How to do shields right

MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
Shields in games have historically been used by tanks/healers/defensive character builds. The reason for this, is that most top tier abilites for characters able to utilize a shield scale a lot better on two-handers/dual wielding instead of offensive shield abilites.

As a result, while you can use a shield as an offensive dps character, it is usually better to use other combinations instead.

In my opinion, this unnecessarily limits the potential variation in character builds. It also ruins the game for people who love using shields but also love to be offensive.

Shields have been used offensivly in real life. We have many examples for this, ranging from gladiators, some roman legions and duelists. If we take a modern example, a spear user will almost certanly decimate any sword user of any skill. But, give a shield to the sword user, and this gives the sword user tons of offensive potential, even tipping the odds in favor of the sword and shield user. (Watch sword/spear masters on youtube duel in real life to learn about why).

What should be done instead, is allow your character to be built in such a way that you can play with a shield offensivly if you want. Obiously, a two-handed user would have more raw power, a dual wielder would have more speed, but the shield user would have his own pros and cons.

My dream is to play an offensive shield using fighter/x combination. The strenghts of this kind of character build should be a combination of utlity, control and flexibility. Lacking the raw damage a 2H/Dual wield build has but compensating in defence and utility. It should obiously not be as tanky as a dedicated defensive tank build. A balance between offense and defence. It should be a middleground.

For this to work, there needs to be offensive abilites that are balanced and viable in comparison to the 2H/dual wield abilites. For this to be balanced, you would need to sacrifize the massive defence a tank has and the high damage of 2H/dual builds.

Some strenghts a build like this could have:
High counterattack damage (After you block/deflect a spell, deal more damage)
More control than a pure damage dealer (More slows/spell interupting potential)
More defensive capabilities than a 2H/Dual wield character (Extra defensive cooldowns/passives)
More tactical cooldowns (Instead of flat % dmg increases, have immune to slows, stund etc, reflect spells, reflect damage)

Some weaknesses a build like this could have
Less DPS potential than a 2H/dual wield build (Simply less damage)
Less Defensive potential than a tank (Simply less health/armor)
Less DPS cooldowns than a 2H/dual wield (No pure DPS cooldowns)
Less Defensive cooldowns than a tank (No immortality cds, or reduce damage taken by 70% cds for example)
Less utility than a tank (Less auras/supporting abilites for other teammates)


Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.
  • edited November 30
    On the one hand, the sword | shield duelists on youtube fight for the camera. This is not typically warrior-statisque. In real life, anyone can pick up a sword or shield or axe, but swing it about 3 times and you are fatigued already. Try going into a large battle with thousands of soldiers like that. After about 2 minutes you're dead tired. There is no fight here.
    Also, in order to use a sword or spear properly, you have to do it via the Spirit. And as for the shield being for defensive capabilities only - 'a sword and shield is better against a spear,' it depends on the wielder. Some can use greatswords | greataxes | spears with a shield but you need a feat called "Monkey Grip." But the cost is -2 to AB.
    d0ONbTY.jpg
    Heron Marked Blade
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Any class can use a shield.

    However, you’re wrong to say that historically shields have been used offensively. Shields have always been used defensively aside from the occasional shield slam.

    In a fight a shield user might win, but it’s not because they had better offensive capabilities than a dual wielder, two hander or a ranger...

    Don’t confuse winning a fight with having a strong offense. Shields win battles because of their defensive capabilities not their offensive ones (even though good defense can be leveraged into good offense)

    Bringing it back to Ashes of Creation, I don’t think that a shield user should be as effective offensively as someone who chooses a two handed or dual wield build. Unless of course the shield becomes merely a cosmetic choice, but I highly doubt Intrepid would do that.

    Shield users should definitely have more defensive capabilities which they can then use to win the fight, but they definitely shouldn’t be more offensively suited than a non shield user. It’s just not how it works.
  • IMO it's dangerous to tall about real life use of weapons in terms of how they relate to games.
    In games, weapons are always - by necessity - reduced to their most basic self.
    In an actual combat melee, a hammer would be used to dent plate armor which would reduce the movement options of the target. But the person with the hammer was rarely expected to deliver a killing blow.
    Almost all polearms are only suitable to be used in a well drilled formation, a pikeman by himself is an easy target due to how easy he is to flank.
    These things are all really hard to put in to a combat system, and I would suggest impossible to do unless the aim is to make an actual combat simulator.
    Rather, most games take the simple approach. Polearms are long, so you have melee with slightly longer range. Hammers are blunt, so you do crushing damage. Swords are sharp, so you do slashing damage. Greatswords are big, so they are alow but do a lot when thwy hit. Shields are barriers, so they block attacks.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.

