Offensive and Defensive Targets

I posted about this about 3 years ago. But, after seeing the pre-alpha footage. I think this really needs a revisit. Quoting my original post here:

"I don't know how many of you played Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. But, despite it's many flaws. This is one thing that it really had going for it.

You could have both an offensive target, which your attacks and debuffs would go to. And, a defensive target. Where your heals and buffs would go to. At the same time!

This in turn made healing a hell of a lot more fun and interesting, as you could attack the enemies and heal your tank without constantly switching targets. This made healers an essential part in not only keeping people alive. But, being involved in setting up the DPS combo's and debuffs against enemy targets.

It also gave us the Bloodmage and Disciple classes. Which were some of the coolest healing classes that I've seen. This class didn't have much in the way of straight heals. They focused on leeches. They had to damage the mobs to leech health from it and transfer it to their defensive targets. The Bloodmage was, obviously, a mage. Specializing in magical ranged damage. While, the disciple was more like a healing monk. That fought and healed with melee attacks. Kind of like a healing monk. Instead of mana; they built up a different resource called Jin.

These were extremely innovative classes that you simply don't see these days. And, I believe that's mainly because of the lack of the lack of the offensive/defensive target mechanic. It made for some awesome classes that kept a broken game alive for much longer than it deserved to be."

During the live stream, Margaret was only really able to target the other players during the dragon battle. She couldn't see what the dragon's health was at, or what it was casting. If you are able to target both a friendly and an enemy, you can see both. It makes for much more engaging fights and less frantically cycling between targets. You still have to target different friendly targets during group play, but at least you can have an enemy target selected to pop the occasional attack. Just to be clear, you could also have yourself set as a defensive target. Really helpful for a paladin class for instance.

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Comments

Noaani

Just because it isn't in yet, doesn't mean it won't be in by release.

There is still a LOT of development left to be done.

Drask

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

Wandering Mist

Drask wrote: »

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

I wouldn't say that. Most top end healers I know use mouseover macros so they never actually need to target their allies. As long as we have that functionality (which is far more useful in my opinion) we shouldn't need to have separate offensive and defensive targets.

Drask

A mouseover macro doesn't really let you direct a health leech ability though, does it? Just to be clear, an ability that damages the enemy and heals a specific ally. So, it doesn't just serve a purpose for direct heals.

It was especially handy when tanking as well. I'd set my defensive target on the highest dps player in a raid, and could pop an intervention ability if by some chance I lost hate at an instant.

To those that say that this would make the game too easy. These systems were implemented in Vanguard, which had harsh death penalties and was particularly difficult.

Noaani

Drask wrote: »

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

A lot of the developers come from games that have dual targets. They don't need to try it, they've made it.

Nagash

skearnz wrote: »

i remember in warhammer age of reckoning classes that did specific things for off-def targets;
shamans/high mages were able to attack a target and heal their defensive targets through that spells damage.
or other classes that could bestow little buffs to the defensive targets while doing damage with that ability that causes that little buff^^
....maybe thats how [class here]/bard works:O

thought i'd share that:D

R.I.P age of reckoning PvP

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

skearnz wrote: »

i remember in warhammer age of reckoning classes that did specific things for off-def targets;
shamans/high mages were able to attack a target and heal their defensive targets through that spells damage.
or other classes that could bestow little buffs to the defensive targets while doing damage with that ability that causes that little buff^^
....maybe thats how [class here]/bard works:O

thought i'd share that:D

R.I.P age of reckoning PvP

There is a Warhammer private server, which is really popular right now!

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

skearnz wrote: »

i remember in warhammer age of reckoning classes that did specific things for off-def targets;
shamans/high mages were able to attack a target and heal their defensive targets through that spells damage.
or other classes that could bestow little buffs to the defensive targets while doing damage with that ability that causes that little buff^^
....maybe thats how [class here]/bard works:O

thought i'd share that:D

R.I.P age of reckoning PvP

There is a Warhammer private server, which is really popular right now!

I know I'm on it ^^

still its just a shame we will not get another Warhammer MMO

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

skearnz wrote: »

i remember in warhammer age of reckoning classes that did specific things for off-def targets;
shamans/high mages were able to attack a target and heal their defensive targets through that spells damage.
or other classes that could bestow little buffs to the defensive targets while doing damage with that ability that causes that little buff^^
....maybe thats how [class here]/bard works:O

thought i'd share that:D

R.I.P age of reckoning PvP

There is a Warhammer private server, which is really popular right now!

