic.

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Comments

Rem_

I think it is possible to work, but it'll take a lot of thought and testing ! I feel that the tab and action system have to have their own benefits and weaknesses.

For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit, but it would do less damage then it's action counterpart because you have to aim it and it isn't always 100% going to hit because you have to rely on your own aim.

This is just one little example but I'm sure there's tons more ! It would be hard balancing things like cc and stuns and such though, because I feel it would always be better on tab targeting unless it had an extended duration on action. Then again it could be OP with action because it could last too long and it'll just need a LOT of testing ! I'm sure they can do it though, what do you think ?

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Nagash

At this point, a version of guild wars 2 combat with added action combat would be perfect

Rem_

Yea I hadn't even thought about that, if someone just only specs into tab targeted abilities will they just always have an advantage because everything is 100% going to hit ? They definitely have a lot of work to do especially since they haven't let the players try their hybrid combat either. I'd definitely rather wait longer and have them get it right though then have it be a mess like what I heard about BLESS.

Ferryman

Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?

Nagash

ferryman wrote: »

Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?

guild wars 2 has tab target combat with rolling and manually aimed spells and that does it quite well

Rem_

I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.

Nagash

Poko wrote: »

I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.

No one talks about Bless just like no one talks about dawn of war 3

Wololo

I think there are 2 ways of going with this;

-Taking alpha 0 tab target and adding action elements to it like @Nagash sayd more like GW2. Directional dodges with iframes. Ground templates that can move/block/reflect arrows etc. Alot of cc countered by stunbreaks. Autoattacks can hit wherever you want without needing a target. Most defence comes from positioning and LoS. Blocks only block the direction you are facing. This is the 'safe way' because it had success in the past. This is not TRUE action combat because it needs no reticle.

-Taking APOC action combat and adding tab skills to it. Naturally action skills need to be stronger because they are harder to hit. You can't simply 50/50 them and hope balance will solve everything. To not make action OP there needs to be synergy between skills like Steven mentioned in that clip. Some suggestions have come foreward from the community like housing CC skills mostly in action and CC-break in tab. Or debuffs/status effects mostly from tab and buffs/purify in action. Movement skills mostly from action and iframes from tab. Also think about a game like Spellbreak that has alot of combo effects: Tab could place down a poison cloud and only a action projectile ( arrow ) that goes trough it making it explode so you always need one action skills to go with your tab AoE. Or a healer that tabs a single target heal and can boost it by hitting some floating bubble above theyr head with a action heal. Or a tank that taunt marks targets with action and its up to tab to keep this taunt up. There are alot of variables that can be housed in either tab or action. Either how, I think any sort of 75/25% pick should be viable else ppl will QQ and the meta and aim of balance should remain around this 50/50%.

My biggest worry about this second system or the game in general is that IF it fails; it is hard to fall back on the first 'safe' system. That would basicly mean a waste of money time and starting from scratch except the skill FX they have designed ofcource. Very risky move but if you imagine a APOC BR match with some added tab skills, better camera position, it feels like it can be done tbh that gives hope. If there is anyone that can do it, it should be Intrepid !

Damokles

Poko wrote: »

Yea I hadn't even thought about that, if someone just only specs into tab targeted abilities will they just always have an advantage because everything is 100% going to hit ? They definitely have a lot of work to do especially since they haven't let the players try their hybrid combat either. I'd definitely rather wait longer and have them get it right though then have it be a mess like what I heard about BLESS.

They stated that 100% of either tab or action would be impossible. The highest % for either is supposed to be 75%.

Noaani

Poko wrote: »

For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit

Except they don't

In a tab target system, your opposition has stats like dodge, block and parry. When you use an ability on a target, the mechanics of the game perform a roll to determine if the attack actually hits or not, and then there is a check against resistance, mitigation and/or armor to see if the attack does the full amount of damage or not.

In most MMO's (the most popular MMO at any given point in time has literally always been a tab target MMO), the higher the level of your target, the greater the chances of missing will be.

This is the basics of tab target vs action - tab target is all about stats, action takes most of those stats away and leaves it to the players involved.

I have yet to see an action combat system where you can hit the target, but have it registered as a miss based on stats - and I wouldn't want to see one either, that sounds stupid.

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Noaani

Tsukasa wrote: »

Evasion/resistance and Accuracy stats is very possible, with different values against each system.

You can't really have a tab target system without them.

If I were developing a game like Ashes, I'd do exactly as you've hinted at here. I'd have action and tb based attacks, but also defenses that you would expect to find in each game.

