Discussion; secondary class doesn't matter.

As far as I can tell, secondary classes do two things. They provide a list of adornments to spells and abilities of the primary class, and they are used to determine stats gained with each new level.

So, if our primary archetype will be where all of our base spells and abilities come from, and our secondary will provide those base spells and abilities with adornments we can select to apply, we can assume that the difference between a tank/tank and a tank/ranger will be almost entirely contained within the adornments each of these two classes have access to.

The thing is, we will gain access to more adornments as we adventure out in Verra.

In my experience playing MMO's, the best things are always the things that take the most time to get. If you apply this basic principle to these adornments, which group are likely to be better - the group of adornments you get as you level your character, or the group of adornments you actually spend time to gain access to?

Now, I admit I am making a few assumptions here - adornments found in the world will be based on primary archetype, not actual class is one assumption I am making.

What this says to me is that once players have spent time in Verra, once a large number of players have access to the ariety of adornments on offer outside of the class system, the bulk of players - those wanting to be the most effective at what they do at least - will likely all start using adornments on their spells and abilities that came from sources other than their secondary archetype.

If this is the case, if a tank/tank and a tank/ranger have the same spells and/or abilities selected, and the same adornments attached to them because they are the 'best' adornments, will there be any difference between a Guardian and a Warden?

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Damokles

They already stated that the secondary attunements will not be just adornments. A charge can change into a teleport for example. I think of the attunements more like a change in execution of the intent of a skill.
Okay here are sources for augments:
1. Class
2. Racial
3. Religious
4. Social Organisation

A social organisation for example are the tieves guild or merchants guild.
Social organizations are going to have questlines that players participate in which some will include sabotage, espionage, intrigue... While it's not necessarily player versus player in the combat sense, it is player versus player in pitting communities in those organizations kind of against each other in a competitive atmosphere, where only some things can be accomplished by certain communities; and not everybody can succeed at a particular task. So, I think that that's a unique way to involve meaningful conflict that doesn't necessarily have to relate to PvP, because obviously we have a lot of PvP systems in the game and and there are many ways for players to participate in player versus player combat; but we also want to make sure that from a progression standpoint, from a system standpoint there are going to be abilities of individuals to follow these questlines, these tasks that will pit organizations against each other, specifically from an organizational standpoint.

I think that most augmentations will comefrom your secondary class.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

They already stated that the secondary attunements will not be just adornments.

This is another of the assumptions I've made; attunement = adornment, at least in terms of function.

Have they specifically stated that you can have an attunement and and adornment on the same ability?

If they have, then there is plenty of scope for classes to always be distinct at least in terms of flavor. If they have not specifically said this - which I've not personally seen although I have not exhausted myself trying to find a comment - then what I said above is still a possibility.

Let's do some math.

If we assume 25 spells and abilities per archetype, and then 4 attunements per subclass for each spell or ability. Then an adornment list that includes one each from the 9 races, one each from the five gods or one from each of the three known social organisations.

Now, if the game allows for an attunment OR an adornment, that would mean the game will have 33,600 total spell and ability combinations. If we change that OR for an AND, that puts the number at 108,800.

And that is before we add in any other possible means of acquiring adornments.

This is why I made the assumption here that I have. I may be wrong in that assumption - thats the fun thing about them - but if I am wrong then I would say a 2022 release would be our best bet.

Damokles

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

They already stated that the secondary attunements will not be just adornments.

This is another of the assumptions I've made; attunement = adornment, at least in terms of function.

Have they specifically stated that you can have an attunement and and adornment on the same ability?

If they have, then there is plenty of scope for classes to always be distinct at least in terms of flavor. If they have not specifically said this - which I've not personally seen although I have not exhausted myself trying to find a comment - then what I said above is still a possibility.

Let's do some math.

If we assume 25 spells and abilities per archetype, and then 4 attunements per subclass for each spell or ability. Then an adornment list that includes one each from the 9 races, one each from the five gods or one from each of the three known social organisations.