I know I'm on it ^^

still its just a shame we will not get another Warhammer MMO

I am waiting for the warhammer mod for Mount and Blade Bannerlords

(same goes for a lotr mod)

MMOJunkie

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Drask wrote: »

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

I wouldn't say that. Most top end healers I know use mouseover macros so they never actually need to target their allies. As long as we have that functionality (which is far more useful in my opinion) we shouldn't need to have separate offensive and defensive targets.

But you're missing his main point, which is not that it is needed, but that it's an innovation that adds a whole new dimension to what is otherwise a really tired old healing paradigm. Rather than your standard old mouseover macro healing, this idea allows a different kind of healing. Not just a lifetap or life leech, either, but rather a way to identify FROM whom the health comes and TO whom the health goes. I think it's a cool idea. I don't have any illusions that it will be added, but I think it's a cool idea.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

skearnz wrote: »

i remember in warhammer age of reckoning classes that did specific things for off-def targets;
shamans/high mages were able to attack a target and heal their defensive targets through that spells damage.
or other classes that could bestow little buffs to the defensive targets while doing damage with that ability that causes that little buff^^
....maybe thats how [class here]/bard works:O

thought i'd share that:D

R.I.P age of reckoning PvP

There is a Warhammer private server, which is really popular right now!

I know I'm on it ^^

still its just a shame we will not get another Warhammer MMO

I am waiting for the warhammer mod for Mount and Blade Bannerlords (same goes for a lotr mod)

I know the lotr one is being made now

Drask

MMOJunkie wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Drask wrote: »

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

I wouldn't say that. Most top end healers I know use mouseover macros so they never actually need to target their allies. As long as we have that functionality (which is far more useful in my opinion) we shouldn't need to have separate offensive and defensive targets.

But you're missing his main point, which is not that it is needed, but that it's an innovation that adds a whole new dimension to what is otherwise a really tired old healing paradigm. Rather than your standard old mouseover macro healing, this idea allows a different kind of healing. Not just a lifetap or life leech, either, but rather a way to identify FROM whom the health comes and TO whom the health goes. I think it's a cool idea. I don't have any illusions that it will be added, but I think it's a cool idea.

It seems like these systems have been pushed aside for simpler control schemes that cater to console gamers over the past decade or so. For instance, how many hotbars have over 10 abilities now? Or, even the ability to create macros these days. I recall having 4-6 different hotbars in some of the older MMO's. And, though some of the abilities were very situational. They all served a purpose. Few things annoy me more than having to choose between two abilities that I unlocked leveling up, because they only allow you a certain amount of abilities to be "active".

It seems that dual targeting may have gone the same way. Decisions that were more than likely made by EA executives(for example) than the collective gaming community.

Leiloni

As a longtime healer please do not do this. Traditional targeting is much easier and preferable.

Damokles

It would be better, if they made this optional.
A tank could use this or a dps with a cleric off spec, but a healer would preferr the normal targeting i would think.

Wandering Mist

Drask wrote: »

MMOJunkie wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Drask wrote: »

If the devs just try it, they'll fall in love with it. I swear! Best quality of life improvement ever to a UI.

I wouldn't say that. Most top end healers I know use mouseover macros so they never actually need to target their allies. As long as we have that functionality (which is far more useful in my opinion) we shouldn't need to have separate offensive and defensive targets.

But you're missing his main point, which is not that it is needed, but that it's an innovation that adds a whole new dimension to what is otherwise a really tired old healing paradigm. Rather than your standard old mouseover macro healing, this idea allows a different kind of healing. Not just a lifetap or life leech, either, but rather a way to identify FROM whom the health comes and TO whom the health goes. I think it's a cool idea. I don't have any illusions that it will be added, but I think it's a cool idea.

It seems like these systems have been pushed aside for simpler control schemes that cater to console gamers over the past decade or so. For instance, how many hotbars have over 10 abilities now? Or, even the ability to create macros these days. I recall having 4-6 different hotbars in some of the older MMO's. And, though some of the abilities were very situational. They all served a purpose. Few things annoy me more than having to choose between two abilities that I unlocked leveling up, because they only allow you a certain amount of abilities to be "active".

It seems that dual targeting may have gone the same way. Decisions that were more than likely made by EA executives(for example) than the collective gaming community.

That is more a matter of balance and adding depth to the game rather than simplifying the gameplay. When you add restrictions like how many abilities you can have active at a time you force players to make a decision. Every time you add choices to a system you add depth, which is a good thing.

