I have played exactly one game that had a good raid game (and a total of many 10 - 12 that have poor raid games). Everything I talk about in terms of raiding are with the knowledge that a game can exist that has a good raid game like that one game I have played that had that good raid game.
What game??? And why are you trying not to mention it by name?
I'd guess it's because you don't want to nitpick about the specifics of one game, and would rather keep the discussion more holistic. But if you're going to hinge a bunch of your opinions and arguments on that one game, then we kinda need to know what it is.
I have played exactly one game that had a good raid game (and a total of many 10 - 12 that have poor raid games). Everything I talk about in terms of raiding are with the knowledge that a game can exist that has a good raid game like that one game I have played that had that good raid game.
What game??? And why are you trying not to mention it by name?
I'd guess it's because you don't want to nitpick about the specifics of one game, and would rather keep the discussion more holistic. But if you're going to hinge a bunch of your opinions and arguments on that one game, then we kinda need to know what it is.
EQ2.
But yeah, in this conversation, it's more about the fact that these things have been done and can be built and improved upon rather than where they were done.
It's also worth pointing out that I wouldn't want EQ2 copied verbatim. It got a good amount right, but also got a lot wrong. In the same way a game should look to Archeage, take the good things it had (some aspects of the crafting system, the farming system, naval combat), and ignore the bad aspects (other aspects of the crafting system, P2W, etc), the same could be done with EQ2.
Ideal place to put a mentoring program is in dungeons and open world cause that is were they are going to be at one time or another.
Suppose there is a system to help players experience the content:
Raid group A kills a boss without the mentoring system.
Raid group B kills the same boss using the mentoring system.
Like everything else, the rewards for raids should match the risk. Group A accepts more risk by learning the fight without guided assistance. So how would you handle rewards? - would you have a less valuable loot table for group B?
Well the mentoring program would be in dungeouns and in open world. Think just about every one gets geared for raids in dungeouns. Unless toon is going not do dungeouns and get all gear through professions. So will Group A does exist it is not exist in a high enough number for it to be an issue. Thinking almost all people that play MMOs do dungeouns. So while there is a group A (people that play MMOs that do not do dungeouns but go straight to raids) that number is so small that group A does not matter.
In other words almost all the people are going to be in group B so....
Does anyone know of any one that plays MMOs but does not do dungeouns?
Ideal place to put a mentoring program is in dungeons and open world cause that is were they are going to be at one time or another.
Suppose there is a system to help players experience the content:
Raid group A kills a boss without the mentoring system.
Raid group B kills the same boss using the mentoring system.
Like everything else, the rewards for raids should match the risk. Group A accepts more risk by learning the fight without guided assistance. So how would you handle rewards? - would you have a less valuable loot table for group B?
Well the mentoring program would be in dungeouns and in open world. Think just about every one gets geared for raids in dungeouns. Unless toon is going not do dungeouns and get all gear through professions. So will Group A does exist it is not exist in a high enough number for it to be an issue. Thinking almost all people that play MMOs do dungeouns. So while there is a group A (people that play MMOs that do not do dungeouns but go straight to raids) that number is so small that group A does not matter.
In other words almost all the people are going to be in group B so....
Does anyone know of any one that plays MMOs but does not do dungeouns?
Ok, then just replace the word 'raids' with 'dungeons' in my post.
Group A completes the dungeon with no help from the mentoring program.
Group B completes the dungeon by getting help from the mentoring program.
Should group B get the same rewards / boss drops as group A? It's an open question I'm thinking about.
Well see mentoring program will be integrated into dungeouns so player does not have a choice dungeouns are just more raid like so Every one will be in group B and not Group A
Well see mentoring program will be integrated into dungeouns so player does not have a choice dungeouns are just more raid like so Every one will be in group B and not Group A
So you want hand holding on all content, all the time.
Thing is, this still wont work.
I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop.
The only way to get players that currently want to stop with the challenging aspects of the game half way through group content is to make all content easier.
Then all you are doing is removing challenging content for people that want that challenge.
