Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

[Constructive Discussion] Hybrid Combat System

TsukasaTsukasa Member
edited October 2019 in General Discussion
Based on this clip, Intrepid don't have clear vision yet on what the hybrid combat system is going to look like.

In this discussion, I wish that we can talk about how to make the hybrid system work.

How can we make the hybrid system balanced and enjoyable?
What do you suggest? What do you want? Mechanics? Skills?

Let's brainstorm. Share your thoughts below o:)



Disclaimer: This is NOT another tab target vs action topic.
«1

Comments

  • I think it is possible to work, but it'll take a lot of thought and testing ! I feel that the tab and action system have to have their own benefits and weaknesses.

    For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit, but it would do less damage then it's action counterpart because you have to aim it and it isn't always 100% going to hit because you have to rely on your own aim.

    This is just one little example but I'm sure there's tons more ! It would be hard balancing things like cc and stuns and such though, because I feel it would always be better on tab targeting unless it had an extended duration on action. Then again it could be OP with action because it could last too long and it'll just need a LOT of testing ! I'm sure they can do it though, what do you think ?
    Poko.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    At this point, a version of guild wars 2 combat with added action combat would be perfect
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Yea I hadn't even thought about that, if someone just only specs into tab targeted abilities will they just always have an advantage because everything is 100% going to hit ? They definitely have a lot of work to do especially since they haven't let the players try their hybrid combat either. I'd definitely rather wait longer and have them get it right though then have it be a mess like what I heard about BLESS.
    Poko.png
  • Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    ferryman wrote: »
    Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?

    guild wars 2 has tab target combat with rolling and manually aimed spells and that does it quite well
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.
    Poko.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Poko wrote: »
    I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.

    No one talks about Bless just like no one talks about dawn of war 3
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • WololoWololo Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think there are 2 ways of going with this;

    -Taking alpha 0 tab target and adding action elements to it like @Nagash sayd more like GW2. Directional dodges with iframes. Ground templates that can move/block/reflect arrows etc. Alot of cc countered by stunbreaks. Autoattacks can hit wherever you want without needing a target. Most defence comes from positioning and LoS. Blocks only block the direction you are facing. This is the 'safe way' because it had success in the past. This is not TRUE action combat because it needs no reticle.

    -Taking APOC action combat and adding tab skills to it. Naturally action skills need to be stronger because they are harder to hit. You can't simply 50/50 them and hope balance will solve everything. To not make action OP there needs to be synergy between skills like Steven mentioned in that clip. Some suggestions have come foreward from the community like housing CC skills mostly in action and CC-break in tab. Or debuffs/status effects mostly from tab and buffs/purify in action. Movement skills mostly from action and iframes from tab. Also think about a game like Spellbreak that has alot of combo effects: Tab could place down a poison cloud and only a action projectile ( arrow ) that goes trough it making it explode so you always need one action skills to go with your tab AoE. Or a healer that tabs a single target heal and can boost it by hitting some floating bubble above theyr head with a action heal. Or a tank that taunt marks targets with action and its up to tab to keep this taunt up. There are alot of variables that can be housed in either tab or action. Either how, I think any sort of 75/25% pick should be viable else ppl will QQ and the meta and aim of balance should remain around this 50/50%.

    My biggest worry about this second system or the game in general is that IF it fails; it is hard to fall back on the first 'safe' system. That would basicly mean a waste of money time and starting from scratch except the skill FX they have designed ofcource. Very risky move but if you imagine a APOC BR match with some added tab skills, better camera position, it feels like it can be done tbh that gives hope. If there is anyone that can do it, it should be Intrepid !
    Signature-management.gif?ex=655e18f7&is=654ba3f7&hm=332292acbc67db53f72418c86ee94ab70c5eb8fc084a06643769d293485ec1e8&=
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Poko wrote: »
    Yea I hadn't even thought about that, if someone just only specs into tab targeted abilities will they just always have an advantage because everything is 100% going to hit ? They definitely have a lot of work to do especially since they haven't let the players try their hybrid combat either. I'd definitely rather wait longer and have them get it right though then have it be a mess like what I heard about BLESS.

