Caravan gameplay

For anyone thinking of taking part in the caravan system, particularly defending the caravans, a thought occurred to me today. The caravan system is a paradox in terms of gameplay. On the one hand, the gatherers and crafters will want the caravans to make it to their destination quickly without incident, since if the caravan is destroyed, their trade is disrupted. However, if this happens then any player guarding the caravan will be very very bored and have a bad experience. The only way to make it interesting to the guard players would be to have the caravan attacked.

After all, if the caravan doesn't get attacked it turns into the most boring escort quest ever.

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Undead Canuck

But the most lucrative.

Ravudha

I guess that's unavoidable in some cases; it can depend on how social the group is, how active scouting is, and how valuable the cargo is to make the trip more enticing.

In AA running packs was mostly about gaining gold. If I'm escorting a caravan in AoC with the mats for my next upgrade or some other significant item or an item of value for some grander guild pursuit, I wouldn't mind a boring escort so much.

Varkun

I imagine there will be guilds groups form that will seek to hunt down caravans for the pvp and loot they will provide. As the game matures after a few months caravans may well be hunted to prevent nodes from obtaining the resources they need to advance. Regional scarcities/depletion is supposed to promote the need to move large amounts of materials thus there should be caravans on the move quite regularly and if the rewards are worth the effort people will hunt them and once rivalries start up between different nodes and ZOI that is just extra incentive to hunt them.

Though there no doubt will be caravans that may make it through unmolested at times which honestly may not be such a bad thing. We really need to see how it will all shake out through the test phases.

George_Black

I predict very movie like scenarios with caravans.
It wont be one trader with 8 friends going across the map with 50-50 chances of PvP.

I can see A LOT of traders getting together to move their items to other nodes. Some may split paths but I can see large number of players guarding multiple traders.

If I dont have the time to play at a castle owning level competition I am definatly going for a bandit guild to raid EVERY SINGLE CARAVAN.

Noaani

A few things I see happening.

First, I see caravans mostly being formed and guarded on the guild level, where everyone in the guild assists with the caravan for one member today, and then next time it is someone elses. This would mean the majority of people in the guild would be after an uneventful journey every time.

The next thing I see happening is the majority of caravans will be run at opportune times. Rather than running during prime time on a weekend, players will run caravans late in the evening or early morning during the week, hoping to get by without being noticed. Or perhaps while the largest military node in the area is having it's "election", since most PvP-friendly players will be there. Since most players will play on a server that suits them in terms of ability to participate in sieges and such, there is a good chance that servers will be a lot quieter than we are used to seeing during non-peak times - making this kind of thing feasible.

I can also see players making use of player inventories to transport materials between neighboring nodes. This will likely be inefficient, but is a better use of a players time than randomly running and jumping around town, or could be a good thing to do while waiting for some other activity. If you have a situation where you need to swap resources between two nodes but really aren't interested in risking running a caravan, this could actually turn out to be viable (but then again, it may not, it does depend on how much we are able to carry).

One last thing I can see as being a potential situation is that rather than players moving materials between nodes, they will mode infrastructure between nodes. If you are a materials processor and the raw material you process isn't to be found in your area any longer, it may be worth your while to pack up your freehold, find a node with those materials and place it down again with citizenship to your new node. This being feasible depends on how easy it is to do, and how long we would expect resources to last before they are gone.

What I don't see happening is for players to continuously throw resources in to a caravan system unless they have a reasonable expectation of maintaining ownership of them at the other end.

Edit; one more thing I see players doing in order to protect their resources is only moving them over one node at a time. This would attract less attention from would be robbers, and makes it harder (perhaps even impossible) to mount a sizable attack force if one is not already assembled. The possibility of this happening depends almost exclusively on how hard it is to store materials, if it is easy (a guild member being a citizen in that node, as an example), then I see this being the number one method employed by players to keep materials safe.