Imagine if you were playing Doom and you had unlimited ammo on the BFG. If this were the case there would be no point in having any other weapon because the BFG literally 1-shots everything in its path. This would make the game very very boring because you would just run around nuking everything with this super strong weapon. By restricting the use of the BFG with limited ammo, you present the player with a choice. Do they use this super amazing weapon now or save it for later? Do they use it on this horde of weaker mobs to clear them out quickly or use it on that one bigger tough mob that is likely to kill them? Immediately you have added depth to the game and made the combat more interesting.

In the case of mmorpgs if you could have every ability active at the same time it would take away an element of choice. Let's say you have some damage abilities, some CC abilities and some survivability abilities. If you were able to have all those abilities at the same time it would reduce the amount of choices a player can make. Restrict the amount of abilities and suddenly the player has to choose whether they want more damage, more CC or more survivability. The player can then adapt their skills based on the situation instead of always using the same abilities all the time.

This is a good thing. A few restrictions carefully applied make the game more interesting.

Drask

I gotta disagree. Forcing you into a specific ability spec show horns you into a very specific role. It doesn't allow you to adapt on the fly. The best example of this that I can think of is Archeage. You'd have to have multiple loadouts for each situation. The crappy thing was, you couldn't change them on the fly. So if you're doing some PvE and someone tries to jump you (PvP). You'd be at a distinct disadvantage based on what you had specced before going out to a said area. Also, it ended up being a gold dump, as there was also an associated cost with each respec.

As for the nuking argument that you made. That is, and has been corrected by having ability cooldowns. Also, associated mana/stamina costs. Also, gear can play a role in the more classic games as well. Where your gear either had, say a healing focus, vs a dps focus.

I'm not against making choices by any means. Vanguard being a good example. If you played a cleric, you had to decide what domain you were going to use. This altered each cleric quite a bit. And, the choice was irreversible. Same goes for the shaman. You could either be a bird, bear or wolf shaman. They broke down into caster/tank/dps. They were still healers, but they were quite a bit different.

Drask

Leiloni wrote: »

As a longtime healer please do not do this. Traditional targeting is much easier and preferable.

Damokles wrote: »

It would be better, if they made this optional.
A tank could use this or a dps with a cleric off spec, but a healer would preferr the normal targeting i would think.

I don't see how this takes anything away or makes thing harder. I've used both systems. The dual target system simply allows you to do more and allows different forms of gameplay. You can still hotkey each group member, or simply mouse to them. Benefits being, that when you don't need to heal, you can also pop debuffs or attack enemies. It also improves your situational awareness. Especially, when you can see who the enemy target is targeting. Or, cast to the "target of your target". It was particularly handy as a druid, where i would put a 2 second invuln on the tank, or myself if I got too much hate.

Wandering Mist

Drask wrote: »

I gotta disagree. Forcing you into a specific ability spec show horns you into a very specific role. It doesn't allow you to adapt on the fly. The best example of this that I can think of is Archeage. You'd have to have multiple loadouts for each situation. The crappy thing was, you couldn't change them on the fly. So if you're doing some PvE and someone tries to jump you (PvP). You'd be at a distinct disadvantage based on what you had specced before going out to a said area. Also, it ended up being a gold dump, as there was also an associated cost with each respec.

As for the nuking argument that you made. That is, and has been corrected by having ability cooldowns. Also, associated mana/stamina costs. Also, gear can play a role in the more classic games as well. Where your gear either had, say a healing focus, vs a dps focus.

I'm not against making choices by any means. Vanguard being a good example. If you played a cleric, you had to decide what domain you were going to use. This altered each cleric quite a bit. And, the choice was irreversible. Same goes for the shaman. You could either be a bird, bear or wolf shaman. They broke down into caster/tank/dps. They were still healers, but they were quite a bit different.

1. Being Shoe-horned into a specific role as you put it is necessary for proper game balance. Yes being flexible is good but too many options makes balance impossible, which doesn't help anyone.

2. Your PvP and PvE scenario illustrates my point perfectly. When you go out into the world you will have to decide whether you want to spec more for PvE or PvP. Speccing more for PvE will allow you to take on more challenging PvE content (and therefore better rewards) but leave you open to those who spec more into PvP. This is a good thing because it ties into the risk-reward that is crucial for this type of PvX gameplay.

3. If everyone could do everything equally then literally everyone would run the same spec and the meta would be stagnant.