    They stated that 100% of either tab or action would be impossible. The highest % for either is supposed to be 75%.
    roaaztC.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Poko wrote: »
    For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit
    Except they don't

    In a tab target system, your opposition has stats like dodge, block and parry. When you use an ability on a target, the mechanics of the game perform a roll to determine if the attack actually hits or not, and then there is a check against resistance, mitigation and/or armor to see if the attack does the full amount of damage or not.

    In most MMO's (the most popular MMO at any given point in time has literally always been a tab target MMO), the higher the level of your target, the greater the chances of missing will be.

    This is the basics of tab target vs action - tab target is all about stats, action takes most of those stats away and leaves it to the players involved.

    I have yet to see an action combat system where you can hit the target, but have it registered as a miss based on stats - and I wouldn't want to see one either, that sounds stupid.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2019
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    Evasion/resistance and Accuracy stats is very possible, with different values against each system.
    You can't really have a tab target system without them.

    If I were developing a game like Ashes, I'd do exactly as you've hinted at here. I'd have action and tb based attacks, but also defenses that you would expect to find in each game.

    In an action game, that defense is essentially moving out of the way of an attack, or putting something between that attack and your character.

    In a tab based game, it is all about stats like mitigation, resistance, armor, evasion, dodge, block, parry, accuracy, strike through, resistance penetration etc.

    In a game with a mix of both, I'd make it so the action based defense work best on action based attack, and tab based defense work best of tab based attacks, and the opposing defense is maybe around 50% as effective.

    This would add a whole lot to the PvP meta of the game, and would turn the 2D rock, paper scissors paradigm in to a very real 3D meta situation.

    I'd also set damage on abilities up so that tab target abilities have a much wider range of damage than action based abilities, and have a comparable action ability do damage in a smaller range near the higher end of where a tab ability is set. If a tab target ability does 70 - 100 damage, a similar action ability should do 85 - 95 damage.

    This means that if you hit an opponent with both abilities 100 times, you should statistically do 8,500 damage with the tab ability, or 9,000 with the action ability - even if the tab ability has the change of hitting for slightly more.

    The only real question I have about how combat in Ashes could work is in regards to raids - I see no real point in the action part of action combat (in relation to attacking) when 40 people are all attacking one encounter.

    It's not like one encounter can dodge attacks from 40 players, and if the encounter can't dodge it, why bother with action?

    To me, it seems like action combat will end up being more PvP focused, and tab combat will end up being more PvE focused. This isn't how I'd want it to be, it isn't what I'd try to make it if I were in a position to influence it, but it really is one way I could see it going.

    It would be interesting to see the results of a poll where players were given the choice between action/PvP, action/PvE, tab/PvP and tab/PvE to see what people were more interested in. I have a feeling I know which two would be out in front.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Positioning matters in tab target as well.

    You need to be in range for a skill to reach. Some skills won’t work if you’re too close (like charging in WoW). A backstab skill might require you to be behind the enemy, and there may be other advantages to attacking from behind. In Lord of the Rings Online you have block (only if you have a shield), parry, and evade, but only evade applies if you’re being attacked from behind.

    There’s also running out of area of effect attacks, special encounters where you need to hide behind cover at certain times, and so on. Tab target doesn’t just mean “stand still and spam keys” unless the game sucks.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • noaani wrote: »
    Poko wrote: »
    For example you can take a tab ability and know for sure it will hit
    Except they don't

    In a tab target system, your opposition has stats like dodge, block and parry. When you use an ability on a target, the mechanics of the game perform a roll to determine if the attack actually hits or not, and then there is a check against resistance, mitigation and/or armor to see if the attack does the full amount of damage or not.

    In most MMO's (the most popular MMO at any given point in time has literally always been a tab target MMO), the higher the level of your target, the greater the chances of missing will be.

    This is the basics of tab target vs action - tab target is all about stats, action takes most of those stats away and leaves it to the players involved.

    I have yet to see an action combat system where you can hit the target, but have it registered as a miss based on stats - and I wouldn't want to see one either, that sounds stupid.

    Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me. If I spec into tab targeted abilities because the whole point is they're easy to hit because you don't have to aim and my opponent has a random dodge chance that sounds terrible. It's like gambling when you use an ability, but I guess some rng in games has to exist. I'd just like it in different areas rather than competitive areas such as combat. Seems like a really bad choice to have it there with random dodge chances
    Poko.png
  • Nagash wrote: »
    ferryman wrote: »
    Does anyone know a game where hybrid -targeting is in use? If yes, what have been the results?

    guild wars 2 has tab target combat with rolling and manually aimed spells and that does it quite well

    Okay, I have not personally played GW2 and I am not familiar with its combat, but if it is working great maybe something could be borrowed from there.
    Poko wrote: »
    I heard bless online was hybrid but I'm not sure what it was actually like. I'm assuming bad since it died to quickly.

    At least some classes had kind of hybrid combat in use, like that Berserker. Yeah the combat was really bad, but was it because of that hybrid? Not sure, I guess the biggest proglems were in combat design in general and optimization. If I remember right, those classes which used more tab -targeting was even worse..
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • PitouPitou Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    if u look at the trailer of pve a while ago in the dungeon , and the community was like wow the combat shit , there trying to please everyone and that will not work , so basically is a cluster fuck
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Poko wrote: »
    Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me.
    If your attacks are missing, get more of the stat that makes them hit.

    Going after better gear (aka, more stats) is the essence of an MMO.
  • IS probably has multiple ways to make action relevant for raiding. Theyve already talked about skill collision and hard cc being gated behind action and in addition to that I could see damage checks on weak spots that you need to aim at, blinding a boss to limit aoe?

    IS is already getting a lot of accuracy data from Apoc and I hope theyll balance around that.
    Best players getting 50% accuracy with 75% action and 75% tab having 90% accuracy should mean that action build gets that 40% effectiveness from extra damage or cc
    "You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
    You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    IS probably has multiple ways to make action relevant for raiding. Theyve already talked about skill collision and hard cc being gated behind action and in addition to that I could see damage checks on weak spots that you need to aim at, blinding a boss to limit aoe?

    IS is already getting a lot of accuracy data from Apoc and I hope theyll balance around that.
    Best players getting 50% accuracy with 75% action and 75% tab having 90% accuracy should mean that action build gets that 40% effectiveness from extra damage or cc

    My current understanding of skill collision is that it is restricted to skills that specifically block, like casting a defensive wall.

    I agree in general with the idea that if action combat is generally less accurate than tab combat, action should have a slight advantage built in. The question I have there is that if the way to dodge action combat is to move out of the way, how will that be possible when you have 40 action combat abilities coming at a raid encounter at the same time? Suddenly, those action abilities have a 95% accuracy, because the encounter can't get out of the way of them all.
  • Revelation Online offered option to choose the targeting style. Nice idea on paper, but in practise those were not in balance (at least in beta), but I guess the same problem was still in live. I wanted to play with action combat, but tab -targeting was easier and that way more effective, so if you wanted to be at least somehow competitive, you needed to go with the better one. Okay, this is only one reference, but I can see the problematic if players can choose what combat style they want to use. Maybe this is something what concerns me with the hybrid -system, there might come ahead a really complex balance problems, maybe, I do not know, but it bothers me a lil bit anyway. I really hope the hybrid will work, it sounds at least interesting and something I want to test out.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • noaani wrote: »
    Poko wrote: »
    Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me.
    If your attacks are missing, get more of the stat that makes them hit.

    Going after better gear (aka, more stats) is the essence of an MMO.

    Luckily, action combat will be a lot less reliant on RNG compared to tab targeted abilities @Poko

    Screen_Shot_2019-10-14_at_23.42.59.png


    signature.png
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    edited October 2019
    Oh thank goodness! I'm glad we'll have the choice between rng or action combat ! At least in the ways of combat I prefer as least random rng elements as possible ! @Magic Man I feel it's rewarding to know you're not going to have to rely on RNG and you can rely on yourself !
    Poko.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Magic Man wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    Poko wrote: »
    Yea well then that's basically rolling a dice in combat which would feel terrible to me.
    If your attacks are missing, get more of the stat that makes them hit.

    Going after better gear (aka, more stats) is the essence of an MMO.

    Luckily, action combat will be a lot less reliant on RNG compared to tab targeted abilities @Poko
    Well, I mean, obviously.

    If stats are going to matter at all, then there will also be an element of RNG in that mix. If abilities have a range of damage that they can deal, then there will be RNG in that mix.

