Feedback/Concern (Open Development/Transparency)

Hi! I’m just doing my part as a follower and a fan to give some feedback.
If you haven’t seen the most recent Dungeon Crawler Network From the Ashes podcast (titled: Winter Has Come) I definitely recommend it. They give some solid feedback on the BR, testing methods and current communication/transparency model. I 100% agree with them and would love to see you guys take their advice into account.
I’m a huge fan of Ashes of Creation, but I’m afraid that you’re making some questionable calls regarding the topics above.

The synopsis of the podcast is that Intrepid is sort of walking the line between transparency/open development and closed development. The live streams, while so appreciated, don't really offer much new information. Intrepid seems to only show stuff that they feel 100% good about showing and that's not transparent development. I understand that some aspects cannot be revealed because of proprietary technology, but there have got to be many other things that aren't quite finished, but available to be shown. The other option is for Intrepid to say that they do not have open development which would be totally fine and then they could show less as they have been, but without claiming that they uphold transparency. We still know close to no details about races and classes for example.

I am such a huge fan of Intrepid and I love the project you are working on. Ashes of Creation seems to be the MMO I have dreamt about my whole life. I'm a huge fan, but a little concerned. Thanks for all your hard work!

P.S. To be perfectly honest, I am saying this in hopes that you start giving us more information

However, if a more closed development approach is what you need then go right ahead. We'll wait. Just be honest with us so we can have correct expectations.

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Comments

Azathoth

What would be the required amount of information for the community to be in a majority opinion that the development is open/transparent?

Often showing more, as opposed to less, can be more hurtful than going closed. If they go closed, that gives them a reason to pace out any information slower or not at all.

I'm not sure doubling down on a definitive open versus closed status changes anything or benefits the fans.

VmanGman

Azathoth wrote: »

What would be the required amount of information for the community to be in a majority opinion that the development is open/transparent?

Often showing more, as opposed to less, can be more hurtful than going closed. If they go closed, that gives them a reason to pace out any information slower or not at all.

I'm not sure doubling down on a definitive open versus closed status changes anything or benefits the fans.

The communication right now is really not that open. Like I said, we know close to no details about races and classes. We're almost three years into development and we still know so little about such core concepts. The last meaningful piece of information was the 'Know Your Nodes: Economic Node Type' blogpost which was released on May 23rd. That's almost 6 months ago.

I'm not exactly sure what the required amount of information would be for them to really be considered open development. But it's definitely more than what it has been.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

We still know close to no details about races and classes for example.

Intrepid have said that they want players to have to figure things out when we actually get in to the game.

Things like race and class details seem like the kind of thing that should be left unknown until then.

Further, disclosing information on things like this isn't a case of open or closed development, game companies release that kind of information as teasers, nothing more.

In order for development to be transparent, Intrepid should be talking about what kind of things they are working on, and what they plan on working on next. There is absolutely no need within the context of transparent development to release any information on the game itself - only on the development process of it.

Edit to add: you should totally ignore anyone doing podcasts or similar about a game that has not yet released, without exception such people are nothing but hacks.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

We still know close to no details about races and classes for example.

Intrepid have said that they want players to have to figure things out when we actually get in to the game.

Things like race and class details seem like the kind of thing that should be left unknown until then.

Further, disclosing information on things like this isn't a case of open or closed development, game companies release that kind of information as teasers, nothing more.

In order for development to be transparent, Intrepid should be talking about what kind of things they are working on, and what they plan on working on next. There is absolutely no need within the context of transparent development to release any information on the game itself - only on the development process of it.

Edit to add: you should totally ignore anyone doing podcasts or similar about a game that has not yet released, without exception such people are nothing but hacks.

I completely disagree with you on multiple levels.

1. Class and race information is in no way information that should be left to be found out as you play the game. This kind of information is literally available at character creation. You need to know what to expect from your race and class choice. What Intrepid is referring to when they say they want players to figure out are things like lore or locations throughout the game. Not basic gameplay aspects such as race and class that you literally find out the very first moment you log into the game.