Flashman

Wandering Mist wrote: »

On the one hand, the gatherers and crafters will want the caravans to make it to their destination quickly without incident, since if the caravan is destroyed, their trade is disrupted. However, if this happens then any player guarding the caravan will be very very bored and have a bad experience.

Sure, the gatherers and crafters may want that to be the case... and yes, that would be a tad boring.

However, just because they want it to be the case, doesn't mean it will. Lots of caravans will be raided.

mcstackerson

In the past, when I played games with similar systems, the excitement mostly came from the risk and reward, not necessarily the fights.

If you are looking for fights, you probably shouldn't be doing caravans.

Noaani

blur wrote: »

Lots of caravans will be raided.

I'm not sure that will be the case, especially if you consider the whole life of the game.

If caravans are raided often, players will simply stop running them.

If players find the game doesn't work without running caravans, they will play a game that isn't broken.

Even from the perspective of the raiding party, nothing is a given. If you are out looking for caravans to raid, you are essentially spending the majority of your time just wandering around the game world as a somewhat competent PvP group, but without actually seeing much PvP.

If you have a group like this assembled, there are ways you can more easily find PvP.

Remember that since there is no fast travel, you may know exactly where a caravan is, but without others already with you to take it on, you don't stand that much of a chance. My assumption is that there is about 6 - 8 minutes worth of travel time between nodes, so if a caravan is only going to the next node over (possibly a smart tactic, one that I'm going to add to my above post on things I see happening), your friends would basically have to drop what they are doing and head your way immediately in order to get there in time.

Flashman

noaani wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Lots of caravans will be raided.

I'm not sure that will be the case, especially if you consider the whole life of the game.

"Lots" is assuredly a relative term. However, if you look at the aspect of the OP I'm replying to, I'm needing to make the point that while gatherers and crafters would love it if their caravans are never raided, of course they're going to be raided. And it won't be some super-rare occurrence that shocks people when it happens. Hence, over the course of the game, plenty of caravans will be raided. It's the whole point of having it in the gameplay, otherwise - if it was meant to be incredibly safe - this would all just happen off-screen and not be an in-game mechanic that people could interfere with. So while I take your point that it will be a mechanic people use because it gets stuff through "more often than not" and isn't a total waste of time, it will still potentially be raided often, as well.

Plateau

I was under the impression that caravan raids would start more as a PvE thing with NPCs. Like most caravans should have a number of NPC guards, so when a raiding party comes along they have to take a few minutes to dispatch the NPCs first. That gives a few minutes for allies of the caravan/node to come to the rescue.

From the perspective of an allied citizen, it would be kinda like any other random event: they get a notification if an allied caravan is being attacked nearby, they have a couple minutes to join the fight before it's too late, and they get a small reward for helping to guard it.

It could also be possible that NPC bandits have a chance to attack any caravan, just so that it's not so boring to guard. And so there's a good reason to guard it, even when you don't expect PvP attackers (like during off-peak hours).

Essentially NPCs can form a baseline for caravan battles, to ease the randomness of Player participation. So I don't think we have to worry too much about caravans being dead/boring content.

What we should be worried about, and I don't have a quick answer for, is balancing those ad-hoc PvP battles with variable numbers of participants. How easy is it to just zerg rush a caravan before any defenders arrive? If there's a group of 20+ raiders, will there be time for defenders to intervene, or does every caravan need 20+ player guards, just in case? How much do the NPCs (guards and bandits) vary in their strength? Can they scale dynamically, in order to balance the number of player participants? Or would that invalidate the existing system where the major can pay for extra guards/defense?

How often do caravans even run? Is it possible to make a living off caravan raiding, without some kind of espionage/intel to tell you when/where they run? Can a caravan be partially raided, but still deliver a portion of it's cargo?

I'm really not sure what to expect. So uh, that's going to be a very important thing to watch in the alphas and betas.