Now, if the game allows for an attunment OR an adornment, that would mean the game will have 33,600 total spell and ability combinations. If we change that OR for an AND, that puts the number at 108,800.

And that is before we add in any other possible means of acquiring adornments.

This is why I made the assumption here that I have. I may be wrong in that assumption - thats the fun thing about them - but if I am wrong then I would say a 2022 release would be our best bet.

I dont really know what you mean with adornments tbh. There are adornments for armour yes, but abilities have only augmentations.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

They already stated that the secondary attunements will not be just adornments.

This is another of the assumptions I've made; attunement = adornment, at least in terms of function.

Have they specifically stated that you can have an attunement and and adornment on the same ability?

If they have, then there is plenty of scope for classes to always be distinct at least in terms of flavor. If they have not specifically said this - which I've not personally seen although I have not exhausted myself trying to find a comment - then what I said above is still a possibility.

Let's do some math.

If we assume 25 spells and abilities per archetype, and then 4 attunements per subclass for each spell or ability. Then an adornment list that includes one each from the 9 races, one each from the five gods or one from each of the three known social organisations.

Now, if the game allows for an attunment OR an adornment, that would mean the game will have 33,600 total spell and ability combinations. If we change that OR for an AND, that puts the number at 108,800.

And that is before we add in any other possible means of acquiring adornments.

This is why I made the assumption here that I have. I may be wrong in that assumption - thats the fun thing about them - but if I am wrong then I would say a 2022 release would be our best bet.

I dont really know what you mean with adornments tbh. There are adornments for armour yes, but abilities have only augmentations.

I may be getting my terms mixed up, but it doesn't alter much - it really is just a term.

Adornments/attunements (augments, as you state, is the term I am looking for here).

Our sub-class offers us four per spell/ability.

But if the ones that are available to us when we go out and adventure (social, religious etc) are better than the ones we get for just having a sub-class, then people won't use the ones we get from our sub-class. If these ones are worse, then they aren't much of a reward.

So my question is, if players opt to use only augments that they have put time and effort in to, what is the difference between different classes of the same archetype?

Now, if we can use one from our sub-class in conjunction with one from other means (social, religious etc), that would preserve the flavor of the actual class choice, but make the game far too complex.

Damokles

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

They already stated that the secondary attunements will not be just adornments.

This is another of the assumptions I've made; attunement = adornment, at least in terms of function.

Have they specifically stated that you can have an attunement and and adornment on the same ability?

If they have, then there is plenty of scope for classes to always be distinct at least in terms of flavor. If they have not specifically said this - which I've not personally seen although I have not exhausted myself trying to find a comment - then what I said above is still a possibility.

Let's do some math.

If we assume 25 spells and abilities per archetype, and then 4 attunements per subclass for each spell or ability. Then an adornment list that includes one each from the 9 races, one each from the five gods or one from each of the three known social organisations.

Now, if the game allows for an attunment OR an adornment, that would mean the game will have 33,600 total spell and ability combinations. If we change that OR for an AND, that puts the number at 108,800.

And that is before we add in any other possible means of acquiring adornments.

This is why I made the assumption here that I have. I may be wrong in that assumption - thats the fun thing about them - but if I am wrong then I would say a 2022 release would be our best bet.

I dont really know what you mean with adornments tbh. There are adornments for armour yes, but abilities have only augmentations.

I may be getting my terms mixed up, but it doesn't alter much - it really is just a term.

Adornments/attunements (augments, as you state, is the term I am looking for here).

Our sub-class offers us four per spell/ability.

But if the ones that are available to us when we go out and adventure (social, religious etc) are better than the ones we get for just having a sub-class, then people won't use the ones we get from our sub-class. If these ones are worse, then they aren't much of a reward.

So my question is, if players opt to use only augments that they have put time and effort in to, what is the difference between different classes of the same archetype?

Now, if we can use one from our sub-class in conjunction with one from other means (social, religious etc), that would preserve the flavor of the actual class choice, but make the game far too complex.

Okay I understand you point better now. XD
The thing is, that you have to assume here that those other augments are a) better then the secondary class augments and b) that they always fit you playstile better. You can mix and match how ever you like.