You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable.
All a game developer can do is offer players a variety of content with different challenge levels, and leave them to do the parts of it they are happy with.
Those that want to move up to the next challenge level will do so, those that don't, won't. No assistance system will ever change that fact, all it could do is shift where that line is.
The as long as the content has a gradual increase in difficulty, the only thing stopping people from raiding is finding a guild that raids at a time that suits them.
Not sure what you are talking about this particular idea is not hand holding. Just non lethal raid mechanics to mobs.
Why would it not work?. One thing that could get you raid ready is Timed challenged dungeouns. Cause since competing against other players every thing is down to the wire.. But in WoW those challenge dungeouns are harder than raids so even less people do them.
You make a lot of statements that are redundant that sound kind of related to the topic but are not. Like
You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable
So you cannot make the content both easy and hard at the same time?? Is that right??
Well you are right. But seeing as I am talking about non leathal raid mechanics not anythign hard then not point in making comparison. Not to sure were the hard part in that is.
Not sure were you got the idea that I was tryintgto make a dungeound easy ads hard at the same time.
Just trying to say that dungeouns could be used as a tool to get people ready for raids. All it would take is the non lethal raid mechanics and a tracker that told you how many times you avoided damage mechanics.
Not sure what is hard about that.
Another thing you said is
I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop
Well been making all this posts under the premise normal non-competative raiding is not a challenge just need to learn how.
You would agree that normal raiding with like 3 or 4 wipes is pretty much for every body right? if they want to and have the time. Thing is I do not think people know how easy raiding is just matter of putting forth a little effort.
Normal non-competative raiding is moderate skill at best so do not were the hard part in that is.
Just to be clear timed and dps competitions against other players now that pretty challenging. But not what I am talking about.
Not sure were you got the idea that I was tryintgto make a dungeound easy ads hard at the same time.
I think the point is while your mentor mechanics can help one group of players, there is another group/type of players who want dungeons to be hard and don't want hand-holding mechanics that make them easier.
So, basically, the mentoring program doesn't accommodate all players who want to do dungeons (people who want dungeons to be easier and other people who want them to be hard). That's kind of why I assumed it would be an option, like a dungeon mode players could choose.
EDIT: after reading @Wandering Mist post below - I should've specified: when I say hand-holding, I mean things like the tracker that gives you extra information.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not sure what you are talking about this particular idea is not hand holding. Just non lethal raid mechanics to mobs.
Why would it not work?. One thing that could get you raid ready is Timed challenged dungeouns. Cause since competing against other players every thing is down to the wire.. But in WoW those challenge dungeouns are harder than raids so even less people do them.
I'm going to go back to your OP on this where you gave some examples of what you'd like to see in dungeons:
As far as dungeouns are concerned simple non lethal raid mechinics could be added. Things like slime puddles that slow you. Vents that pour out venemous gas but do not kill you. Could even have little power ups like mushrooms that heal a little bit. Even something as simple as a rock that you cannot walk over but small enough to jump over. Just little things that you put in the environment to make people pay attention. The opposite of this is going through the entire dungeoun with nothing of interest but the mobs and the bosses.
First off, a lot of mmorpgs have these sorts of mechanics in their levelling dungeons already and they don't make people better raiders at end-game.Second, when it comes to mechanics like this they have to be implemented smartly. For example, slime puddles that slow you are only effective if there are other mechanics that encourage you to move. If you can stand in the slime puddles with no consequence then what's the point in having the mechanic in the first place. The same goes for rocks that you have to jump over. If the fight doesn't force you to move, these rocks are meaningless.
The same thing applies to vents that pour out venemous gas that damages you. While levelling up depending on the gear and levels of the players, you could ignore that damage. If players can ignore or outheal the damage then chances are they won't learn to avoid it.
Do fewer people do timed challenge dungeons because they are harder than raids or just because they don't like timed challenge runs? I can only speak for myself here but I really don't like rushing through dungeons which is why I never went very high with M+ dungeons in WoW.