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

I was under the impression that caravan raids would start more as a PvE thing with NPCs. Like most caravans should have a number of NPC guards, so when a raiding party comes along they have to take a few minutes to dispatch the NPCs first. That gives a few minutes for allies of the caravan/node to come to the rescue.

From the perspective of an allied citizen, it would be kinda like any other random event: they get a notification if an allied caravan is being attacked nearby, they have a couple minutes to join the fight before it's too late, and they get a small reward for helping to guard it.

It could also be possible that NPC bandits have a chance to attack any caravan, just so that it's not so boring to guard. And so there's a good reason to guard it, even when you don't expect PvP attackers (like during off-peak hours).

Essentially NPCs can form a baseline for caravan battles, to ease the randomness of Player participation. So I don't think we have to worry too much about caravans being dead/boring content.

What we should be worried about, and I don't have a quick answer for, is balancing those ad-hoc PvP battles with variable numbers of participants. How easy is it to just zerg rush a caravan before any defenders arrive? If there's a group of 20+ raiders, will there be time for defenders to intervene, or does every caravan need 20+ player guards, just in case? How much do the NPCs (guards and bandits) vary in their strength? Can they scale dynamically, in order to balance the number of player participants? Or would that invalidate the existing system where the major can pay for extra guards/defense?

How often do caravans even run? Is it possible to make a living off caravan raiding, without some kind of espionage/intel to tell you when/where they run? Can a caravan be partially raided, but still deliver a portion of it's cargo?

I'm really not sure what to expect. So uh, that's going to be a very important thing to watch in the alphas and betas.

From my understanding of how caravans will work, it is more likely that players wanting to defend a caravan will tag along for the whole journey. While there is provision to join in an attack on a caravan on the defenders side, that seems to me as if it will be more for people that happen upon a caravan raid, rather than as the main form of defense.

While a caravan may have NPC guards, it is unlikely that those guards will be all that effective. I would think that they would provide protection against a single attacker, or perhaps two, but any larger group than that would want player characters there to do the bulk of the defending.

I mean, personal caravans are player driven and directed. Seems to me to be a bad idea to give players that much control over NPC guards that are any stronger than that.

As to your last questions, caravans run as often as players want them to, as what I assume will be the most common type of caravan is the personal one, and is literally a means of moving materials between one node and another.

It is probably not possible to make a living purely off of caravan raiding at all. If you defeat a caravan, that caravan will drop certificates for you to pick up that can be turned in at the origin point of that caravan, and when turned in they give you a portion of the materials that were in that caravan. Thus defeating a caravan yields you materials in a zone where they were of little use - so little use that another player risked their possession of those materials in order to transport them somewhere else.

So even if you did raid a caravan, you would then likely have to run a caravan yourself in order to make profit on your efforts.

As for whether a caravan can be partially raided, the answer would seem to be no, the only option is to destroy the caravan or not destroy it. If the caravan is destroyed, it would seem that the resources that were in it are suddenly transported back to their node of origin and can only be accessed via the certificate that dropped from said caravans corpse.

Ventharien

From what we've seen and heard, i think personal caravans will likely be generally safe, after all you could purposely drive them through low traffic, off road ways. I think most of the raids we see will be on Node caravans, if those aren't player controllable, and follow normal traffic flows like roads and bridges.

Flashman

noaani wrote: »

It is probably not possible to make a living purely off of caravan raiding at all.

But are people seeking to live off it, or is it more of a spoiling/harassing strategy versus opponents?

Morashtak

Wandering Mist wrote: »

After all, if the caravan doesn't get attacked it turns into the most boring escort quest ever.

Uhm... no necessarily. I played Naval Action for a while and there was many a time when I had a cargo full of high value items. Knowing I could be attacked at any time kept me always a bit paranoid; watching chat for reports of enemy activity, keeping my head on a swivel with spyglass at the ready, planning an escape route all throughout the trip, etc. Arriving at my final port of call without being attacked filled me with immense relief.

