Meters, why say no?

So here's why

Good guild leaders use DPS meters to help, teach, train members of their guilds to be better at their jobs. This is 100% absolutely true.

Shitty guild leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"
PUG raid leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"

Now, in all honesty which do you think is true:

The majority of people using DPS meters are using them for good reasons to help teach and train their guild members/raid members

or

The majority of people using DPS meters are using them to keep scrubs out of their raids

Now as far as

DaddySaucy wrote: »

I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people.

That's a mighty find opinion to have, but when one of the people who says no is the Creative Director who has kicked in $30,000,000 and the other is the Lead Game Designer, well those two aren't just a couple of people. They are THE people.

While you make some good points, this also promotes the concept of "Everyone should be punished for the few who mess up" Group punishment is wrong, and i didn't know that opinions mean more if you have money or have made something. I'm just as much of a person as any of the developers are any my opinion should matter too.

Damokles

People will find a way to use DPS meters no matter what.
The question is: will they controll the meters or will they leave them uncontrolled?

While yes, they are making the game and they have a massive say in what happens, i do not believe that we should be completely denied a helpful tool just because some people misuse it.

DaddySaucy wrote: »

If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.

Wandering Mist

DaddySaucy wrote: »

While you make some good points, this also promotes the concept of "Everyone should be punished for the few who mess up" Group punishment is wrong, and i didn't know that opinions mean more if you have money or have made something. I'm just as much of a person as any of the developers are any my opinion should matter too.

Oh lord, ignoring the issue of everyone's opinion being equal (which has never been the case, nor will ever be the case), here is my problem with dps meters. On top of what @Jahlon said, the majority of people take data in the simplest form and often make irrational judgements from incomplete information. In the case of dps meters, when a raid wipes, a lot of players will look at the dps meter, see who has done the lowest dps and immediately conclude that the reason for the wipe is because of the low dps.

I have done progression raiding in a number of different mmorpgs and there have been very very few occasions where we have failed to kill a boss due to low dps. Most of the time a raid wipes because people fail at the fight mechanics, getting both themselves and their teammates killed. Yes having higher dps on a fight will help because it shortens the fight, but at the end of the day if you can't do the mechanics it doesn't matter how high your dps is, you will fail.

The thing about a simple dps meter is that it assumes everyone is equal, which is never the case. Different classes have different damage outputs based on a situation. If a boss fight requires constantly switching to different targets and bursting them down, a class with a long ramp-up time on its damage-output will inevitably do less overall damage than a class that has a lot of upfront burst.

Then of course on top of that you have the issue of RNG. It's quite common for raid fights to have debuffs that go onto random players, forcing them to stop dps'ing for a period of time. A player who is unlucky enough to get such a debuff lots of times is probably going to do less damage than a player who never gets the debuff.

With this in mind, you can't just look at a dps meter and immediately tell what the problem is. It's not that simple. Unfortunately most players who rely on dps meters don't understand this concept and start barking up the wrong tree because of it.

@ Wandering Mist, you use a lot of general terms. "Majority" "most". that doesnt mean everybody. While i'm happy you havent had situations where dps has been an issue for your raid teams but please understand you're 1 person in 1 raid team. That doesnt sum up all groups everywhere. Of course mechanics matter and anyone who is competent in raiding is aware that dps sslows down in mechanically heavy situations. And if you take a game like FFXIV where they do not have their own meters, and its a plugin they need to install to get something like it. This is how theory crafters started making outlier graphs to show the highs and lows for dps for certain classes. example: a dancer in FFXIV should never be beating monks or dragoons, ever, unless the monk or dragoon is under preforming. Just assuming everybody takes all data they see at face value is unfair for those who go in-depth and realise "This dps did this much during this phase, compared to a different dps class in the same phase, and i understand that they both have different values and will not be equal to eachother." in FFXIv, a dancer doing ~13k dps and a dragoon doing ~17k dps, those are both really good numbers for each of those classes and i see nothing wrong with that as that is just how it is. classes do more than others. however, if we're not able to see that the dragoon is doing 7kdps to the dancer's 13k dps, how are we ever to know that we need to help the dragoon? Tools are made neutral, and its up to people to use them. Technology is not inherently evil.

