Mob threat detection

As some know I'm always wanting Intrepid to push the envelope. One thing that has always really irked me is mob dumbness...
When I played Secret World many years ago, they did it right. If a mob could see you it was coming after you.
In WOW this was horrid. Especially in the dungeons. Even worse for final boss battles. You all walk in the room and there is the final boss....Just sitting ready to die. I guess he hasn't heard you fighting your way to him/her, especially the mobs right outside the door. So it just sits there while you get all ready and in position...immersion killer for me. Hated it, actually. I do hope Intrepid make better use of mobs than previous mmo's with their detection.
Did this ever bother any of you or did you just accept it and plow through them?

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Comments

Wandering Mist

I feel like this is a case of pick your poison. If they made detection more "realistic" they would have to either make the mobs a lot weaker or fewer otherwise the players would be easily overwhelmed. Which would you prefer? Pick your poison.

Balrog21

I want to be on my toes, as it should be in the wild or in a dungeon.

Damokles

It would not be very "realistic" if a mob would run at you the second it saw you.
Maybe make differences between different mob species.
Humanoid mobs will attack you on sight.
Predators will attack you if you get in a 30yard range.
Herbivores will either run away or attack you if you get to 15yards.

Another thing would be, if npcs could randomly go on a patrol. Patrol npcs like predators would then attack you on sight for example.

BlackBrony

Personally for me threat doesn't make sense. it never did.
I understand people need this to enjoy the game, but it's just not logical at all.
It would be much better to have a boss that targets enemies in smart ways, considering the last few rounds of attacks.
I mean, why would a powerful enemy attack the tank who is doing little to no damage, while the other 7 members are shredding it apart?
Guess people/devs are not ready to make that type of content yet.

Wandering Mist

BlackBrony wrote: »

Personally for me threat doesn't make sense. it never did.
I understand people need this to enjoy the game, but it's just not logical at all.
It would be much better to have a boss that targets enemies in smart ways, considering the last few rounds of attacks.
I mean, why would a powerful enemy attack the tank who is doing little to no damage, while the other 7 members are shredding it apart?
Guess people/devs are not ready to make that type of content yet.

This was answered the best by Jeff Kaplan way back in 2005 at Blizzcon when talking about WoW raid design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ

You can watch the full video if you like (it's really good and still holds up today) but the main takeaway with regards to "smart" bosses is that it's not that making the boss smart would be hard. It would in fact be very easy to program the boss to ignore the tanks and go 1-shot the healers at the start of the fight. But if they did that a) it wouldn't be very fun for the players, and b) it wouldn't be possible for the players to kill the boss. To quote Jeff in the video:

"We want you to kill our raid monsters"

If the developers didn't want you to kill their bosses it would be very very easy for them to make the bosses unkillable.

BlackBrony

Wandering Mist wrote: »

If the developers didn't want you to kill their bosses it would be very very easy for them to make the bosses unkillable.

I don't mean one shot party members, that I believe is the problem with game design. Bosses shouldn't one shot anyone that is not the tank.
Lets says the rogue is doing high damage, then the boss would try to hit that member, if it's reasonable distance, or focus the next closest enemy.
Not one shot, but doing enough damage to force the rogue to use some evasive skills.
Boss could have X amount of skills that randomly uses.

It's a lot different, and it could create more dynamic raids, where everyone is on their toes and nothing just using random rotations.

Tanks could instead intercept damage, put up walls in case of projectiles to protect party members. Share their defenses, etc, etc.
So many options.

Balrog21

@Wandering Mist I remember watching that....I didn't say make them one shot us....but more dynamic.. @BlackBrony is on the right track, wow got lazy in their design mechanics...I will be putting up some thoughts on the red dragon short fight we saw in the live stream a few weeks ago. Yes, I know it's not finished but some ideas they could implement.
I know they can't make all of the mobs dynamic, but for world bosses and raid bosses I do hope they take the necessary time to make them memorable and fun. Instead of the normal tank and spank.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

it's just not logical at all.

Arguing logic in a game with fireballs and dragons is not logical.

MMO's are games.

Games have systems to make them enjoyable.

Threat/hate is a system that exists to perform a specific function.

While it is ok to have specific situations that take a system like this and turn it on it's head, if a game simply didn't have systems like this, it wouldn't be fun to play.