Just because you shouldn't be attacked doesn't mean you won't be. Boring trips should be the rare exception, not the norm even when the caravan is not attacked.

Noaani

blur wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

It is probably not possible to make a living purely off of caravan raiding at all.

But are people seeking to live off it, or is it more of a spoiling/harassing strategy versus opponents?

There will likely be people hunting out specific caravans for node and castle related progression, but I would assume most personal caravan attacks would be opportunistic more than pre-planned.

Generally speaking, I don't know how much value there would be in preventing a caravan or ore getting through to a smelter. There would likely be enough to attempt an attack if the opportunity presented itself, but not enough for hunting those caravans to make up a sognificant portion of your game time.

I don't really foresee attacking caravans to be anyone's main income source in Ashes.

This is obviously all speculation, but it's not like Archeage where if you kill someone with a pack, or take over a vehicle full of packs, you can turn them in for direct profit.

Morashtak wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

After all, if the caravan doesn't get attacked it turns into the most boring escort quest ever.

Uhm... no necessarily. I played Naval Action for a while and there was many a time when I had a cargo full of high value items. Knowing I could be attacked at any time kept me always a bit paranoid; watching chat for reports of enemy activity, keeping my head on a swivel with spyglass at the ready, planning an escape route all throughout the trip, etc. Arriving at my final port of call without being attacked filled me with immense relief.

Just because you shouldn't be attacked doesn't mean you won't be. Boring trips should be the rare exception, not the norm even when the caravan is not attacked.

This is all true - for the person that owns the materials in the caravan. For anyone else bought along as additional protection though, it will be boring if there are no attacks.

slumwav

I disagree about it being boring if no one attacks. I spent hours on another MMO riding caravans to sell trade items and ores before being attacked. Each run giving me more and more anxiety due to knowing someone will eventually catch on to my route/routes and I will have to hop off the caravan and fight. I find it fun if no one attacks or eventually will attack if I press my luck. That is the risk in an pvp MMO. They create worlds that simulate a fantasy life. If you were a bandit or wanted some materials quick and easy wouldn't you just scour the roads looking for a quick hit and get away? Or a merchant or just someone wanting to upgrade a node probably doesn't want to fight at that moment. It could also lead the player stalking the caravan back to the node and they watch and plan an attack. It is a great idea and concept that I would like to see how players take to it. Many of roleplay moments could also be had.

Ventharien

I agree, for personal caravans, those joining up as defenders are going to be a bit more bored if the are never needed. Most of these people will either be pre-grouped "Guards" waiting for caravans to set out, or people who randomly find the caravan on the road, and figure a quick escort quest essentially, is just fine.

I think Node caravans will see more action, and be a more viable target to disrupt node progression, so would be a better prospect for people who want in on fights. Though, i feel like it's going to depend on some outside systems to also determine how much we can expect to see directed caravan raiders. Like can we see where the caravan is going, and has been? And in node, can only citizens see what is necessary to finish construction of a node building?

MrPancake

Comparing to Silkroad Online. The traders and guardians ran together and both could fight thieves. After x amount of time a few bots spawned. These bots were always around the same level as the trader. This means that a guardian had an easier time killing them if he was higher level. This added to the fact that thieves tried waiting untill bots spawned. As a guardian you had to watch out for monsters, thieves and bots. Adding those 3 enemies made it actually fun.

Also, if you were moving a lot of goods the amount of bots spawned each cycle increased. From my perspective this is the best way to go.

Sarevok

I'm curious if we will be able to hire mercenary NPCs to assist with blocking roads or ambushing roads for incoming/outgoing caravans that will signal to the guild that hired them.

Ventharien

Sarevok wrote: »

I'm curious if we will be able to hire mercenary NPCs to assist with blocking roads or ambushing roads for incoming/outgoing caravans that will signal to the guild that hired them.

I'd be cool with that so long as it was player driven, and actually purchased, but i definitely wouldn't want it to just be a auto spawned npc event.

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