Lets make an example:
Your main class is rogue, and you want to be a high mobility, high burst world pvp machine.
What do you do?
You will most likely try to go for the assassins or thiefs guild for those possible augmentations from the social organisations, but you then also have your secondary class, lets say your secondary class is a mage, making you a nightspell rogue.
You go with mage augmentations to your attack abilities for that sweet armour ignoring magic modifiers, and choose your social augments for your mobility skills to maybe increase your stealth and burst potential when exiting stealth.
Then you can also decide to follow a specific god for his augments, lets say you follow the god of death or the god of thievery, right? They can maybe turn your long cds into something that you have to prep in advance, but when you hit on your next target you deal massive damage, or maybe, when you take damage that would kill you, you instead summon a smokescreen and 2 bodydoubles that move in different directions.

Do you see where i go here? It does not matter how many augmentations you choose from those other things, its all about your prefered playstile and I LOVE that freedom of choice we get here.

I can FINALLY elevate the normal dull support bard into my favourite class, which sadly got nerfed and changed later on. I will never forget the innitial Chanter from AION. A melee support dps healer hybrid that was as annoying to fight as it sounds.

Damokles

Here are some examples how i think the augments will go:

Class: Fighter
Skill: Charge
Definition: The user charges his target, dealing x amount of damage, knocking them to the ground at impact.

Augmentation through secondary class:
Weapon master - user inflicts bleed upon all enemies that he passes when he charges at his target, user also slows all enemies he passes through.
Dreadnaught - user gains a shield during the charge and cant be stunned or slowed
Shadowblade - user is cloaked in shadows and slips from shadow to shadow until he reaches his target. User cant be targetted during duration.
Hunter - user throws his weapon at his enemy, all enemies that are hit by the weapon are marked and recieve extra damage for x sec
Spellsword - user teleports to his target and knock down all enemies surrounding the target (can be used on allies)
Bladecaller - user summons a sword at target location and charges to it if desired. Sword deals x amount of damage in xradius around it after summon.
Highsword - user leaps in the air and stays airborn for 5sec. User can select ally or foe as travel destination. If user chose an ally then ally is healed by x amount and if enemy is chosen, then user deals x amount of holy damage to foe and surrounding enemies.
Bladedancer - user throws a sword at enemy location, dealing bleed effect to all enemies his. User can further choose to travel to sword location or not. Sword explodes after 3 sec in a 2m radius dealing further bleed damage. If user chose to travel to swords location then user inflicts enemies on route further bleed effetcs

Augmentation through social organisation:
Thiefs guild - user charges enemy, turns into sshadow for travel duration and cant be targetted in any way, but travelspeed is slowed.
Assassin guild - user charges enemy, and inflicts heavy damage if target is isolated
Explorer guild - user can choose a location he then charges to, does not need a target

Augmentation from race:
(Dwarf) dwarven sprint - user sprint at his target, knocking down all enemies in his way
(Tulnar) burrow - user summons ancient earth magic and burrows to his target knocking up all enemies surrounding his target.
(Orc) savage charge - user charges at his target, with each 1m he travels he gains momentum, increasing the damage and knockback effect.

None are much better then the others, but rather fill another role.

Undead Canuck

As has been said before, augmentations change the skill from the primary class. Just using augmentations from your secondary class would (probably) make profound changes to the skills. Just think of a high damage combat attack. Then it is augmented to become an elemental attack. That makes defending against it harder.
Or, as the wiki says, cleric secondary classes can had healing to your other abilities. This makes a big change as well.
Too bad you couldn't have 2 secondaries - Mage and Cleric. Extra damage that heals yourself!! Add Rogue, and you would be hidden before doing that! But let's not get too crazy.

nefelia

My biggest concern with the augmentation of skills is that it won't be deep enough to be truly interesting. Changing a charge to a teleport is rather boring unless it is accompanied by actual changes to gameplay. Rather than just a visual change, I'd hope to see a fighter/fighter's charge do damage with a guaranteed crit hit, while a fighter/mage's teleport does no attack or damage, but can ignore obstacles. Perhaps a fighter/tank would have a knock-down effect (and taunt for PvE). A fighter/summoner would pull the target to the player, rather than getting the player to the target.

noaani wrote: »

The thing is, we will gain access to more adornments as we adventure out in Verra.

