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I hope it takes a year before we see the first final lv characters around.
Easy at first gradually harder and towards the end xp earning should be slow.

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

Bonus question: Should leveling speed should be hard-capped, so that players are somewhat tied to the average level of the community? For example, it's possible that the world won't have any higher-level content (making it nearly impossible to level beyond a certain point) until Nodes develop and cause new, tougher content to appear.

Generally speaking, I don't think this should be a thing in MMORPG's.

However, Ashes is an exception in this specific regard, and I think it not only fits in perfectly, but I think it would be kind of required.

My expected time frame before we see the first max level character is about a month.

Considering many games take only 2 or 3 days to reach max level, if it takes 30 before the more dedicated players reach it, that should be considered a long time.

Ravudha

I think the content should just be interesting and rewarding enough that, as we do it, we sometimes lose sight of chasing max level and realise we've been having fun adventuring.

How many hours to max level: over a month, even for hard core players

New Abilities: something new to look forward to every level

Features/content introduced at levels: flexible on this; I just want enough info before the game releases to plan my race and class

Guided levelling: only for the basics, then players can figure out advanced stuff

Capping speed-levelling: absolutely not - putting in extra effort to progress should never be punished or capped; players should still be able to progress with lower-level content, even if it takes a bit longer

PvP levelling: xp for caravans, less xp for arenas so people don't just play arenas all day

Low-level characters will be involved with nodes simply be doing stuff in the world. Low-level gathering and crafting will be a part of the economy where tiered crafting is concerned.

Damokles

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling

Max level: 50
Time invested: 45 days

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

Time invested: 45 days

Yeah, but is that 45 days for a player that spends an hour or two online a day, or someone that is spending 10+ hours a day?

Ravudha

noaani wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Time invested: 45 days

Yeah, but is that 45 days for a player that spends an hour or two online a day, or someone that is spending 10+ hours a day?

They didn't say. When Steven said around 45 days he followed up by quickly saying he didn't want to give a number.

I'm going to lean toward thinking they don't want anyone hitting 50 before ~45 days, so it accounts for hard core players. Still a wild guess at this stage.

Wandering Mist

The time it takes to level up isn't that important to me. The key to a good levelling system is pacing. If the levelling feels like a grind then the system has failed in my opinion. GW2 is a great example of a levelling system with good pacing. I've levelled multiple characters in that game and never once felt like I was grinding or wasting my time.

Aside from pacing, there are 3 core elements I look for in all RPG levelling systems:

1. Character progression - This kind of speaks for itself, you want your character to feel stronger or learn new skills as it levels up. Note it's not just about the numbers here, but how it feels to play.
2. Story progression - This can come in many forms but I like to see a bit of a narrative as I make my way through the levels.
3. Learning. This is the part where a lot of mmorpgs fail, in that they don't adequately teach you how to play the game. If you reached level cap and never once had to use your CC abilities, the game has failed. If you reached level cap and weren't told about key game mechanics that you'll need to know, the game has failed.

Jahlon

We already know that leveling to max level is going to take roughly 45 days from a direct quote.

Now the humorous part of that is is going to take 45 days of semi-regular play (4 hours a night) or is it going to take 45 DAYS aka 1,080 hours. That we do not know and make for some good discussion, like you've already seen in this thread.

We do know that if you aren't going to higher level nodes then leveling is going to take longer, as the higher level nodes will have the higher level ranges of creatures, quests, etc, but in the most recent live stream we also heard that location matters as well, in that a Node near the starting area won't have the same level diversity of creatures that a node in the middle of the map will have.

mcstackerson

I'm a big supporter of a lower level scaling (we getting less numbers). I'd like leveling our adventuring class to mostly give us more abilities (or skill points in this case) and augments. Only scaling i'd like to see is from the few attributes we get as we level. I want my motivation to level to be getting new abilities and filling out my characters ability rotation, not get max level so i can experience content

When you have high number scaling in a MMO, you are almost forcing players to sprint to max level so they can reach "end-game." Not only are you overly rewarded in power for leveling, any rewards given to you is trivialized and almost meaningless as you will probably replace it was a random quest item you get at a higher level. It's not really smart to stop leveling at 25 to focus on getting gear as i will replace any gear i get relatively quickly again once i start leveling.

It's always smarter to wait until i'm max level before progressing my character in other ways because of how much you get for just getting to that level.