If meters werent so demonized and were taught to be used better, maybe people would stop seeing them as this evil concept to punish players who arent perfect, and start to see it as a tool to help yourself improve. if you see someone with the same gear and skills as you, and they're blowing you away, you can know to ask them for tips on what you're doing incorrectly and where to improve. and obviously your dps is going to be low if you're dead..

Wandering Mist

DaddySaucy wrote: »

@ Wandering Mist, you use a lot of general terms. "Majority" "most". that doesnt mean everybody. While i'm happy you havent had situations where dps has been an issue for your raid teams but please understand you're 1 person in 1 raid team. That doesnt sum up all groups everywhere. Of course mechanics matter and anyone who is competent in raiding is aware that dps sslows down in mechanically heavy situations. And if you take a game like FFXIV where they do not have their own meters, and its a plugin they need to install to get something like it. This is how theory crafters started making outlier graphs to show the highs and lows for dps for certain classes. example: a dancer in FFXIV should never be beating monks or dragoons, ever, unless the monk or dragoon is under preforming. Just assuming everybody takes all data they see at face value is unfair for those who go in-depth and realise "This dps did this much during this phase, compared to a different dps class in the same phase, and i understand that they both have different values and will not be equal to eachother." in FFXIv, a dancer doing ~13k dps and a dragoon doing ~17k dps, those are both really good numbers for each of those classes and i see nothing wrong with that as that is just how it is. classes do more than others. however, if we're not able to see that the dragoon is doing 7kdps to the dancer's 13k dps, how are we ever to know that we need to help the dragoon? Tools are made neutral, and its up to people to use them. Technology is not inherently evil.

You are making 2 very wrong assumptions in that example:

1. That the raid fight is so tightly tuned that the only way to win is through higher dps output (as noted in my previous post, this is rarely the case)
2. That the reason why the Dragoon is doing less damage than the Dancer is because they "don't know how to play their class".

It's got nothing to do with dps meters being "demonised" but rather that the meters, for the most part, aren't necessary.

Mist you're also assuming. Any way either of us try to word this, we're assuming one way or another. The dancer could be doing more because dancer could be an instant cast ranged class compared to a melee dragoon sure. But is that so hard for people to understand that if that were the case, seeing a dancer above dragoon would be acceptable? There are countless scenario's for anything that can happen in a raid. A fight could be tightly tuned (you said yourself they are rare but can infact be the case) or it could be loose and it not matter. The dragoon could be under performing because they dont know their class, or it could be a heavy mechanic fight. on one end of the spectrum its ok, its heavy movement and anyone with logs should know enough about life to understand that is acceptable in that situation. But what if it is infact, that they dont know how to play their class? WE COULD LITERALLY NEVER KNOW MIST. if we can NEVER see meters and a log of a fight, and they live the rest of their life believing they're the best dragoon in the world and its everyone elses fault, that does nobody any good. Not only is their current raid going to suffer, but so will any other one they join if they never learn that THEY. NEED. HELP. Warcraft logs, a fantastic tool. Lets you see when a player died in a fight, which shows their dps panning out. you now know why their dps fell off. a missed burst window? they can use that info to help correct themselves and time things better. You cant fix what you dont know is broken, and thats a major issue in any game. Cuz not all games are just smash-to-win, some bosses have dps checks or enrages for taking too long. if you're always hitting that enrage on a 40 man raid boss, how're you going to know who isnt performing? Cuz god knows they'll never speak up that they dont understand something.