How will these augments be applied? I've been out of the loop for a while, so I haven't heard of any confirmed plans for ability augmentation outside of those coming from the secondary class.

I'd love to see them come in the form of rare trait on talismans, as well as relics - like armour/weapons found in forgotten tombs (open world), dungeons (PvE), and battlefields (PvP).

Nagash

well without the secondary class I wouldn't have the necromancer so I would have to see it does bloody matter

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

The thing is, that you have to assume here that those other augments are a) better then the secondary class augments and b) that they always fit you playstile better.

Oh absolutely.

I know I am making a few assumptions, but lets assume that my assumptions are right for a minute here.

If there are augments obtainable out in Verra other than the augments we get from our secondary class, then, generally speaking, these augments should be better - if an augment is supposed to be a reward for something, that augment should be something people want to use.

If that is the case, and if as per my assumption there are augments available outside of the class system for every spell or ability we get, we get to the point I am trying to figure out.

Rather than asking whether this is possible - which it may or may not be - lets just assume for a second that it is. This is when my question comes in to play; if a Guardian (tank/tank) and a Warden (tank/ranger) both with the same gear, both select the same tank abilities and then both select the same augments for those abilities outside of their secondary class (which we are assuming is possible, even if it is not optimal), is there anything else at all that their secondary class gives them that would then separate these two characters from each other?

If there is not, it means that every augment Intrepid add to the game outside of the class system diminish the value of that class system by just a little bit.

nefelia

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

If there are augments obtainable out in Verra other than the augments we get from our secondary class, then, generally speaking, these augments should be better....

No. The augments should be different, not better.

To borrow from Diablo 3, you could have an augment like "15% chance to cast fireball when attacking", where the fireball's damage is determined by the player's primary stat. Or we can have "+ X armour for 5 seconds when below Y% health. This ability can only occur every 20 seconds". Or perhaps "After 6 consecutive attacks with non-critical hits, the next 2 attacks will critically hit".

These augments could be interesting abilities or procs that can be useful for all players without competing with augments from secondary skills.

if a Guardian (tank/tank) and a Warden (tank/ranger) both with the same gear, both select the same tank abilities and then both select the same augments for those abilities outside of their secondary class (which we are assuming is possible, even if it is not optimal), is there anything else at all that their secondary class gives them that would then separate these two characters from each other?

That all depends on how creatively the secondary augments are crafted. A simple look at Diablo 3's runes show that it is very much possible to greatly alter the function of an ability with a secondary augment. For example, electrocute (basically a chain lightning spell), gets augments/runes that: allow the spell to chain to two more targets (boring, but powerful); makes critical hits with the spell proc charged bolts (pretty fun and useful with a high crit chance); lets the played gain 5 arcane power for every enemy hit (kinda boring, but very useful); changes the ability to streaks of lightning that pierce through enemies (completely different play style); or changes the ability to a short ranged cone of crackling lightning in front of the player (again, completely different play style).

If Intrepid Studios can match the creativity of the Blizzard team, then secondary augments should be able to create enough variety in game play to satisfy even the harshest critic.

If there is not, it means that every augment Intrepid add to the game outside of the class system diminish the value of that class system by just a little bit.

If there is not, then the secondary augments are a lacklustre feature regardless of whatever other augments would be added to the game. The solution to this is to:
1) Ensure that secondary class augments are interesting and impactful.
2) Create tertiary augments that grant abilities, boosts, and procs that are not simply variations of the secondary class augments.

Noaani

nefelia wrote: »

No. The augments should be different, not better.

Ideally, yeah.

Thing is, this isn't what I am asking.

I'm not asking if there will be worthwhile augments in the class abilities - I'm sure there will be (better than Diablo 3 - Diablo 3 is one of the most imaginatively lacking games to be released in the last 10 years - Path of Exile is a far better game in every respect).