In addition to what i said, when leveling has crazy scaling, low level characters can't contribute in the content high level characters are doing and high level characters don't get anything from doing low level content because you don't want them power farming it. I don't like because it means my low level friends can't join me in what i'm doing and I don't get anything for joining them. If there isn't level equalization, the content is so easy it becomes boring.

I'm at the point where i don't see why it needs to be this way, especially in ashes where very little things bind. If my group wants to drag a low level friend through harder content and give loot, then why does it matter. Why does there level need to gate them out of it? I could do the content without them and just give them the loot, why not let me bring them around. If you want to gate people out of story related content then cool, gate them out by where they are in the story quest, not their level.

Sorry, kind of passionate about this one. The industry went one direction with this and I've played so many, i don't why it was needed. One shoting low level content gets old fast... at least for me.

Ventharien

mcstackerson wrote: »

One shoting low level content gets old fast... at least for me.

I could agree with alot of your points but this is always an immersion shatterer for me. How is it i can be one of the heroes of the world, battled gods and demons, and jimmy apple theif back at the supersmile farms can fight me and i cant just paste him in a swing. Hopefully they find a happy medium of keeping progression impactful and feeling like you've made progress, and keeping lower level content longer lived.

mcstackerson

Ventharien wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

One shoting low level content gets old fast... at least for me.

I could agree with alot of your points but this is always an immersion shatterer for me. How is it i can be one of the heroes of the world, battled gods and demons, and jimmy apple theif back at the supersmile farms can fight me and i cant just paste him in a swing. Hopefully they find a happy medium of keeping progression impactful and feeling like you've made progress, and keeping lower level content longer lived.

But do we really need to be dragonball z characters?

Why do you need to be able to kill any life form under our level with one shot? If something stabs you, you should take some damage.

Your level should still give you a decent advantage over little jimmy apples as you have more and stronger abilities as well as having some stronger attributes. You should also have better gear then him so there shouldn't be much of a chance but if you let little jimmy come up and stab you, you still will take some damage. In one on one combat, little jimmy shouldn't stand a chance but if he brings a bunch of friends, then you might have to try and show off some of those fancy skills you have learned, instead of just breathing on them.

Ventharien

I mean it all comes down to how the game plays with your story. Most MMO's have you walk a road that at least sets you up as a renowned hero by the end, wielding and wearing powerful magical dodads. Should i take damage from a rusted dented blade scratching off dragon bone covered super magic metal? Rare is an MMO that says you get to be a rank and file grunt, maybe with some shiny tools and a few magic tricks, but a grunt in the end. In that first situation, That little thief could bring his whole village, and it shouldnt change anything but the pile at the end. In the second though i could see maybe taking lower threats more seriously in large numbers.

ataulfos

for what i remember steven said there will no one shoot in pvp so basically there will be chances for everyone in pvp, i think is more like realistic in some terms bc u will get high level and get new skills but that skills are tools of ur skill as a player to get around in the world and not like getting super overpower skills for kill everyone around that is under ur level, i think AoC will be more tactical in the pvp rewarding skills and not just the progresion itself like old mmorpg we see that with proper gear u can be a god after playing 5 years

Plateau

Jahlon wrote: »

We do know that if you aren't going to higher level nodes then leveling is going to take longer, as the higher level nodes will have the higher level ranges of creatures, quests, etc, but in the most recent live stream we also heard that location matters as well, in that a Node near the starting area won't have the same level diversity of creatures that a node in the middle of the map will have.

It sounds like hard-core players will want to go far away from the starting zones to find higher-level content to farm, so they can get ahead before nodes advance to the later stages. But perhaps they will still be limited by a lack of civilization in those areas. If the early node development happens primarily around starting zones, and everyone is dependent on them for gear, repairs, and quests to a degree, then it might still limit players who venture far away to find higher-level content in more remote areas of the map.

Plateau

No one has really said anything about augments or sub-classes. (In another thread someone said something about getting secondary classes at level 30, but I couldn't verify it). How early do y'all think builds should start branching off with augments and/or secondary classes. Personally I'd like for them both to be available pretty early (let's say level 20). But I think the player should have to hunt for them, doing quests or dungeons to unlock new skill paths.

Like I think skill points should be handed out every level. And by default you only have 2 or 3 options of what you put those points into (standard primary class skill trees). But you can get access to your secondary class and other skill trees by doing specific content. I like the idea that you can earn lots of different abilities and augments to play with from various quests/progression systems around the world. (I know that they want to give some augment rewards via node/guild/faction progression, so who's to say where else you might discover new augments.) So basically you can work to broaden you skills, by actually broadening the content you participate in.