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PlateauMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think we can all agree that there should be multiple levels of difficulty to raiding.
And I think we can all agree that games should offer challenges in a straightforward, self-teaching way. The environment, leveling experience, beginner dungeons, and easy-mode raids should all be designed to teach players how to beat the content they are currently doing. I'm pretty sure that's a pillar of good game design in every genre.
And only once you reach and willingly opt into hard-core content should there be any difficult puzzles to figure out.
All of this is basically standard in themepark, PvE-focused MMOs. I hope y'all aren't actually trying to debate on those points. By the way, LFR is exactly what you're asking for @consultant. It's easy-mode raids, designed to get more people into raiding and show them the basic mechanics (and story) with minimal other commitments or difficulty. FFXIV also has this in the form of Normal trials/raids and Alliance (24-man) raids, which are semi-hard, but extremely forgiving (newbies might die, but deaths usually don't cause a wipe).
The only thing players might need that does not already exist in MMOs is a way to bridge the gap between zero-communication dungeons and raids that require teamwork/co-operation. Typically that bridge is provided by community-made guides, which teach everyone the best strategies ahead of time. So players just have to learn their role/job and find other people who have read the same guide and are on the same page. In effect, the guide acts as a leader and tells everyone what to do, so that players don't have to coordinate and develop teamwork.
Players who are actually interested in teamwork and communication will probably have to find a static raid group to befriend and commit to (which is difficult on it's own). Or they have to find a PUG with a good mentor/teacher.
If you think MMOs need to provide more help to get more people to try raiding, then this is the only area they could improve on: connecting players with other like-minded players, and teaching them how to communicate. Or telling them upfront that they should just look up and follow a guide.
If you think MMOs need to provide more help to get more people to try raiding, then this is the only area they could improve on: connecting players with other like-minded players, and teaching them how to communicate.
I totally agree that this is the only area that developers could improve on, but I also kind of have the opinion that this is best served by other players performing this role, rather than the developers trying to do it.
This is why it is where I spend a lot of my in game time outside of guild raids and events. I often join pick up groups on alts looking for players that may be interested in raiding, and I often run pick up raids if there is content that is suitable to do that on.
Sometimes these people end up being a good fit for the guild I am in, and we recruit them and then build them up and teach them the skills needed for raiding at the level we are at. Other times, the people I see that want to raid are a better fit for another guild, in which case I point them to the guild I think they would be a good fit in, and put in a good word with any of the leadership of that guild that I have contact with.
The thing is, raiders know that if you bring in a player that is new to raiding, you have to put some work in to them. Due to the nature of raiding, this means that you have to divert an entire raid nights worth of effort at a lower challenge (and thus reward) of content, in order to teach these new raiders some skills that those encounters teach. This is why some guilds outright refuse to take on players without existing raid experience - and I don't personally begrudge those players.
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Perhaps one way to make it work could be a guild recruitment system similar to Archeage. Guilds that are looking for members for raiding can advertise that fact, and can also state whether they want experience or are happy training the right people up.
Think I have to spell things out for you guys. Hand holding mentoring goes something like intos that have pop up messages that tell you what to do. Very similar to the intro level difficulty in League of Legends. Or if you had a sceneria with vioce overs telling you what to do.
Some of my other ideas could be construed as hand holding like the one about the target dummy doling out raid mechanics or the one about the pet dog barking at the toon that is standing in the fire. See how that could be called hand holding but not something that is integrated inot the game itself.
As far as tracking progess it is not any different than tracking your progress at the gym or. Company having meetings and setting goals. So it is already effective in real live. obviously it is not going to work for every one but should work for lots of people. Keeping track of progress is already working in sports, in businesses in personal lives but you guys say it will not work in video games.
I think you have to learn to use the quote function.
It makes it easier to understand who you are talking to, and makes it much, much easier to try and backtrack a conversation to understand what you are referring to from previous posts.
Even if you delete all of the text from a quote other than the one part you are replying to, the rest of us can still click on that link to jump right back to that post, making it easier (arguably; making it possible) to follow conversations with you.