2. Many, if not most MMORPGs, release their class/race information ahead of time. I'll just give three other MMORPGs that are under development just like Ashes of Creation who have already released said information: Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, Crowfall, and Camelot Unchained. Again, this isn't information is saved for launch and Intrepid have stated that they will release more soon(TM) on races and classes, but it's been months and months of waiting for this basic and integral piece of information.

3. The Dungeon Crawler Network is an official partner content creator of Intrepid Studios. They have quality podcasts and are by no means "hacks". People like Stephen and Margaret themselves have said that they listen to The Dungeon Crawler Network. Also, I don't feel this way just because they said it. I've always felt this way. They just have a louder voice than I do and I decided to use this momentum and speak up in hopes that Intrepid hears us.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

I completely disagree with you on multiple levels.

I was going to respond point by point, but points 1 and 2 are essentially the same point.

Intrepid probably will release class and race info (on a basic concept level at least) before launch. However, this is done as a teaser - it is a marketing move to generate interest.

There is no point in generating this interest over a year before the game launches.

Such info is not a part of transparent development, it is a marketing asset.

Point 3, just because they listen to it (which I have doubts about) doesn't make it good.Anyone involved in any kind of work that has either critical responses to it or a community built up around a single product knows how important it is to be seen to be a part of that community, but how worthless that community actually is to the development of the product.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

I completely disagree with you on multiple levels.

I was going to respond point by point, but points 1 and 2 are essentially the same point.

Intrepid probably will release class and race info (on a basic concept level at least) before launch. However, this is done as a teaser - it is a marketing move to generate interest.

There is no point in generating this interest over a year before the game launches.

Such info is not a part of transparent development, it is a marketing asset.

Point 3, just because they listen to it (which I have doubts about) doesn't make it good.Anyone involved in any kind of work that has either critical responses to it or a community built up around a single product knows how important it is to be seen to be a part of that community, but how worthless that community actually is to the development of the product.

If race and class (basic information) are not a part of transparent development what is? And have Intrepid given us this transparent development information?

I really don't understand your response to point. What do you mean by "be seen to be a part of that community"? And how is that community worthless to the development of the product? Are you saying feedback is worthless? I don't think I understand.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

If race and class (basic information) are not a part of transparent development what is? And have Intrepid given us this transparent development information?

You are getting open development and product information mixed up.

Open development is them letting us know what they are working on. Are they putting a lot of time and effort in to siege mechanics right now? If the answer to that is either of the following;
1, Yes, they told us that they are.
2, No, they are working on ***

Then that is open development.

If the answer to the above question is "no, and we have no idea what they are working on", then that is not open development.

The key here is that information on the actual product is not information that needs to be released in order to maintain an open development philosophy.

As to feedback, yes, most of it is worthless.

It's worthless because most people don't have a clue. You have people that think they know what they are talking about that write up otherwise well written and thought out posts, but get the concept of open development totally wrong.

You get people that state outright they will be disappointed if a feature that is so far only found in products made by multi-hundred-BILLLION dollar companies isn't in the release of this MMO by a small startup.

You get people making suggestions about the game that directly conflict with core aspects that have been stated and worked upon.

Fortunately, Intrepid know most "feedback" is worthless. This is why you - nor any other poster - would be able to point to a single piece of feedback that anyone has given Intrepid that they have taken on board in a way that has changed any aspect of the game.

Everyone likes to think they know more than the average person on topics they enjoy, yet unless you are immersed on a given topic 40+ hours a week, you are at best a bystander. Even if you spend 40 hours a week on a similar product or project, you don't know the intricacies of any other specific product or project - only your own one.

Since the only people spending 40 hours a week on Ashes all happen to work for Intrepid (or are contracted to them in some form) that means the only people qualified to talk discuss and debate anything in that game at this point are the people that work for Intrepid.

No one else has a clue. Yourself and myself included.

And it is the fact that some people think they have more of a clue than the rest of us to the point where they run a podcast on the topic that tells the rest of us (those that think about it, at least) that anyone in a podcast about a game that is not yet released - assuming they do not work on the game in question - are all hacks.

Varkun

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

I completely disagree with you on multiple levels.

I was going to respond point by point, but points 1 and 2 are essentially the same point.