But of course, all the vertical progression would be separate, so you don't even need to unlock your secondary class if you'd rather just get to max level ASAP and focus on one type of content, especially if you're happy with your primary class as-is. If you just want to be the strongest mage with the biggest fireballs, that's fine.

Damokles

leonerdo wrote: »

No one has really said anything about augments or sub-classes. (In another thread someone said something about getting secondary classes at level 30, but I couldn't verify it). How early do y'all think builds should start branching off with augments and/or secondary classes. Personally I'd like for them both to be available pretty early (let's say level 20). But I think the player should have to hunt for them, doing quests or dungeons to unlock new skill paths.

Like I think skill points should be handed out every level. And by default you only have 2 or 3 options of what you put those points into (standard primary class skill trees). But you can get access to your secondary class and other skill trees by doing specific content. I like the idea that you can earn lots of different abilities and augments to play with from various quests/progression systems around the world. (I know that they want to give some augment rewards via node/guild/faction progression, so who's to say where else you might discover new augments.) So basically you can work to broaden you skills, by actually broadening the content you participate in.

But of course, all the vertical progression would be separate, so you don't even need to unlock your secondary class if you'd rather just get to max level ASAP and focus on one type of content, especially if you're happy with your primary class as-is. If you just want to be the strongest mage with the biggest fireballs, that's fine.

There are a few things we DO know about augments ;D :
1. Each ability/spell will have around 7 possible augmentations (1Racial, 1religious, 1social and 4class)
2. Each class offers a different "school" of augments: Mage gives elemental damage and teleportation for example
3. By choosing to use the same class as a secondary, you can double down on the spell.
4. There are two ways of advancing spells/abilities: wide or tall
5. PLayers recieve skillpoints as they level (it is not possible to max all skilltrees)

Example:
Charge from the FIghter class turns into a smallscale teleport to the target if you go with a secondary mage class.

Amist

leonerdo wrote: »

No one has really said anything about augments or sub-classes. (In another thread someone said something about getting secondary classes at level 30, but I couldn't verify it). How early do y'all think builds should start branching off with augments and/or secondary classes. Personally I'd like for them both to be available pretty early (let's say level 20). But I think the player should have to hunt for them, doing quests or dungeons to unlock new skill paths.

Like I think skill points should be handed out every level. And by default you only have 2 or 3 options of what you put those points into (standard primary class skill trees). But you can get access to your secondary class and other skill trees by doing specific content. I like the idea that you can earn lots of different abilities and augments to play with from various quests/progression systems around the world. (I know that they want to give some augment rewards via node/guild/faction progression, so who's to say where else you might discover new augments.) So basically you can work to broaden you skills, by actually broadening the content you participate in.

But of course, all the vertical progression would be separate, so you don't even need to unlock your secondary class if you'd rather just get to max level ASAP and focus on one type of content, especially if you're happy with your primary class as-is. If you just want to be the strongest mage with the biggest fireballs, that's fine.

I actually wouldn't mind them being available late and relatively hard to obtain - level 30 or 40 maybe. I'd love for my class to feel different and stronger as I hit some of the higher levels and I think the sub class is going to provide some of that.

Plateau

Damokles wrote: »

There are a few things we DO know about augments ;D :
1. Each ability/spell will have around 7 possible augmentations (1Racial, 1religious, 1social and 4class)
...[snip]...

It's good to know that the have preliminary plans for all that. I guess I'm just hoping for one more category of augments that come from open-world content rather than character/faction progression. I'm sure it would be plenty fun just doing dungeons and quests for exp to progress your skills, but I like having those "get a new ability" quests after you reach the prerequisite level.

WizardTim

leonerdo wrote: »

I realized I have no idea what to expect in terms of leveling in Ashes of Creation. What do y'all think would be most appropriate?

How many hours should it take to get to max level? How quickly should you get new abilities? What features/content should be introduced at what levels? What (if anything) should be saved for max-level characters only? How much stronger should characters become as they level? How much should leveling be guided (by quests/tutorials/dungeons) vs. open-ended (whatever it is you like, as long as it gives XP)? How much, and in what ways, should PvP play a role in leveling? How should low-level characters be involved with Node systems and the economy?

Personally, I think the ideal answers to those questions are an extremely difficult mix of "let everyone participate in all kinds of content" and "everyone must grow as a character very slowly." But what do I know? Give me your opinions.