At this point, I have no idea what you are talking about, and backtracking through this thread where you have not quoted anyone is simply too much effort.
Please quote your own post where you detail this mentor system you think isn't hand holding (note; the idea of mentoring is to hold peoples hand while they get through a thing, so I don't think this will go well regardless).
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All of this is basically standard in themepark, PvE-focused MMOs. I hope y'all aren't actually trying to debate on those points. By the way, LFR is exactly what you're asking for @consultant. It's easy-mode raids, designed to get more people into raiding and show them the basic mechanics (and story) with minimal other commitments or difficulty. FFXIV also has this in the form of Normal trials/raids and Alliance (24-man) raids, which are semi-hard, but extremely forgiving (newbies might die, but deaths usually don't cause a wipe).
You know, WoW actually has a very smooth difficulty of progression set up:
LFR -> Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic.
Their dungeons have a similar progression system available.
The problem is it is ruined by the gearing system. The gear you can get from open world daily quests and crafting is usually far better than any gear dropped in LFR or Normal raids. This means if a player wants to actually see some character progression they have to go straight into Heroic raids, and for someone who has never raided before this can be a death sentence. This also contributes to the issue that players are so used to be overgeared for content that when they go into a heroic raid where they are undergeared, they can't handle it.
Players will typically do content that offers them rewards, even if it means doing content that they aren't ready for. Just because your character is strong enough to do the raid doesn't mean you, the player, are strong enough.
The only thing players might need that does not already exist in MMOs is a way to bridge the gap between zero-communication dungeons and raids that require teamwork/co-operation. Typically that bridge is provided by community-made guides, which teach everyone the best strategies ahead of time. So players just have to learn their role/job and find other people who have read the same guide and are on the same page. In effect, the guide acts as a leader and tells everyone what to do, so that players don't have to coordinate and develop teamwork.
I personally would leave this with the community. In every game I've ever played it is always the players (not the devs) who decide what language to use. The short-hand, the abbreviations, the standard communication lingo, these are all devised by the players. It's also common for individual raid teams to come up with their own phrases and short-hand for communicating that is specific to them. I remember watching one of Preach's videos where he mentioned in a raid that he was "going to China", which meant he was moving far away from the raid group during the fight. I had never heard that phrase before but that is what his raid team says in those situations.
Comments
What game??? And why are you trying not to mention it by name?
I'd guess it's because you don't want to nitpick about the specifics of one game, and would rather keep the discussion more holistic. But if you're going to hinge a bunch of your opinions and arguments on that one game, then we kinda need to know what it is.
EQ2.
But yeah, in this conversation, it's more about the fact that these things have been done and can be built and improved upon rather than where they were done.
It's also worth pointing out that I wouldn't want EQ2 copied verbatim. It got a good amount right, but also got a lot wrong. In the same way a game should look to Archeage, take the good things it had (some aspects of the crafting system, the farming system, naval combat), and ignore the bad aspects (other aspects of the crafting system, P2W, etc), the same could be done with EQ2.
Well the mentoring program would be in dungeouns and in open world. Think just about every one gets geared for raids in dungeouns. Unless toon is going not do dungeouns and get all gear through professions. So will Group A does exist it is not exist in a high enough number for it to be an issue. Thinking almost all people that play MMOs do dungeouns. So while there is a group A (people that play MMOs that do not do dungeouns but go straight to raids) that number is so small that group A does not matter.
In other words almost all the people are going to be in group B so....
Does anyone know of any one that plays MMOs but does not do dungeouns?
Ok, then just replace the word 'raids' with 'dungeons' in my post.
Group A completes the dungeon with no help from the mentoring program.
Group B completes the dungeon by getting help from the mentoring program.
Should group B get the same rewards / boss drops as group A? It's an open question I'm thinking about.
So you want hand holding on all content, all the time.
Thing is, this still wont work.
I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop.
The only way to get players that currently want to stop with the challenging aspects of the game half way through group content is to make all content easier.