What I am asking is that if a Guardian and a Warden both make use of the same augments that are available to them outside of the class system, is there anything else to differentiate these two classes?

I am asking this question regardless of whether it will make sense for the players to use those augments. Rather than being about such augments, the question is in relation to "what else does our secondary class give us".

Dygz

Keep in mind that secondary archetype causes other changes to the primary archetype besides just the augments.
For instance, "some summoners may summon multiple things, other summoners may only summon one powerful thing. Certain summoners may only be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies. Depends on the secondary class you choose."

I don't think we have enough details about how augments outside the class system affects primary abilities or how they interact with class augments to speculate about how similar a Guardian and a Warden might be if they ignored all their class augments and both focused on the same Religious or Node augments.

Great question for the next dev stream!

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Keep in mind that secondary archetype causes other changes to the primary archetype besides just the augments.
For instance, "some summoners may summon multiple things, other summoners may only summon one powerful thing. Certain summoners may only be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies. Depends on the secondary class you choose."

I don't think we have enough details about how augments outside the class system affects primary abilities or how they interact with class augments to speculate about how similar a Guardian and a Warden might be if they ignored all their class augments and both focused on the same Religious or Node augments.

Great question for the next dev stream!

In regards to summoners, I would have to assume that the difference between a summoner that summons one strong powerful thing, many smaller things or effects etc would be based around which augment they opt to use from their secondary class.

I mean, the assumption I am making is that summoners all get a "summon" ability, and then the augments you put on that determine what it is you summon and how many you can have summoned at a time.

This may well not be a result of augments - I have been careful to point out several times that I am making assumptions here.

But yeah, if someone did ssk in the next Q&A if there was anything given to characters from their secondary class other than augments, it would wrap this up easily.

Dygz

The wording we have is “depends on the secondary class you choose”, rather than, “depends on the augments that are used.”
But, it’s possible that Steven wasn’t being that literal.

So, yep, great question!
Hopefully, we can get that answered in the next live stream.

mcstackerson

Last I heard, your secondary class also affects your stats. Your race seeds your stats and your class/secondary class grows them. I assume this means a guardian will have more stam and a warden will have more dex.

I don't think you should assume augments found in the world are better as they have always been described as a form of horizontal progression, they should just be different. I don't find it a big deal if a player chooses to use augments from outside their secondary class choice and instead think it's cool that we have that option.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Last I heard, your secondary class also affects your stats. Your race seeds your stats and your class/secondary class grows them. I assume this means a guardian will have more stam and a warden will have more dex.

I don't think you should assume augments found in the world are better as they have always been described as a form of horizontal progression, they should just be different. I don't find it a big deal if a player chooses to use augments from outside their secondary class choice and instead think it's cool that we have that option.

I'm aware of the stats that will be based on class, and mentioned it briefly in the OP.

The info I can find on it is that the stats are gained based on class each new level. This then leaves the question of whether or not your stats change when you change your secondary class, or if you gain stats based on what class you were at the point in time you gained each level.

It is also entirely possible that the stat gain mechanic has not been given any thought at all since the decision to allow players to change secondary class.

I'm not really assuming that when the game goes live, players will build characters out with augments that are not from their secondary class.

More to the point, what I am trying to figure out is if our secondary class actually offers us *anything* at all besides a list of augments.

I'm sure when the game comes out, there will indeed be something - we just have no info on it as yet as far as I know.

Even if there are a bunch of passive abilities that are specific to each secondary class - that would be something.

Undead Canuck

It will also be a moot point for a while since they said that the secondary class choice comes at level 20. So you will have to get used to your primary first anyways.

Noaani

UndeadCanadianGamer wrote: »

It will also be a moot point for a while since they said that the secondary class choice comes at level 20. So you will have to get used to your primary first anyways.

I mean, may be - but that isn't really the point.

Undead Canuck

That was why I said 'for a while'. Hopefully we get more information before someone actually gets there and has to make a choice...

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