Bonus question: Should leveling speed should be hard-capped, so that players are somewhat tied to the average level of the community? For example, it's possible that the world won't have any higher-level content (making it nearly impossible to level beyond a certain point) until Nodes develop and cause new, tougher content to appear.

(Try to avoid the topic of artificial level scaling, since the Dev Discussion covered that already.)

I personally hope quests play very little role in getting experience. In fact, I'd say quests should be focused solely on guiding players to find the content they should be hunting to gain experience, and maybe rewarding players with fantastic loot. 100% of the experience should come from actually fighting monsters and, possibly, undertaking other aspects of that player's archetype (rogues gain experience for roguey things like stealth attacks and picking locks, etc.).

As for time, I don't really get the reason for making players work their way through 50+ levels just to get to "end game" content. Part of the weakness of "tall" advancement systems is that everyone wants the end game content more than they want the development content. There's no real point to it and it just gunks up the system and fosters elitist mentalities, and makes the game more and more difficult to enjoy for those starting later and later after release.

I love PvP, but only when I have a chance at winning and succeeding. Until I hit the cap level where all players are presumably equal, it's a shit show. The more sensitive the level difference, the worse PvP is in the early-mid games. Either players are too easy or you don't have a shot in hell of beating them one on one.

So "time to take to max level", in a pvp game, depends on whether it's a hardcore tall advancement system (EQ, DAoC, damn near every other MMO ever made because they're ALL based on D&D's progression systems). If the level differences are fairly minimal (a new ability, less then 5HP/Energy difference, etc), then it wouldn't be much of an issue to have a very slow progression where it takes 3-6 months to reach max level. However, if the differences between each level are significant, may as well make it rather quick (like, a 50 level tutorial quick), and get everyone into the fun content fast.

Most games seem to do one of two things once you hit "max level". Either they add a new advancement system that's more horizontal than vertical and allows you to expand your character further without ridiculously overpowering you (imo, how you should have advanced in the first place), or they just tack on more and more levels and allow the progression to grow wildly out of control.

I'd also like to add that you should gain experience in PvP for both killing and dying. Still tack on the exp debt for losing, but also gain a percentage of what your slayer gains. So if someone kills you and gets 1000exp, you get 500exp. If you set the rules so that you are worth more experience the more PvP kills you've scored, you are then awarded with more experience for surviving longer. Add an additional penalty to corruption where corrupt players do NOT get any experience when they're killed in PvP. Scale the experience gained from killing others according to the level differences as appropriate, give a bonus to that experience because they're players, and use the number of kills you've made (in a single life) as a multiplier for the experience someone gets for killing you.

So a player kills 5 people, gets roughly 1k per person, and is slain by someone. The person who kills them gains 1k x5 for a total of 5k from one kill. Each of the players the first guy killed gain 500xp for their trouble (failure is also a learning opportunity after all).

IMO though, the progression system should be a wide system. Something that draws influence from table top games like the older White Wolf games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: Apocalypse, etc.). Health never raises, a gun is as lethal to a Rank 5 Get of Fenris as it is to a Rank 1 Children of Gaia. However, your survive-ability advances because your experience can be used to raise things like your strength and stamina, as well as dexterity and skills like dodge that allow you to avoid damage.

A wide progression system solves many of the problems. It takes away the drive towards "end game" content, allows players to take on a plethora of advancements, is much slower and smoother in advancement, but still gives players a sense of growth and accomplishment.

My 2 cents.

Ravudha

wolfwood82 wrote: »

I personally hope quests play very little role in getting experience. In fact, I'd say quests should be focused solely on guiding players to find the content they should be hunting to gain experience, and maybe rewarding players with fantastic loot. 100% of the experience should come from actually fighting monsters and, possibly, undertaking other aspects of that player's archetype (rogues gain experience for roguey things like stealth attacks and picking locks, etc.).

I'd also like to see more xp allocated for performing class-specific tasks. Maybe not for using attacks, but specific to quests: clerics healing NPCs for more xp than other classes acquiring a healing potion, rangers getting more xp to track a fugitive than other classes asking 15 NPCs for clues, etc.

When the quest is fetch X or kill Y and the NPC tells you exactly what to do and how to do it, the xp should be low. When the quest is long/epic and involves the player exploring and/or figuring things out on their own, then I'd want it to give a good amount of xp. Really curious to see what kind of mix of quests we'll get.

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