Then all you are doing is removing challenging content for people that want that challenge.
You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable.
All a game developer can do is offer players a variety of content with different challenge levels, and leave them to do the parts of it they are happy with.
Those that want to move up to the next challenge level will do so, those that don't, won't. No assistance system will ever change that fact, all it could do is shift where that line is.
The as long as the content has a gradual increase in difficulty, the only thing stopping people from raiding is finding a guild that raids at a time that suits them.
Why would it not work?. One thing that could get you raid ready is Timed challenged dungeouns. Cause since competing against other players every thing is down to the wire.. But in WoW those challenge dungeouns are harder than raids so even less people do them.
You make a lot of statements that are redundant that sound kind of related to the topic but are not. Like
You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable
So you cannot make the content both easy and hard at the same time?? Is that right??
Well you are right. But seeing as I am talking about non leathal raid mechanics not anythign hard then not point in making comparison. Not to sure were the hard part in that is.
Not sure were you got the idea that I was tryintgto make a dungeound easy ads hard at the same time.
Just trying to say that dungeouns could be used as a tool to get people ready for raids. All it would take is the non lethal raid mechanics and a tracker that told you how many times you avoided damage mechanics.
Not sure what is hard about that.
Another thing you said is
I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop
Well been making all this posts under the premise normal non-competative raiding is not a challenge just need to learn how.
You would agree that normal raiding with like 3 or 4 wipes is pretty much for every body right? if they want to and have the time. Thing is I do not think people know how easy raiding is just matter of putting forth a little effort.
Normal non-competative raiding is moderate skill at best so do not were the hard part in that is.
Just to be clear timed and dps competitions against other players now that pretty challenging. But not what I am talking about.
I think the point is while your mentor mechanics can help one group of players, there is another group/type of players who want dungeons to be hard and don't want hand-holding mechanics that make them easier.
So, basically, the mentoring program doesn't accommodate all players who want to do dungeons (people who want dungeons to be easier and other people who want them to be hard). That's kind of why I assumed it would be an option, like a dungeon mode players could choose.
EDIT: after reading @Wandering Mist post below - I should've specified: when I say hand-holding, I mean things like the tracker that gives you extra information.
I'm going to go back to your OP on this where you gave some examples of what you'd like to see in dungeons:
First off, a lot of mmorpgs have these sorts of mechanics in their levelling dungeons already and they don't make people better raiders at end-game.Second, when it comes to mechanics like this they have to be implemented smartly. For example, slime puddles that slow you are only effective if there are other mechanics that encourage you to move. If you can stand in the slime puddles with no consequence then what's the point in having the mechanic in the first place. The same goes for rocks that you have to jump over. If the fight doesn't force you to move, these rocks are meaningless.
The same thing applies to vents that pour out venemous gas that damages you. While levelling up depending on the gear and levels of the players, you could ignore that damage. If players can ignore or outheal the damage then chances are they won't learn to avoid it.
Do fewer people do timed challenge dungeons because they are harder than raids or just because they don't like timed challenge runs? I can only speak for myself here but I really don't like rushing through dungeons which is why I never went very high with M+ dungeons in WoW.
And I think we can all agree that games should offer challenges in a straightforward, self-teaching way. The environment, leveling experience, beginner dungeons, and easy-mode raids should all be designed to teach players how to beat the content they are currently doing. I'm pretty sure that's a pillar of good game design in every genre.
And only once you reach and willingly opt into hard-core content should there be any difficult puzzles to figure out.
All of this is basically standard in themepark, PvE-focused MMOs. I hope y'all aren't actually trying to debate on those points. By the way, LFR is exactly what you're asking for @consultant. It's easy-mode raids, designed to get more people into raiding and show them the basic mechanics (and story) with minimal other commitments or difficulty. FFXIV also has this in the form of Normal trials/raids and Alliance (24-man) raids, which are semi-hard, but extremely forgiving (newbies might die, but deaths usually don't cause a wipe).