Intrepid probably will release class and race info (on a basic concept level at least) before launch. However, this is done as a teaser - it is a marketing move to generate interest.

There is no point in generating this interest over a year before the game launches.

Such info is not a part of transparent development, it is a marketing asset.

Point 3, just because they listen to it (which I have doubts about) doesn't make it good.Anyone involved in any kind of work that has either critical responses to it or a community built up around a single product knows how important it is to be seen to be a part of that community, but how worthless that community actually is to the development of the product.

As someone who does follow the DCN show and has observed Intrepid staff answering questions in the chat while the show is live. Yes Intrepid does indeed follow DCN along with many other content creators. I don't think Intrepid is as detached from its community as you seem to imply.
These are just my personal observations as someone who has witnessed Intrepids feedback. As for feedback from the community it needs to be put through a fairly hard filter before too much should be taken on board by Intrepid.

Noaani

Varkun wrote: »

I don't think Intrepid is as detached from its community as you seem to imply.

Oh, I'm not saying Intrepid is detached from the community at all. Quite the opposite in fact - they need to be seen to be a part of the community.

I am saying that Intrepid don't give a shit about what people that don't know anything about their game have to say about their game.

I guarantee there is more useful information come out of Intrepid during a DCN stream than there is from the hosts of said stream - which is about as blunt as I can make my point here.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

Varkun wrote: »

I don't think Intrepid is as detached from its community as you seem to imply.

Oh, I'm not saying Intrepid is detached from the community at all. Quite the opposite in fact - they need to be seen to be a part of the community.

I am saying that Intrepid don't give a shit about what people that don't know anything about their game have to say about their game.

I guarantee there is more useful information come out of Intrepid during a DCN stream than there is from the hosts of said stream - which is about as blunt as I can make my point here.

And my good sir you have answered your own dilemma and strengthened my point. If DCN, people who actively and passionately follow the development process of Ashes of Creation, don't know anything about the game, then it means that Intrepid does not have very good and transparent/open communication about their development. Mind you that some of those guys on that show have paid for the higher kickstarter packs that allow for special monthly Q&A sessions with the devs ($2500 + packs). So Intrepid should "give a shit" about their and our opinion. And we should be able to have an opinion about their development because it's supposed to be open.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

If race and class (basic information) are not a part of transparent development what is? And have Intrepid given us this transparent development information?

You are getting open development and product information mixed up.

Open development is them letting us know what they are working on. Are they putting a lot of time and effort in to siege mechanics right now? If the answer to that is either of the following;
1, Yes, they told us that they are.
2, No, they are working on ***

Then that is open development.

If the answer to the above question is "no, and we have no idea what they are working on", then that is not open development.

The key here is that information on the actual product is not information that needs to be released in order to maintain an open development philosophy.

As to feedback, yes, most of it is worthless.

It's worthless because most people don't have a clue. You have people that think they know what they are talking about that write up otherwise well written and thought out posts, but get the concept of open development totally wrong.

You get people that state outright they will be disappointed if a feature that is so far only found in products made by multi-hundred-BILLLION dollar companies isn't in the release of this MMO by a small startup.

You get people making suggestions about the game that directly conflict with core aspects that have been stated and worked upon.

Fortunately, Intrepid know most "feedback" is worthless. This is why you - nor any other poster - would be able to point to a single piece of feedback that anyone has given Intrepid that they have taken on board in a way that has changed any aspect of the game.

Everyone likes to think they know more than the average person on topics they enjoy, yet unless you are immersed on a given topic 40+ hours a week, you are at best a bystander. Even if you spend 40 hours a week on a similar product or project, you don't know the intricacies of any other specific product or project - only your own one.

Since the only people spending 40 hours a week on Ashes all happen to work for Intrepid (or are contracted to them in some form) that means the only people qualified to talk discuss and debate anything in that game at this point are the people that work for Intrepid.

No one else has a clue. Yourself and myself included.

And it is the fact that some people think they have more of a clue than the rest of us to the point where they run a podcast on the topic that tells the rest of us (those that think about it, at least) that anyone in a podcast about a game that is not yet released - assuming they do not work on the game in question - are all hacks.

