Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Some may not agree with me but there are some pretty cool fights in the Fate series I really like which I think could be easily introduced in some way, shape or form: Start at 4:35 of the video
This is true, but I think it is probably safe to say that the OP wants Ashes to exclude things that are generally only found in anime, rather than excluding all things found in anime.
These are vastly different statements, and I have to admit that I agree with one of them.
If you can find me some popular classic examples of western fantasy literature that are not intended to emulate anime, and involve people wearing cats ears as a general clothing choice, then as far as I am concerned, cats ears in Ashes would be fine. However, if the only examples of that specific clothing choice that can be found are from anime, or are inspired by anime, then I personally think that is where Intrepid should draw a line - arbitrary as it is.
I think out of everything I read this helped clarify the point/issues the best for me. Thanks for that!
Wording it like that got me thinking about things like "what have I seen in anime before anime" and I realized I hadn't seen things like cat ears being in other forms of media before it became more popular, aside from when hermione turned into that gross cat thing with the potion mix up. And maybe catwoman (but I've never seen or read it so I don't know much about her)
Same with the "**** girl is actually nine billion years old" trend because I think showing stuff like that to a wider and mainstream western audience would not sit as well.
Those two are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but a lot of the other tropes have been in western media for a while, just under a different name like isekai or harems for example.
What is the “good stuff” being left out? And keep in mind, the OP is talking about traits that would be instantly recognizable as anime tropes and would remind players of Japanese animation, not anything and everything that has appeared in anime. Going back to SAO which I mentioned before, let’s take Kirito’s sword the Elucidator:
While familiar to fans of that particular series, it is a fairly normal-looking sword, not badly proportioned, and it would fit in fine with the game’s aesthetic. I doubt there’d be much objection to the inclusion of a sword like that. Precisely because it doesn’t fit any anime tropes and doesn’t immediately remind anyone of anime.
I’m curious what specifically we’d be missing out on in your mind.
But if we are talking classic literature, I mean the cats musical exists.
Jack J. London, while not making his characters human has written from the perspective of animals but with a human like expression.
Kavka uses it as a Thematik metaphor.
Superhero comics have used animal traits and visualization of them forever.
I don't know what you are looking for but yeah I wouldn't say it's an Easter exclusive phenomenon.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I'm personally fine with anthropomorphic animals if there is a reason given in the lore behind it. I wouldn't expect it to be done in a Disney or Broadway Musical fashion though.
I'm also fine with people taking on aesthetic traits of an animal if they have some of the physical traits of the game - again as long as there is a lore based reason behind it.
However, this is a long way away from what some anime seems to do (coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't pay anime any attention).
If this is what anime does, then their execution of it is what I take issue with.
Some of them long running pop/nerd culture.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Yeah, but they aren't really what we are talking about, are they?
If that sounds insanely exaggerated, like no MMO would be that ridiculous, I suggest you log onto TERA Online. I didn’t even mention that she rides a duck with an afro and headphones.
agreed that would be out of place in ashes and I think 90% of people here would agree with you but counting everything connected to anime/manga just seems like a waste.
Yeah, with the ren' kai being Asian/Japanese themed, you aren't going to be able to escape anime similarities, since many animes display authentic traditions, dresses, weapons, etc. As well as various myths and monsters. While sure, there are several sub sects in some animes that would not be appropriate in what IS is trying to put together here, Super sexualized demi humans, extreme violence or gore, and cringe worthy old lecherous guys, to name a few.
But i think just cutting any theme that's ever been in an anime is just slowing your creative potential. Why limit your story telling?
All that being said, I don’t think anything that has been said by the developers, or shown in concept art or streams would hint that they are open to it. They seem pretty firm in their aesthetic. Mr. Stufferton (the teddy bear mount for those lucky enough to have never seen him) is the worst exception and seems like an anomaly. The aesthetic for AoC seems to strive for a spectrum between grim and horrific, and inspiring and beautiful, with a plausible level of epic grandeur over all of it. I doubt we have anything to worry about, and I haven’t seen too many people pushing hard for silly tropes on the boards (aside from one old argument about giant swords on a previous incarnation of this board).
I still say some, things could be worked in. as you said ashes does have a grim vibe but so does warhammer a very him and dark universe that has anime/manga content. just look at the ninja rats
Uhm yeah they are exactly what we are talking about. Spiderman literally shoots spiderwebs. Wtf is Poison Ivy? You have beastshapers, and all degrees of animal transformation. If you want to tell me that animals with human traits are entirely different from humans with animal traits then I don't know where you would draw the line. It's on the same scale of non human.