    In fact, what I said right here
    noaani wrote: »
    I'd also set damage on abilities up so that tab target abilities have a much wider range of damage than action based abilities, and have a comparable action ability do damage in a smaller range near the higher end of where a tab ability is set. If a tab target ability does 70 - 100 damage, a similar action ability should do 85 - 95 damage.

    This means that if you hit an opponent with both abilities 100 times, you should statistically do 8,500 damage with the tab ability, or 9,000 with the action ability - even if the tab ability has the change of hitting for slightly more.
    It a literal example, with actual numbers, of how I would want a hybrid system designed where the tab abilities have a higher reliance on RNG (because that IS a factor in tab targeting, as tab target games are all based on stats, and stat based games NEED RNG to function in any sort of enjoyable manner).

    The above example also reduces the reliance on RNG that action combat would have, down to the point where it is essentially negligible.

    I mean, to anyone that has played both types of games, this kind of thing honestly doesn't even need to be stated. I mean, it's always nice to have it from a developer of the game, but I don't think anyone assumed that action combat in Ashes would be as reliant on RNG as tab based combat would be.
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Without reading the other comments at this time, my impression on how to balance tab vs action is
    • ACC and EVA stats that only affect tab skills
    • Effects (ie speed boost, knockback, stat siphon, etc.) exclusive to either tab or action
    After those is balancing DPS between attacks that don't require aiming and those that do. That, unfortunately, will require hands on testing as well as implementation of above systems, since ACC/EVA affect DPS too.
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    noaani wrote: »
    The only real question I have about how combat in Ashes could work is in regards to raids - I see no real point in the action part of action combat (in relation to attacking) when 40 people are all attacking one encounter.

    It's not like one encounter can dodge attacks from 40 players, and if the encounter can't dodge it, why bother with action?

    That would be weak spots. The easiest example is with ranged attacks: targeting the eyes for bonus damage. This can be applied in a broader sense to the entire monster -- Monster Hunter World does this, hitting the head deals more damage than the body which deals more damage than the limbs or tails and hitting soft, unarmored parts is better than not. In fact, attacks can bounce if an armored part is struck in MHW.

    This way, raid bosses can have high damage resistance across most of their body except for weak points on rapidly moving parts, such as the head, wings or tail.

    Action combat can also take from Monster Hunter World in stunning and KOing monsters. If enough blunt damage is dealt to the head, a monster becomes stunned and unable to act - free DPS for players, and a KO knocks the monster over, exposing body parts otherwise difficult to hit and also giving a window for increased player DPS. If we make these mechanics exclusive to action combat, we'll see tab deal consistent damage the entire encounter while action deals low damage until the KO happens, then a spike of high damage.

    Action combat can also adapt binds from Etrian Odyssey: disabling body parts, thereby disabling skills requiring those body parts. On large enemies, action players can target the wings to prevent flight, legs to cripple movement, tail to cut it off, etc.

    There is still the issue of player collision: only so many players can squeeze into the boss's butt. This is where a balance of ranged and melee attackers in the raid would be vital.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2019
    ilisfet wrote: »

    This way, raid bosses can have high damage resistance across most of their body except for weak points on rapidly moving parts, such as the head, wings or tail.
    I could see this working really well.

    To me, the ideal here would be where an encounter requires both attacking the bulk of the encounters body, but also at specific times (or for specific purposes, or even just in general) directing attacks to specific areas.

    Since tab target attacks would work best on the bulk of the body, and action combat abilities would work best on the specific points, and both need to be attacked, this could then mean a raid is at it's best with a mix of tab and action builds - and that is exactly what *should* be required on a 40 man raid in a game with a hybrid system.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I am pretty sure they ruled out things like headshots or aiming for “weak spots”. Action combat is going to be hit or miss. Unless something changed recently. They’re not trying to be a first-person shooter.

    (Not that I’d be opposed to that myself.)
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • Some games with action combat has this assist feature combined with targeting. One very basic one is that color of the scope changes when you are in the target's hitbox and that way helps you to hit in the right time. Another assistant mechanic helps you to lock and follow your target when you are aiming. I guess it is kind of "semi tab -targeting", it helps you to hit your target, but does not do that automatically like basic tab. Could there be some use for assist targeting features in Ashes hybrid combat system?
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
Sign In or Register to comment.