Meters are a great tool to see the breakdown of your teams performance on a fight. Low dps numbers? Use common sense. did they die? If yes, then you know why they fell off. does not take rocket science to figure that one out. Heavy mechanics for melee players? Sure, all range players will probably be beating them out. Completely normal there. Its when theres a true issue that meters shine. if you never let players see whats happening, they'll make a way to see themselves. Plugins and addons can be against TOS sure. it can even be bannable, sure. But that will NOT stop players from risking their entire account to have a tool to help themselves or others. Denying us this tool will only hurt certain players. You cant have a game with 64 class combinations and not expect players to want to theory craft. You can have a testing zone, but will that place even have meters? Can you even see your own damage? Cuz a target dummy can never properly prepare yourself for a target that moves and has mechanics so that is not good enough of a work around. FFXIV did not have meters, still doesnt. So people made it themselves. Square Enix does not mind that players does this, but they dont promote it. Fantastic, thats a good way to look at it. "WE don't endorse this activity, but will turn a blind eye to it" type deals would work just fine. It makes it so not everyone would just have it, and the only people who have it are those who need it. you cant make claims to have hardcore content that ~1% of players will be able to clear and not give them tools to understand the fight or even themselves. I genuinely do not understand why people fight this. In my experience, people who didnt like getting called out in their raid team that they signed up for, is they go to another guild. That isnt a difficult concept. If a guild is more serious about progression and want to min/max, why are you going to tell them to their face that they cant play the game the way they want to play it?

So if you are going to keep posting, PLEASE use paragraph breaks. You are throwing up walls of text that are difficult to work though.

Now, your first reply to me was:

DaddySaucy wrote: »

While you make some good points, this also promotes the concept of "Everyone should be punished for the few who mess up" Group punishment is wrong, and i didn't know that opinions mean more if you have money or have made something. I'm just as much of a person as any of the developers are any my opinion should matter too.

Its not a few people, and you aren't really looking for any discourse you are trying to advance an agenda. I asked a question in my post:

Jahlon wrote: »

Now, in all honesty which do you think is true:

The majority of people using DPS meters are using them for good reasons to help teach and train their guild members/raid members

or

The majority of people using DPS meters are using them to keep scrubs out of their raids

Do you really think its only a few people that are going to mess up? Really? You think there are more good guild leaders that are going to use DPS meters to help people figure out the builds and rotations?

No, they are going to be raid leaders who want to clear content. They aren't going to give a shit about helping people. They are doing it for themselves.

Now

DaddySaucy wrote: »

While yes, they are making the game and they have a massive say in what happens, i do not believe that we should be completely denied a helpful tool just because some people misuse it.

Well, it works like this. If the creators of the game say you aren't going to have a DPS meter, you are going to have a DPS meter. The people making the game don't have a massive say, they have the ONLY say.

Finally

DaddySaucy wrote: »

d. FFXIV did not have meters, still doesnt. So people made it themselves. Square Enix does not mind that players does this, but they dont promote it.

This is actually incorrect. Square Enix does not do active enforcement on the use of DPS meters, but if you kick someone from your raid/party and in game you say "Your DPS sucks, goodbye" or something to that extent, if the person files a ticket against you, you will in fact get banned.

SE allows people to use 3rd party DPS meters simply because they have no way to stop it, but they do enforce the bad behavior of people kicking new players out if they employ it.

I've used DPS meters, I've seen games like Revelation Online incorporate them into the game, but I'm not going to die if we don't have them in Ashes of Creation.

You're entitled to your opinion that most raid leads will abuse this. But for those who dont, why are you so intent at throwing them to the wolves? Are people not allowed to play sandbox mmo's their own way? Is it really SOOO bad that i want to know how well i'm doing compared to others that i have to risk getting BANNED by intrepid for using a plugin or addon for meters? Are you and everyone so heavily against intelligent raiding and use of game information that the very idea of it is cause for instant refuting? If thats how this game and its community thinks, im not sure i should continue to be as hopeful for it as i have been for the 2 years i've been waiting for alpha 1 to get close to dropping.

They dont even have to say they're ok. They dont even need to have a positive opinion on the matter. They can openly say that anyone who uses meters are satan themselves, but to go as far as banning any kind of use of it will lose my subscription. Kinda shows that they dont care what the minority wants, only caring about the majority.

And only looking at what the majority thinks, well.. You saw how that worked out for WoW. It's mythic raiding scene is all but dead because they set focus on the casuals

It makes me sad that you can only see the negatives in this situation, not even giving any helpful uses of it a second thought. Quite depressing to see how the community further progresses if this is the consensus. What else will we take away next? Different mounts because it promotes people showing off? guess we'll all be stuck with horses then, so nobody feels left out

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I have done progression raiding in a number of different mmorpgs and there have been very very few occasions where we have failed to kill a boss due to low dps. Most of the time a raid wipes because people fail at the fight mechanics, getting both themselves and their teammates killed. Yes having higher dps on a fight will help because it shortens the fight, but at the end of the day if you can't do the mechanics it doesn't matter how high your dps is, you will fail.