False. Open development is not just them telling us what they're working. It's also showing us what they are working on. Intrepid stated that they want open development, but they barely release a little bit of information once a month during a short live stream. I'm sorry, but that is not open development. Most of their blog posts on the website are monthly cosmetics... The last meaningful piece of information was the 'Know Your Nodes: Economic Node Type' blogpost which was released on May 23rd. That's almost 6 months ago.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

And my good sir you have answered your own dilemma and strengthened my point. If DCN, people who actively and passionately follow the development process of Ashes of Creation, don't know anything about the game, then it means that Intrepid does not have very good and transparent/open communication about their development. Mind you that some of those guys on that show have paid for the higher kickstarter packs that allow for special monthly Q&A sessions with the devs ($2500 + packs). So Intrepid should "give a shit" about their and our opinion. And we should be able to have an opinion about their development because it's supposed to be open.

See, you're still not getting it.

Releasing information about the game =/= open development.

I'll try an analogy to see if it helps. We'll look at a car factory.

A car factory with "open development" is one where they will tell you the processes they go through to design and build a car - they may even let film crews in on occasion to film documentaries and such.

However, if such a factory is designing a new car, it is not a facet of open development for them to detail the spec's of the car until they are ready to release that information. That information is product information, not factory information.

To put this analogy to further use, people could buy this car and then give feedback that they want more horsepower. Thing is, these people are likely not aware that if the car had any more horsepower it would need significantly upgraded safety equipment which would increase the weight substantially, negating any potential gains from that increase in horsepower. Basically, the customer offering their feedback doesn't know what they are talking about.

You are welcome to have an opinion on what ever you want - anyone that spends any time on these forums would know full well that I do.

However, you having an opinion and you knowing what you are talking about are not the same thing.

Edit; $2,500 is literally less than 0.001% of the original expected development cost of Ashes. Do you know any company that would make any changes to any product for 0.001%?

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

And my good sir you have answered your own dilemma and strengthened my point. If DCN, people who actively and passionately follow the development process of Ashes of Creation, don't know anything about the game, then it means that Intrepid does not have very good and transparent/open communication about their development. Mind you that some of those guys on that show have paid for the higher kickstarter packs that allow for special monthly Q&A sessions with the devs ($2500 + packs). So Intrepid should "give a shit" about their and our opinion. And we should be able to have an opinion about their development because it's supposed to be open.

See, you're still not getting it.

Releasing information about the game =/= open development.

I'll try an analogy to see if it helps. We'll look at a car factory.

A car factory with "open development" is one where they will tell you the processes they go through to design and build a car - they may even let film crews in on occasion to film documentaries and such.

However, if such a factory is designing a new car, it is not a facet of open development for them to detail the spec's of the car until they are ready to release that information. That information is product information, not factory information.

To put this analogy to further use, people could buy this car and then give feedback that they want more horsepower. Thing is, these people are likely not aware that if the car had any more horsepower it would need significantly upgraded safety equipment which would increase the weight substantially, negating any potential gains from that increase in horsepower. Basically, the customer offering their feedback doesn't know what they are talking about.

You are welcome to have an opinion on what ever you want - anyone that spends any time on these forums would know full well that I do.

However, you having an opinion and you knowing what you are talking about are not the same thing.

Edit; $2,500 is literally less than 0.001% of the original expected development cost of Ashes. Do you know any company that would make any changes to any product for 0.001%?

I will copy paste my other response to you here also because you don't seem to understand me:

"Open development is not just them telling us what they're working. It's also showing us what they are working on. Intrepid stated that they want open development, but they barely release a little bit of information once a month during a short live stream. I'm sorry, but that is not open development. Most of their blog posts on the website are monthly cosmetics... The last meaningful piece of information was the 'Know Your Nodes: Economic Node Type' blogpost which was released on May 23rd. That's almost 6 months ago."

You and I seem to have different definitions for open development. I think yours is wrong and you think that mine is wrong. I'll restate it: just telling us what they're working and showing us what they're working is not open development. At least as far as MMORPGs go.