    I agree. But how good it will be, is something that is 90% up to the developers. If they dont give us the tools to make shields good offensivly, they wont be.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    Darksaber wrote: »
    On the one hand, the sword | shield duelists on youtube fight for the camera. This is not typically warrior-statisque. In real life, anyone can pick up a sword or shield or axe, but swing it about 3 times and you are fatigued already. Try going into a large battle with thousands of soldiers like that. After about 2 minutes you're dead tired. There is no fight here.
    Also, in order to use a sword or spear properly, you have to do it via the Spirit. And as for the shield being for defensive capabilities only - 'a sword and shield is better against a spear,' it depends on the wielder. Some can use greatswords | greataxes | spears with a shield but you need a feat called "Monkey Grip." But the cost is -2 to AB.

    Indeed, romantically "It depends on the wielder" but in real life the story is different. An avarage spear user will destroy any sword user. There are many videos that record professional sword fighters against amateur spear users and the spear almost always wins (if the sword user does not get a shield). Hell, there is even one instance when an avarage spear user won over TWO good swordsman 2v1. If you can't see why, you have to study duel science.

    All I am asking for, is for the devs to give us players the option to use a shield competitivly. Without becoming a turtle tank. For this to happens, they need to give us the tools.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    vmangman wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield.

    However, you’re wrong to say that historically shields have been used offensively. Shields have always been used defensively aside from the occasional shield slam.

    In a fight a shield user might win, but it’s not because they had better offensive capabilities than a dual wielder, two hander or a ranger...

    Don’t confuse winning a fight with having a strong offense. Shields win battles because of their defensive capabilities not their offensive ones (even though good defense can be leveraged into good offense)

    Bringing it back to Ashes of Creation, I don’t think that a shield user should be as effective offensively as someone who chooses a two handed or dual wield build. Unless of course the shield becomes merely a cosmetic choice, but I highly doubt Intrepid would do that.

    Shield users should definitely have more defensive capabilities which they can then use to win the fight, but they definitely shouldn’t be more offensively suited than a non shield user. It’s just not how it works.

    The shield gives you the option to rush onto an opponent, keeping his weapon away, while still mashing him with your other weapon. This is how shield users beat two-handed users. Sure, this may be considered a "defensive" tactic. But it is a hella offensive one strategy.

    Bringing it back to ashes. If you read what I wrote I explained that a shield user should not be as offensive, nor as defensive as a 2H user/tank. It should be a middleground. What usually happens in MMO:s. Is that the shield sucks on all fronts for competitive combat.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    noaani wrote: »
    IMO it's dangerous to tall about real life use of weapons in terms of how they relate to games.
    In games, weapons are always - by necessity - reduced to their most basic self.
    In an actual combat melee, a hammer would be used to dent plate armor which would reduce the movement options of the target. But the person with the hammer was rarely expected to deliver a killing blow.
    Almost all polearms are only suitable to be used in a well drilled formation, a pikeman by himself is an easy target due to how easy he is to flank.
    These things are all really hard to put in to a combat system, and I would suggest impossible to do unless the aim is to make an actual combat simulator.
    Rather, most games take the simple approach. Polearms are long, so you have melee with slightly longer range. Hammers are blunt, so you do crushing damage. Swords are sharp, so you do slashing damage. Greatswords are big, so they are alow but do a lot when thwy hit. Shields are barriers, so they block attacks.

    I completly agree with you. The problem is that many MMO:s, limit the weapon variation too much. All the 2 handed weapons perform the same (Same damage, same abilities, same everything) only the looks matter. Look at wow for example. There is no difference between the different weapons. This means that the best weapon is simply the one with the highest damage nummer written on it. I dont want this for Ashes.

    I don't think there is a problem with Swords, hammers, and axes too have slight variations in stats and what they are good for. This does not mean the game is a combat simulation. A mace may have higher armor penetration, while the sword hits faster. This is just game balance.