Is this because the meters weren't needed, as you seem to be suggesting, or is it because the players in your guild had been using them long enough to already understand how to get the most out of their class?

Jahlon wrote: »

Good guild leaders use DPS meters to help, teach, train members of their guilds to be better at their jobs. This is 100% absolutely true.

Shitty guild leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"
PUG raid leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"

So how about we only put them in the hands of good guild leaders?

The way to do this is, as I have said in other threads (many of them, at this point), to make them a guild perk for reasonably high level guilds, but as one of several options that would only be taken by a guild that raids PvE often. And when chosen, that combat tracker (I do hate the term DPS meter, it is so one dimensional) only works on players in that guild.

Thus, the pug leader simply doesn't have access to a DPS meter, and even if they were in a guild that had one, it would only work on people in his raid that were also in the same guild.

Additionally, the shitty leader is unlikely to have one. Shitty guild leaders don't tend to stay in charge of guilds that raid PvE. Either the leader gets told to leave, or the players leave.

The good leader though, that person now has access to a tool that they can and will use to better the players in their guild, and potentially other players if they desire such help.

Now, you may disagree, but to me, if you have a thing that has good points and bad points to it, then you have to weight up whether those good points out weigh the bad.

However, if you are able to almost completely remove those bad points from the situation, without affecting the good points, then it should be a given that it is worth having under those circumstances.

DaddySaucy wrote: »

It makes me sad that you can only see the negatives in this situation, not even giving any helpful uses of it a second thought. Quite depressing to see how the community further progresses if this is the consensus. What else will we take away next? Different mounts because it promotes people showing off? guess we'll all be stuck with horses then, so nobody feels left out

Are you for real with this statement?

I literally made a better argument for them then you did. I spelled out the helpful use better than you did.

And, its always interesting when someone has lost an argument so they become flippant. Your horse thing is so ridiculous is almost not worth mentioning, except i will mention it because you basically just said

"I'm taking my ball and going home"

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I have done progression raiding in a number of different mmorpgs and there have been very very few occasions where we have failed to kill a boss due to low dps. Most of the time a raid wipes because people fail at the fight mechanics, getting both themselves and their teammates killed. Yes having higher dps on a fight will help because it shortens the fight, but at the end of the day if you can't do the mechanics it doesn't matter how high your dps is, you will fail.

Is this because the meters weren't needed, as you seem to be suggesting, or is it because the players in your guild had been using them long enough to already understand how to get the most out of their class?

Jahlon wrote: »

Good guild leaders use DPS meters to help, teach, train members of their guilds to be better at their jobs. This is 100% absolutely true.

Shitty guild leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"
PUG raid leaders use it as an exclusionary tool to remove "scrubs"

So how about we only put them in the hands of good guild leaders?

The way to do this is, as I have said in other threads (many of them, at this point), to make them a guild perk for reasonably high level guilds, but as one of several options that would only be taken by a guild that raids PvE often. And when chosen, that combat tracker (I do hate the term DPS meter, it is so one dimensional) only works on players in that guild.

Thus, the pug leader simply doesn't have access to a DPS meter, and even if they were in a guild that had one, it would only work on people in his raid that were also in the same guild.

Additionally, the shitty leader is unlikely to have one. Shitty guild leaders don't tend to stay in charge of guilds that raid PvE. Either the leader gets told to leave, or the players leave.

The good leader though, that person now has access to a tool that they can and will use to better the players in their guild, and potentially other players if they desire such help.

Now, you may disagree, but to me, if you have a thing that has good points and bad points to it, then you have to weight up whether those good points out weigh the bad.

However, if you are able to almost completely remove those bad points from the situation, without affecting the good points, then it should be a given that it is worth having under those circumstances.