And I didn't mention the $2500 to show you that Intrepid should take Dungeon Crawler's Network opinion into account because they put that money towards the project. I was just letting you know that these people you say have no idea what's going on are supposed to have special monthly Q&A sessions with the developers.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

Open development is not just them telling us what they're working. It's also showing us what they are working on.

Just because this is what you think it means, doesn't mean that this is what it actually means. You don't get to go around making up your own meaning for terms and then being upset that others don't follow your meaning of things they say.

Telling us what they are working on absolutely is open development. Compare how much information we have on Ashes now - 12 to 24 months before launch - to the same time period of literally any other MMORPG. Like it or not, what we have here is open development.

Regardless of what you think open development means, one thing the two of us (and any sane person) can agree on is that open development doesn't mean Intrepid have to develop the thing that some random player wants to know more information about, just so that they have that information to tell that random player.

Class and race specifics won't be in development until after the combat system is fully developed. Even when we get in to Alpha 1 a lot of the abilities we will have to use will be place holder abilities. These things won't be finalized until near the end of beta 2 - just before release.

Azathoth

I still don't see the point.
People keep asking for more information. There was some indication they want information that may not be 100%. (See quote at end)

That seems counter intuitive to marketing and open development.
Why show a bunch of maybes? It makes them look like they don't have a good concept when it changes, gets scrapped, or otherwise goes against what most players expect (rightfully or not).

All this thread is asking for is partial prmises and more things to look at.

vmangman wrote: »

...Intrepid seems to only show stuff that they feel 100% good about showing and that's not transparent development. I understand that some aspects cannot be revealed because of proprietary technology, but there have got to be many other things that aren't quite finished, but available to be shown...

VmanGman

Azathoth wrote: »

I still don't see the point.
People keep asking for more information. There was some indication they want information that may not be 100%. (See quote at end)

That seems counter intuitive to marketing and open development.
Why show a bunch of maybes? It makes them look like they don't have a good concept when it changes, gets scrapped, or otherwise goes against what most players expect (rightfully or not).

All this thread is asking for is partial prmises and more things to look at.

vmangman wrote: »

...Intrepid seems to only show stuff that they feel 100% good about showing and that's not transparent development. I understand that some aspects cannot be revealed because of proprietary technology, but there have got to be many other things that aren't quite finished, but available to be shown...

Because that's what development is. A constant flow of content that is subject to change. So yes, open development means showing aspects of the game that could change. It's what development means.

Edit: Yes, I would rather have progress shown and know that it could change, rather than be left in the dark most of the time and only see the cream of the crop. Especially when open and transparent development was promised.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

So yes, open development means showing aspects of the game that could change.

They did that, people got upset.

Varkun

All any of us can do is provide constructive feedback to Intrepid, good/bad does not matter. IMO there is nothing we as a community can do that will change the vision Intrepid has and the product/game they will present to us come launch. Feedback may alter a few systems in minor ways but the core of the game and the systems surrounding it will not change. Well at least to my way of thinking.

The guys from DCN know no more or less that any other fan and we as fans only know what Intrepid has revealed to us thus far and that IMO is only a very bare bones look at what the potential systems might be.

noaani wrote: »

Varkun wrote: »

I don't think Intrepid is as detached from its community as you seem to imply.

I am saying that Intrepid don't give a shit about what people that don't know anything about their game have to say about their game.

I do agree with this statement and quite frankly its how it should be, don't listen to random nobodies. By the same token I wouldn't call all of the Ashes content creators random nobodies (some I would though as they are truly ill informed).

Noaani

Varkun wrote: »

IMO there is nothing we as a community can do that will change the vision Intrepid has and the product/game they will present to us come launch.

Indeed, and this is exactly as it should be.

Let the professionals (as in - people that get paid to do a job) do their job, and leave us armchair critics off yapping in a corner somewhere.

As soon as any company developing any product starts listening to critics, they end up with a product that makes no real sense.

Wandering Mist

I'm going to be very blunt here and say that the majority of players are extremely ignorant when it comes to games development. This makes fully transparent development all but impossible because even if Intrepid did want to share everything with us, most players wouldn't understand what is being said.

Do you honestly want to see every line of code that Intrepid have written out in the last month? Unless you are familiar with coding for unreal4 this information is useless to you.

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