The only thing players might need that does not already exist in MMOs is a way to bridge the gap between zero-communication dungeons and raids that require teamwork/co-operation. Typically that bridge is provided by community-made guides, which teach everyone the best strategies ahead of time. So players just have to learn their role/job and find other people who have read the same guide and are on the same page. In effect, the guide acts as a leader and tells everyone what to do, so that players don't have to coordinate and develop teamwork.
Players who are actually interested in teamwork and communication will probably have to find a static raid group to befriend and commit to (which is difficult on it's own). Or they have to find a PUG with a good mentor/teacher.
If you think MMOs need to provide more help to get more people to try raiding, then this is the only area they could improve on: connecting players with other like-minded players, and teaching them how to communicate. Or telling them upfront that they should just look up and follow a guide.
This is why it is where I spend a lot of my in game time outside of guild raids and events. I often join pick up groups on alts looking for players that may be interested in raiding, and I often run pick up raids if there is content that is suitable to do that on.
Sometimes these people end up being a good fit for the guild I am in, and we recruit them and then build them up and teach them the skills needed for raiding at the level we are at. Other times, the people I see that want to raid are a better fit for another guild, in which case I point them to the guild I think they would be a good fit in, and put in a good word with any of the leadership of that guild that I have contact with.
The thing is, raiders know that if you bring in a player that is new to raiding, you have to put some work in to them. Due to the nature of raiding, this means that you have to divert an entire raid nights worth of effort at a lower challenge (and thus reward) of content, in order to teach these new raiders some skills that those encounters teach. This is why some guilds outright refuse to take on players without existing raid experience - and I don't personally begrudge those players.
---
Perhaps one way to make it work could be a guild recruitment system similar to Archeage. Guilds that are looking for members for raiding can advertise that fact, and can also state whether they want experience or are happy training the right people up.
Some of my other ideas could be construed as hand holding like the one about the target dummy doling out raid mechanics or the one about the pet dog barking at the toon that is standing in the fire. See how that could be called hand holding but not something that is integrated inot the game itself.
As far as tracking progess it is not any different than tracking your progress at the gym or. Company having meetings and setting goals. So it is already effective in real live. obviously it is not going to work for every one but should work for lots of people. Keeping track of progress is already working in sports, in businesses in personal lives but you guys say it will not work in video games.
I think you have to learn to use the quote function.
It makes it easier to understand who you are talking to, and makes it much, much easier to try and backtrack a conversation to understand what you are referring to from previous posts.
Even if you delete all of the text from a quote other than the one part you are replying to, the rest of us can still click on that link to jump right back to that post, making it easier (arguably; making it possible) to follow conversations with you.
At this point, I have no idea what you are talking about, and backtracking through this thread where you have not quoted anyone is simply too much effort.
Please quote your own post where you detail this mentor system you think isn't hand holding (note; the idea of mentoring is to hold peoples hand while they get through a thing, so I don't think this will go well regardless).
You know, WoW actually has a very smooth difficulty of progression set up:
LFR -> Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic.
Their dungeons have a similar progression system available.
The problem is it is ruined by the gearing system. The gear you can get from open world daily quests and crafting is usually far better than any gear dropped in LFR or Normal raids. This means if a player wants to actually see some character progression they have to go straight into Heroic raids, and for someone who has never raided before this can be a death sentence. This also contributes to the issue that players are so used to be overgeared for content that when they go into a heroic raid where they are undergeared, they can't handle it.
Players will typically do content that offers them rewards, even if it means doing content that they aren't ready for. Just because your character is strong enough to do the raid doesn't mean you, the player, are strong enough.
I personally would leave this with the community. In every game I've ever played it is always the players (not the devs) who decide what language to use. The short-hand, the abbreviations, the standard communication lingo, these are all devised by the players. It's also common for individual raid teams to come up with their own phrases and short-hand for communicating that is specific to them. I remember watching one of Preach's videos where he mentioned in a raid that he was "going to China", which meant he was moving far away from the raid group during the fight. I had never heard that phrase before but that is what his raid team says in those situations.