    What I dont want, is that shields are exclusivly for tanks/healers. It is just unnecesary.
  • edited November 30
    I second this notion. Intrepid hopefully will address this issue soon.
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    Heron Marked Blade
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.
    I agree. But how good it will be, is something that is 90% up to the developers. If they don't give us the tools to make shields good offensively, they wont be.
    How good the player will be will be 75% up to the player. Player twitch skill will be one factor, but most important will be how the individual player chooses class, race, stat progression, augments, gear, weapon abilities and enchantments for their character(s).
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited November 30
    Dygz wrote: »
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.
    I agree. But how good it will be, is something that is 90% up to the developers. If they don't give us the tools to make shields good offensively, they wont be.
    How good the player will be will be 75% up to the player. Player twitch skill will be one factor, but most important will be how the individual player chooses class, race, stat progression, augments, gear, weapon abilities and enchantments for their character(s).

    I am 2400 rated in wow, I am beyond top 0.5% of the players playing my class in wow. I could not even beat a fairly new player with a shield. Because the game is not balanced to do it. If a shield user simply deals 25% of the damage other builds do, even when min-maxed, it can't perform good. If shields dont open up good abilities that are comparable to other builds, they wont funktion.

    The developers need to set the numbers logically and give tools that are effective. For example, locking every single good scaling skill behind a 2H/dual wield requirement will make it impossible to perform.
  • HeartbeatHeartbeat Member, Founder
    I see no reason why shields should offer offensive stats or bonuses apart from any sort of buff/enhancement you yourself are able to put on it after getting one, but at the same time wearing a shield shouldn't magically lower your offensive stats simply for wearing one. But having some skills only usable only with shields that are offensive in nature still makes sense, i.e something like a shield smash, medium/low dmg with a short stun or something of that nature.
  • Marzzo wrote: »
    Look at wow for example.
    I'd rather not, tbh.
    A lot of games with developers that have no clue (ie, WoW) group weapons together too broadly, for sure. There is no reason a two handed sword should behave the same as a two handed hammer - same goes or the one handed versions.
    The problem then becomes - how many weapon types is too many? It would be fairly easy to come up with 20+ weapon types, each with somewhat distinct properties. In most MMO's, you have to consider each weapon type you add as not just added confusion for your players, but also bloat on your loot tables - if you have 20 weapon types, that means itemizing for 20 weapons - and means players will only get a weapon suitable to them 1 time out of 20 that a weapon drops.
    Ashes may be able to do this a bit differently - since most (all?) weapons will be player made.

  • edited December 1
    Marzzo wrote: »
    I completly agree with you. The problem is that many MMO:s, limit the weapon variation too much. All the 2 handed weapons perform the same (Same damage, same abilities, same everything) only the looks matter. Look at wow for example. There is no difference between the different weapons. This means that the best weapon is simply the one with the highest damage nummer written on it. I dont want this for Ashes.
    Greatweapons do not do the same damage. The reason why you think so is because most MMO's wheel-and-deal damage without showing you the algorithm involved (which is highly complicated). A greatsword does a base damage of 2D6. A greataxe 1D12. A Falchion 1D10. A Katana 1D10. A Bastard sword 1D10. Crit for Greatsword is 19-20x2. For Greataxe it is 20x3. Falchion it is 18-20x2. Katana 19-20x2. Bastard Sword 19-20x2. When a Katana and a Bastard sword are wielded in both hands they do 1D10 + 50%. This does not apply to the other greatweapons because they cannot be wielded with one hand.
    This does not include Blademaster's swords. Essentially these are single-edged, slightly curved, two-handed swords that are Power-forged and wrought as ancient | legendary. In the hands of a true Blademaster, they do different damage(s) than if wielded by a non-Blademaster.
    Also, Unholy Swords, Black Blades, Shadow-forged, and Souldrinker weapons forged by the Shadow-forgers of Tharkan-dul and other dark entities. They do different damage depending upon the wielder as well. Usually these dark | unholy weapons require a ritual | and | or sacrifice to wield them properly (without them crumbling in the wielder's hands, or crumbling the wielder's hands - @Aragorn, son of Arathorn).
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    Heron Marked Blade
  • It would be interesting if they implemented different types of shields with differing stats.
    (I know thatthey wont but it would be pretty cool)
    Towershields - highest defense stats, gives a bonus to bash and charge effects, decreases movementspeed
    Roundshield - extra bash and charge effect, medium defense stats
    Buckler - extra parry/deflect effect instead of block, increase to dash effects

    Deflect negates damage, while block reduces damage.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Marzzo wrote: »
    I am 2400 rated in wow, I am beyond top 0.5% of the players playing my class in wow. I could not even beat a fairly new player with a shield. Because the game is not balanced to do it. If a shield user simply deals 25% of the damage other builds do, even when min-maxed, it can't perform good. If shields dont open up good abilities that are comparable to other builds, they wont funktion.