In an action game, that defense is essentially moving out of the way of an attack, or putting something between that attack and your character.

In a tab based game, it is all about stats like mitigation, resistance, armor, evasion, dodge, block, parry, accuracy, strike through, resistance penetration etc.

In a game with a mix of both, I'd make it so the action based defense work best on action based attack, and tab based defense work best of tab based attacks, and the opposing defense is maybe around 50% as effective.

This would add a whole lot to the PvP meta of the game, and would turn the 2D rock, paper scissors paradigm in to a very real 3D meta situation.

I'd also set damage on abilities up so that tab target abilities have a much wider range of damage than action based abilities, and have a comparable action ability do damage in a smaller range near the higher end of where a tab ability is set. If a tab target ability does 70 - 100 damage, a similar action ability should do 85 - 95 damage.

This means that if you hit an opponent with both abilities 100 times, you should statistically do 8,500 damage with the tab ability, or 9,000 with the action ability - even if the tab ability has the change of hitting for slightly more.

The only real question I have about how combat in Ashes could work is in regards to raids - I see no real point in the action part of action combat (in relation to attacking) when 40 people are all attacking one encounter.

It's not like one encounter can dodge attacks from 40 players, and if the encounter can't dodge it, why bother with action?

To me, it seems like action combat will end up being more PvP focused, and tab combat will end up being more PvE focused. This isn't how I'd want it to be, it isn't what I'd try to make it if I were in a position to influence it, but it really is one way I could see it going.

It would be interesting to see the results of a poll where players were given the choice between action/PvP, action/PvE, tab/PvP and tab/PvE to see what people were more interested in. I have a feeling I know which two would be out in front.

Atama

Positioning matters in tab target as well.

You need to be in range for a skill to reach. Some skills won’t work if you’re too close (like charging in WoW). A backstab skill might require you to be behind the enemy, and there may be other advantages to attacking from behind. In Lord of the Rings Online you have block (only if you have a shield), parry, and evade, but only evade applies if you’re being attacked from behind.

There’s also running out of area of effect attacks, special encounters where you need to hide behind cover at certain times, and so on. Tab target doesn’t just mean “stand still and spam keys” unless the game sucks.

Rem_

noaani wrote: »

Poko wrote: »

For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit

Except they don't

In a tab target system, your opposition has stats like dodge, block and parry. When you use an ability on a target, the mechanics of the game perform a roll to determine if the attack actually hits or not, and then there is a check against resistance, mitigation and/or armor to see if the attack does the full amount of damage or not.

In most MMO's (the most popular MMO at any given point in time has literally always been a tab target MMO), the higher the level of your target, the greater the chances of missing will be.

This is the basics of tab target vs action - tab target is all about stats, action takes most of those stats away and leaves it to the players involved.

I have yet to see an action combat system where you can hit the target, but have it registered as a miss based on stats - and I wouldn't want to see one either, that sounds stupid.

Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me. If I spec into tab targeted abilities because the whole point is they're easy to hit because you don't have to aim and my opponent has a random dodge chance that sounds terrible. It's like gambling when you use an ability, but I guess some rng in games has to exist. I'd just like it in different areas rather than competitive areas such as combat. Seems like a really bad choice to have it there with random dodge chances

Ferryman

Nagash wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?

guild wars 2 has tab target combat with rolling and manually aimed spells and that does it quite well

Okay, I have not personally played GW2 and I am not familiar with its combat, but if it is working great maybe something could be borrowed from there.

Poko wrote: »

I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.

At least some classes had kind of hybrid combat in use, like that Berserker. Yeah the combat was really bad, but was it because of that hybrid? Not sure, I guess the biggest proglems were in combat design in general and optimization. If I remember right, those classes which used more tab -targeting was even worse..

Pitou

if u look at the trailer of pve a while ago in the dungeon , and the community was like wow the combat shit , there trying to please everyone and that will not work , so basically is a cluster fuck

Noaani

Poko wrote: »

Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me.

If your attacks are missing, get more of the stat that makes them hit.

Going after better gear (aka, more stats) is the essence of an MMO.

Blackhearted

IS probably has multiple ways to make action relevant for raiding. Theyve already talked about skill collision and hard cc being gated behind action and in addition to that I could see damage checks on weak spots that you need to aim at, blinding a boss to limit aoe?

IS is already getting a lot of accuracy data from Apoc and I hope theyll balance around that.
Best players getting 50% accuracy with 75% action and 75% tab having 90% accuracy should mean that action build gets that 40% effectiveness from extra damage or cc

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