Games like WoW do an exceptionally poor job at making this work though (well, at everything). A good game will see the tank have a taunt that is an insult - and only works on targets that can understand a language that the tank can speak (a practical reason to learn as many languages as possible). This kind of thing - where you are actually doing a thing to make the target want to attack you - is far better than just using an ability that increases hate by X amount. The mechanics behind the two are the same though, the difference is that one has some fluff text to go with the ability description.

Other games (and this seems to be Ashes) have tanks physically put themselves or other barriers between the mob and that tanks allies, so if the mob wants to attack that rogue that is doing all of that damage, the mob would have to take the tank out first because the tank isn't letting the mob get to that rogue.

Wandering Mist

The only game that I know of that managed to make "smarter" mobs that didn't rely on a threat system was the Original Guildwars. Mobs in that game used a priority system where they would attack targets with low max health and armour first within a certain range, which was usually the healers and casters.

This completely changed the dynamic of the fights. Warriors and Paragons (the frontliners) pretty much only existed to try to bodyblock mobs to stop them from getting to the backline, which only works in tight corridors. If you were fighting in an open area they were practically useless. On top of that, healers spent the majority of their time kiting and self-healing which often lead to their teammates dying.

I would like to see another game try this kind of priority targeting system but I doubt it will happen any time soon. It was a very weird experience.

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afar

@noaani justyfying lazy game design/lazy writing with 'it's just a game' is weak.
A game could have better systems, a horror movie could have better plot, and saying things like "if main character did the most reasonable thing there would be no movie" is stupid. I saw movies when both parties did most reasonable things, these are the best kind of movies. Solution to stupid boss mechanic might be something like @BlackBrony said. @Wandering Mist and @Ikcen are also right
Magic is logical if it's a part of game world
Stupid mobs not so much, and saying that if mobs were smarter, they would be impossible to beat by WoW players, is an insult to WoW players

afar

There sure need to be stealth and other mechanics, not just pure ramboing. Far Cry 1 was interesting in that aspect. Different classes might have different ways to solve problems, and there should be possible to rampage through dungeon, but it shouldnt be only or easiest way.
If in stealth games (like hitman) you can kill everyone, on hardest difficulty, without being e sport level player, that is a bad game, not all games are like that so it's not like 'its just a game'

Noaani

afar wrote: »

A game could have better systems

Could it?

I can't think of a better system for determining what player character a mob will attack than a well designed threat list system.

It's like anything, if it's well designed it can be great, but if it's poorly designed it can be shit. I have never and will never condone a poorly done example of any system, but I also won't claim a game could have a better system if I have nothing to start that new system off with.

Every improvement I can think of to deciding which player a mob should attack would be best implimented by factoring it in to a threat list rather than attempting to create a new system.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

The only game that I know of that managed to make "smarter" mobs that didn't rely on a threat system was the Original Guildwars. Mobs in that game used a priority system where they would attack targets with low max health and armour first within a certain range, which was usually the healers and casters.

A lot of games use proximity as a metric in threat generation, though it is often too small to be noticed. GW just kind of dropped everything else that other games did.

Using lowest HP seems a little cruel to me, as the worst geared player will be the focus of attacks.

Tam Hawkins

I always thing of threat as annoyance.
So a mob looks at how annoying an enemy is depending on their Dmg, Healing and what else they do (depending on what the game aknowledges).
A tank simply stands on top of the threat list because they are professional smack talkers and really know how to make a mob angry at them.
A game with good Mob Ai would also take into account how easy a target is to take out and how important the targets role in a group is (a group with one healer is more dependant on that healer than a group with two healers).
But a good game with good Mob Ai would give its players and especially the tank to influence their treath and how the mob can go about their attack.

There are multiple realistic ways how tanks could take a mobs attention:
1: Beeing just Loud and Anoying. (Your Moma..., screaming loudly, looking flashy)
2. additionaly Beeing actually a hindrance. (Having abilities that stop the mob from approaching their target, possibly something that janks them back to the tank, throwing thinks at the mob (stones, stink bombs, seasoming bombs,..).
3. Beeing constantly in the way (Body blocking (is that a thing in AoC?), using a skill to cover the mobs target)

Picture yourself in the shoes of the mob. You have to finish a project but there is this mosquito flying around. It buzzes into your ear it lands on you and tries to suck blood and if it succeds it will leave these itchy little bulges on your body. It migth be faster to ignore the mosquito and focus on your work (killing the healer) but if it is annoying enough you start hunting it down, it will just be a few seconds... mins .... half an hour... ok where is that little bastard.