These are all good points, but I don't know many guilds that would want to give up a bonus or perk for a DPS meter, when, we all know there's no way to stop them anyway. They just won't be sanctioned.

As long as you aren't kicking people out of PUG raids and telling them in game they were kicked because of their DPS, there's no way to prove anything.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I have done progression raiding in a number of different mmorpgs and there have been very very few occasions where we have failed to kill a boss due to low dps. Most of the time a raid wipes because people fail at the fight mechanics, getting both themselves and their teammates killed. Yes having higher dps on a fight will help because it shortens the fight, but at the end of the day if you can't do the mechanics it doesn't matter how high your dps is, you will fail.

Is this because the meters weren't needed, as you seem to be suggesting, or is it because the players in your guild had been using them long enough to already understand how to get the most out of their class?

I believe that unless you are aiming for world firsts and are really undergeared for the raid (i.e. you're in the top 1% of players) you don't need a dps meter to beat the content you are aiming at.

Jahlon wrote: »

These are all good points, but I don't know many guilds that would want to give up a bonus or perk for a DPS meter, when, we all know there's no way to stop them anyway. They just won't be sanctioned.

As long as you aren't kicking people out of PUG raids and telling them in game they were kicked because of their DPS, there's no way to prove anything.

The two people in charge of the combat trackers that I am aware of have both said they are only developing them because as it stands right now, it looks as though nothing else will be available. They are raiders, and they will have a meter.

Both have told me outright that they would rather Intrepid have control over what is and is not in a combat tracker for Ashes, as long as it meets the basics of what raiders want (note; it doesn't even need to be real time, getting information when an encounter is finished would be fine, successful or not).

Put in the ability for people to pick a meter in game instead of a crafting perk, or a PvP perk, and they won't even bother finishing the meters they are working on.

Others may, but I kind of doubt it. It is a lot of work to make one for a game that isn't designed to have one, and the only reason it is worth it is if the basic functionality isn't available any other way. If those basics are there, then it isn't worth the work required just to add in any additional features that may be desired.

And yeah, with the meters being developed, the only way anyone - including Intrepid - would know they are being used is if players using them outright state they are using them.

Even that is unlikely to be enough to ban a player though - just because I booted you and said your DPS is too low, doesn't mean I am using a meter. I may have just seen you standing in a corner not casting for 30 seconds during an encounter.

Undead Canuck

Just responding to the question asked. Because the developers said no.

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Just responding to the question asked. Because the developers said no.

Have you got a quote for that?

The following is the only quote I have found direct from Intrepid

Question; For your interface, have you guys discussed how much freedom the player will have in configuration options, like, are you designing it for players to be able to install mods?

Steven; That's a good question, and it's something that we are definitely addressing in our discussions. I think we're maybe leaning towards not allowing the mods.

Jeff; Yeah it just depends what we're talking about when it comes to mods, because they can provide boons and they can provide banes. We're just not sure where we are on that. They'll definitely be some option for customization, especially on the UI side of things, but as far as true mods, I'm not sure how far we are going to support that.

Steven; I think that the issue with mods becomes that certain players have access to certain mods, now the mods become necessary to play the game from a competitive aspect. And if players don't have that mod, then their experiencing the game on a different level, and I just don't want that meta to appear where mods are required in order to perform.

That is all I can find. This was three years ago, and so it safe to say that it would not be fair to hold them to that, in either direction.

Nothing in that says anything about a built in combat tracker. If anything, it would support it, as that is the best way to ensure there is no situation where a player has a mod that allows them to play the game on a different level.

Now, if you can find a specific quote that says anything else, I am absolutely more than keen to be pointed towards it. I mean, I may have managed to not find it, and I am all about having as accurate info as is possible.

However, in all the discussions on this topic on these forums, the above is the only discussion I can find from Intrepid.

DaddySaucy wrote: »

And only looking at what the majority thinks, well.. You saw how that worked out for WoW. It's mythic raiding scene is all but dead because they set focus on the casuals

So you're using the game that incorporated DBM, and Threat Meters, and dps meters in response to calls that the raiding scene needed them, as an example of a failed raiding scene? Also how well did it work out for wow? Because last i checked even as the shadow of it's former self, it's still the largest mmorpg currently in existence.