4. Gold sinks are a necessary part of an mmorpg. Without them the economy suffers from hyper-inflation and the in-game currency becomes worthless. Like it or not they will be a part of this game.

5. The Doom argument was just an easy off the top example of how restrictions can improve gameplay.

6. Your Vanguard example literally proves my point. What exactly is your argument again?

Damokles

Drask wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

As a longtime healer please do not do this. Traditional targeting is much easier and preferable.

Damokles wrote: »

It would be better, if they made this optional.
A tank could use this or a dps with a cleric off spec, but a healer would preferr the normal targeting i would think.

I don't see how this takes anything away or makes thing harder. I've used both systems. The dual target system simply allows you to do more and allows different forms of gameplay. You can still hotkey each group member, or simply mouse to them. Benefits being, that when you don't need to heal, you can also pop debuffs or attack enemies. It also improves your situational awareness. Especially, when you can see who the enemy target is targeting. Or, cast to the "target of your target". It was particularly handy as a druid, where i would put a 2 second invuln on the tank, or myself if I got too much hate.

I didnt say anything about it taking anything away or making things harder.
I said that tanks would like such a mechanic (in regard to maybe protecting or supporting the other tank). I also dont see how kt would majorly add anything.

Drask

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Drask wrote: »

I gotta disagree. Forcing you into a specific ability spec show horns you into a very specific role. It doesn't allow you to adapt on the fly. The best example of this that I can think of is Archeage. You'd have to have multiple loadouts for each situation. The crappy thing was, you couldn't change them on the fly. So if you're doing some PvE and someone tries to jump you (PvP). You'd be at a distinct disadvantage based on what you had specced before going out to a said area. Also, it ended up being a gold dump, as there was also an associated cost with each respec.

As for the nuking argument that you made. That is, and has been corrected by having ability cooldowns. Also, associated mana/stamina costs. Also, gear can play a role in the more classic games as well. Where your gear either had, say a healing focus, vs a dps focus.

I'm not against making choices by any means. Vanguard being a good example. If you played a cleric, you had to decide what domain you were going to use. This altered each cleric quite a bit. And, the choice was irreversible. Same goes for the shaman. You could either be a bird, bear or wolf shaman. They broke down into caster/tank/dps. They were still healers, but they were quite a bit different.

1. Being Shoe-horned into a specific role as you put it is necessary for proper game balance. Yes being flexible is good but too many options makes balance impossible, which doesn't help anyone.

Archeage being an example, there are really only a few viable classes when it comes to PvP. So, this doesn't necessarily make things balanced. Balance itself, is obviously, a tricky thing to get right. Personally, I didn't find stun locking things to death all that fun. But, to each their own.

2. Your PvP and PvE scenario illustrates my point perfectly. When you go out into the world you will have to decide whether you want to spec more for PvE or PvP. Speccing more for PvE will allow you to take on more challenging PvE content (and therefore better rewards) but leave you open to those who spec more into PvP. This is a good thing because it ties into the risk-reward that is crucial for this type of PvX gameplay.

This can also be done via gear. I'm not sure that respeccing for each encounter makes for the greatest gaming experience though. But, this is just my opinion.

3. If everyone could do everything equally then literally everyone would run the same spec and the meta would be stagnant.

Don't get me wrong. I like a large variety of classes and different abilities. And, straight dps casters should vary from those with utility. Same goes with burst vs sustained dps. Again, balancing straight dps vs the utility is not something that is easily balanced. Melee/ranged or any other similar comparison is the same. Each should have their benefits and drawbacks.

4. Gold sinks are a necessary part of an mmorpg. Without them the economy suffers from hyper-inflation and the in-game currency becomes worthless. Like it or not they will be a part of this game.

I'm not disagreeing with gold sinks in general. Just for a respec to make you PvP viable in an instant, multiple times a day is a bit of a drag. Especially, if you're low on cash.

5. The Doom argument was just an easy off the top example of how restrictions can improve gameplay.

6. Your Vanguard example literally proves my point. What exactly is your argument again?

I mean, we're literally scratching the surface on this very complex issue. But, it's not specific class choices that I'm referring to. Rather, the loadout choices that populate your hotbar. Just because two people have the same ability loadout; or are the same class doesn't mean that they will put out the same dps for instance. So, why not even the playing field from the "get-go"? It often depends on when, and in what order they activate said abilities. Hopefully, this is clarifying my meaning.

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