See it in that way.
A tank is not the priority target, actually the least important target. you should never focus the tank before killing everything else.
So a good Tank (for pve or pvp) needs to tools to be anannoying little p.o.s. and make everyone from mob to (enemy) player think: "Don't worry Healer, I'll get you... but first that a******."

That would not change much how Tanks play in pve in most mmorpgs already (don't know about pvp) but depending on how you make threat accumulate it either becommes a believable system or a "push one button to be on top of the threat list" abomination.

Moseph

So I just watched the May 23 video tweet from Ashes that showed the Band of Brigands (sounds like a guild name) being dispatched and noticed something. 36 seconds in Steven attacks a mob, while a fobbit who isn't very far away just sits there oblivious. If I survived an encounter like that, I would would a nice conversation with the fluffer who just let someone kick the crap out of me without even saying anything. I understand threat range and all that, but it still bothers me.

BlackBrony

I find it funny that the highest priority target (the one is most threat) is doing exactly zero damage.
How is that a threat?
Is the tank blinding you, lowering your damage, impeding movement? Nope, it's just a guy with a mechanic. It's the most meta game play ever, and it's awful.

Real mechanics would target enemies using other rules. Think something like how players behave in PvP. Do they go for tanks? No, they go for healers, and damage dealers.
That would be a most interesting raid, but well, if you do that, DPS meter lovers won't be able to crunch their numbers

Moseph

It depends... So if the "tank" is mitigating the damage you can dish out or blocking you from stopping the ones that are hurting you, wouldn't you want to take that person out first?

It's also similar to an armored vehicle. If contacts are using an armored vehicle for cover as they move and fire on your position, what do you do? Do you fire at the people when you can, or take out the vehicle?

At least that's the way I justify it in my head.

Plateau

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

I think ideally, for a good mix of realism and fun gameplay, a game should have a threat system with a lot of different hooks.

This is basically my thoughts right here.

The actual system is fine, it's just that some games don't take the system far enough.

Hate generating and reducing abilities should be the backbone of the system - but that is purely so that players have direct control of the situation.

From there, damage should be the next major consideration, followed by healing and buffing. Sadly, this is where most games leave it.

To me, proximity should also be a major factor, but there should also be a generic "annoyance" factor in there as well. If a tank is physically standing in the way of a mob, that mob should then want to take on that tank even more than the sum total of that tanks other hate generating abilities would suggest - because the tank is preventing the mob from attacking the target it wants. As such, there would be a difference between who the mob wants to attack, and who the mob is going to attack.

I also like the idea of different mob types having different priorities of generating hate - but only if there is an in game explanation on this (a lore book on different animals fighting habits, as an example). This could be something as obvious and profound as wild animals always wanting to attack who ever is closest to their young, regardless of what damage they may be taking on them self (and those young should all be seasonal as well) - or it could be as subtle as a particular mob type (or specific encounter) hating a specific color and so generating significantly more hate towards anyone wearing that color.

Could also be interesting to see intelligent races have different hate/thread gains towards different player races - there could be a massive number of reasons for this to happen, and could make both combat and the games lore more interesting.

With the group size and potential for support classes in Ashes, it would also be possible to implement an EQ system of reinforcement. If you take on a group of enemies, there is a good chance that one or more of them will run over to the next group of enemies and get them to join the fight - the best way of stopping this involved CC'ing that runner.

This has the dual purpose of making CC almost essential to group content (which in turn means players know how to deal with CC better), but it also gives players an immersion based reason as to why that next group of mobs over didn't help - they were waiting for someone to come running asking for help, but no one ever did, so they just didn't bother (not perfect, but requires less of a suspension of disbelief than many other things in an MMO).

BlackBrony

leonerdo wrote: »

I

Btw, this isn't about DPS meters. (Although, combat trackers can be helpful when determining how the tank lost aggro.) Nor does it have anything to do with PvP. (Obviously, real players are going to fight more intelligently than NPCs.)

The first half of you comment was fine. But the last half is ridiculous.

All I'm saying is that threat makes no sense and gives players control they shouldn't have. You're fighting a boss that needs 20 people to kill, and that boss is only targeting the only thing that is not killing them.

DPS meters and threat/hate are all about control. Players should not have control during the battle. Battles should be chaotic and ever changing.
Sure, some strategies might work better, but no. Control should not be a thing during raids.
I know people won't like it, but it would be much more interesting imo.

Hate is a meta game term that makes no sense, it might be the standard, but if players had no control, would be much better.

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