DaddySaucy wrote: »

but to go as far as banning any kind of use of it will lose my subscription. Kinda shows that they dont care what the minority wants, only caring about the majority.

Then you will have plenty of other games to play as we keep playing Ashes.

noaani wrote: »

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Just responding to the question asked. Because the developers said no.

Have you got a quote for that?

The following is the only quote I have found direct from Intrepid

Question; For your interface, have you guys discussed how much freedom the player will have in configuration options, like, are you designing it for players to be able to install mods?

Steven; That's a good question, and it's something that we are definitely addressing in our discussions. I think we're maybe leaning towards not allowing the mods.

Jeff; Yeah it just depends what we're talking about when it comes to mods, because they can provide boons and they can provide banes. We're just not sure where we are on that. They'll definitely be some option for customization, especially on the UI side of things, but as far as true mods, I'm not sure how far we are going to support that.

Steven; I think that the issue with mods becomes that certain players have access to certain mods, now the mods become necessary to play the game from a competitive aspect. And if players don't have that mod, then their experiencing the game on a different level, and I just don't want that meta to appear where mods are required in order to perform.

That is all I can find. This was three years ago, and so it safe to say that it would not be fair to hold them to that, in either direction.

Nothing in that says anything about a built in combat tracker. If anything, it would support it, as that is the best way to ensure there is no situation where a player has a mod that allows them to play the game on a different level.

Now, if you can find a specific quote that says anything else, I am absolutely more than keen to be pointed towards it. I mean, I may have managed to not find it, and I am all about having as accurate info as is possible.

However, in all the discussions on this topic on these forums, the above is the only discussion I can find from Intrepid.

Steven today pretty much said no DPS meters
They've said it a number of times on a number of occasions
They've specifically said they won't be including the API hooks for DPS meters

Jahlon wrote: »

Steven today pretty much said no DPS meters

Where?

@noaani During today's live stream. The chat kept asking the question, and berating each other lol. They used it as an extra question.

Lalli

Ventharien wrote: »

@noaani During today's live stream. The chat kept asking the question, and berating each other lol. They used it as an extra question.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42183/library-livestream-discord-qna-transcriptions It's not on there yet but I'm sure @Shaze will update it very soon.

Ventharien wrote: »

@noaani During today's live stream. The chat kept asking the question, and berating each other lol. They used it as an extra question.

So, I just went and watched it.

Basically, this is what I got from the whole thing.

Steven doesn't like combat trackers, and so the game won't have them. Cool, I've said many times that I want them to develop the game that they want to develop. It isn't how I would personally want them to do it, but I would rather they do it how they want than how I want.

Next, Steven sees constant repetition of the same single encounter in an attempt to get a kill as being valid end game content, and that players wanting to play end game content in Ashes should be ok with that. I think he will find that end game players disagree with him here. End game players will have a limit on how much time they are willing to put in to a single encounter. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

We are likely to never know though, due to the next part.

When he said that he would prefer players learning curve be based on experience rather than a data table, but then says you can take that experience and convert it to a data table, well, that is what third party combat trackers do.

It may not have been intentional, but to me, this is tantamount to admitting that third party combat trackers are likely to exist in some form. Since a number of his statements are referencing things I have directly bought up on these forums (even if he disagrees with me), that would suggest he is also aware that there are indeed combat trackers being developed for the game already.

Now, others may well have taken something different to that away from what was said, but that is what I got.

Edit; so what this means is that we will end up with the same situation as every other game - where third party tools become essential for competitive play. Those tools may not be on par with the likes to DBM - due purely to not having API support - but they will exist, and players with them will have an absolute edge over players without them in both PvE and PvP content.

I'm fairly sure this is the eventuality that literally no one wanted.

He says they can data table it, and Margaret suggests that Steven inform every one of the third party policy, though i don't think he heard her and finishes his statement. And people have been fighting the same single encounter ad naseum across multiple game genres, especially mmo's. Not only will they do so dozens of times in an attempt to world first, or server first, they will then farm that content repeatedly for months and even years. I don't think player attention is that pressing a concern especially at that level.