    The developers need to set the numbers logically and give tools that are effective. For example, locking every single good scaling skill behind a 2H/dual wield requirement will make it impossible to perform.
    WoW is not Ashes of Creation. WoW does not have augments and also does not have weapon abilities.
    I'm quite confident that a Guardian who augments Shield Bash with another Tank augment is not going to be dealing only 25% of damage other builds do. An Archwizard wielding a shield probably will not fare well compared to other builds - but they can give it a try if they want.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member
    edited December 1
    The excesive amount of stuns given to 2h and dual wield has made shields a non desirable playstyle.

    2h should be about burst
    Dual wield about strong dmg and mobility
    Shield about stuns, slows, hooks and great defense and low dmg sword swings.
  • Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.
    I agree. But how good it will be, is something that is 90% up to the developers. If they don't give us the tools to make shields good offensively, they wont be.
    How good the player will be will be 75% up to the player. Player twitch skill will be one factor, but most important will be how the individual player chooses class, race, stat progression, augments, gear, weapon abilities and enchantments for their character(s).

    I am 2400 rated in wow, I am beyond top 0.5% of the players playing my class in wow. I could not even beat a fairly new player with a shield. Because the game is not balanced to do it. If a shield user simply deals 25% of the damage other builds do, even when min-maxed, it can't perform good. If shields dont open up good abilities that are comparable to other builds, they wont funktion.

    The developers need to set the numbers logically and give tools that are effective. For example, locking every single good scaling skill behind a 2H/dual wield requirement will make it impossible to perform.

    Have you ever fought a good protection paladin as a mele? They just wont die, while wittling down yours...
    KkvMmA5.png
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Braver of Worlds
    Damokles wrote: »
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Any class can use a shield if they want to. How good they will be at it is something a player will have to test.
    I agree. But how good it will be, is something that is 90% up to the developers. If they don't give us the tools to make shields good offensively, they wont be.
    How good the player will be will be 75% up to the player. Player twitch skill will be one factor, but most important will be how the individual player chooses class, race, stat progression, augments, gear, weapon abilities and enchantments for their character(s).

    I am 2400 rated in wow, I am beyond top 0.5% of the players playing my class in wow. I could not even beat a fairly new player with a shield. Because the game is not balanced to do it. If a shield user simply deals 25% of the damage other builds do, even when min-maxed, it can't perform good. If shields dont open up good abilities that are comparable to other builds, they wont funktion.

    The developers need to set the numbers logically and give tools that are effective. For example, locking every single good scaling skill behind a 2H/dual wield requirement will make it impossible to perform.

    Have you ever fought a good protection paladin as a mele? They just wont die, while wittling down yours...

    It works, but it is not optimal.
  • IS choose to have 15 tanky classes ( the tank archetypes probably a bit more tanky)
    It mean there will be a lot of possibility to play a tank.

    The knight or the dreadnought will probably fit your expectations for the sword and shield play styles you seek.
    (But if you would like to seek top rank with a sword and shield go Conquerors Blade and take the great sword and shield it will fit you perfectly)

    I'm personally going on the shadow guardian or the nightshield and hope one of them will be a perfect personal body garde, because I'm not expecting the 14 none guardian to be able to protect a full group on there own ( or at least not the 7 none tank archetype )

    I will have shield for sure with maybe a dagger, I'll see what IS will propose me.
    If they give me the opportunity to stab a enemy and quickly come back to my DPS to protect him in some way I'll be fine with it .
  • poisonzpoisonz Member, Braver of Worlds
    to do shields right the character must hold it with his hand
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  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    poisonz wrote: »
    to do shields right the character must hold it with his hand

    Whats wrong with a tentacle.
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
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