Personification of concepts and anthropomorphism is a classic in literature. Greek/ Roman mythology is full of crosses of humans with animals, Egyption mythology anyone? Everyone should be familiar with at least those and they have been used in all degrees of more/less human throughout history. How is that any different from what "anime" does?
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
oh my god...i had never seen him before...my heart. What a precious little bebe. If only I had been born to a rich wizarding family.
I had posted a reply to this earlier but I think one of the anime terms might be deemed a bad word because I think it got flagged and saved to my drafts instead. But I think this quote helped to clarify the main point a little better. If I'm not mistaken it's less "anime is bad, burn it" and more dependent on what the source material is that made it popular.
Like if we look at elves/pointy ear people, they have heavy western influence like dungeons and dragons, lord of the rings, or star trek to name a few and even though they are popular in Anime now, they've been popularized in western media for a substantial amount of time that they're not uncommon to see.
However, on the other hand the hot topic of cat girls/ears may have been prevalent in a few places of popular media such as cat-woman, cats the musical, or when hermione becomes that gross cat creature after the potion mixup, it was always small or niche cases as opposed to anime where you can find a cat person(usually a female who goes nya or something) in almost every(a lot of) show nowadays.
But I don't think source material should dictate what content is used. I think it should matter more about how it is implemented and presented. I mean there's plenty of popular western trends I'd rather not see.
Do you mean Skaven assassins or are there actual ninjas now? Assassins could be inspired from several Eastern/Western cultures. In any case, I wouldn't call ninjas 'anime' content; anime has ninjas but didn't invent them.
I don't see AoC having specifically anime-inspired (not Japanese-inspired) costumes and accessories; just doesn't fit anywhere.
Its people wearing cat ear headbands and such that I'm not fine with, or the over-exaggerated facial expressions (and especially the eyes - that is what instantly puts me off anime in general), or the girl-in-sailor-outfit trope.
This isn't a complaint about all things anime - it is saying that there are a few things that are only really found in anime (or are directly inspired by anime) don't belong in Ashes. It honestly isn't even just anime as far as I am concerned - I said in an earlier post that I wouldn't expect to see a Disney style anthropomorphic animal either, because it would fit in to Ashes about as well as an anime waifu with gigantic eyes, blond pigtails, sailors outfit and a miniskirt that barely registers as a belt.
Now, anthropomorphic animals are fine, if done in a way that fits in with Ashes - which means the Disney way of doing them is out (if we have a walking, talking duck, I expect pants). Likewise, if there is a sub-species of Tulnar that have a bit of cat in them, and so these people have cat ears - that's cool. But a head slot item that looks like cat ears?... nope.
This is why it's so hard to talk with you, this is where we started, I point a superhero comic specifically and it's not enough somehow. I use all gradiants of western culture to show it's not an anime thing, but somehow nothing is the same, it's not what we are talking about. What's the lore reason behind why batman has a costume with "bat" ears. It's aesthetics nothing else. Cat woman has no cat ears, she just fashioned her costume around her obsession.
You think it's common in anime for characters to run around with cat ear headbands? I can't even think of one where this is a thing.
"a miniskirt that barely registers as belts" Have you gone out of your house in the last 15 years during summer? That's not anime that's ..."fashion".
None of it springs from anime or is commonly found there. Yeah you can find it there if you look around the same way you can find it in any other medium as I have provided plenty of examples already.
Literally the only thing in that sentence that is used quite regular in anime are bigger eyes. Especially in drama driven animes since it's such a good tool to convey emotions and that has been picked up more and more in western too, because it is a damned good tool.
Whether they emulate anime back in 1980/90 or they just thought it's a good idea isn't something I can provide any insight in. Look at the little mermaid, Darwing Duck, Hey Arnold!, Dexter's Laboratory, Toy story. would you consider that normal eye size? Have you watched anything at all that came out in the last 30 years?
Aside from his premise being obviously biased, this is why I wanted BCG to clarify what exactly he means with "anime" because right now as you have so valiantly demonstrated both of you seem to have little to no insight in what is common in anime (or any medium really) that would borderline define anime. All you have provided are some memed examples that crop up from time to time that are getting exaggerated by people that aren't interested in the medium what so ever. None of it springs from anime or are anime exclusive aspects by any stretch of the word.
I think this is funny, i looks funny posted like that, but it's completely ripped out of context and memed to death/ used to highlight how stupid anime is.
I really don't want to defend anime/manga and all the other forms of "non western" medium, either you watch it or you don't, it's not really any of my concern, but this ignorance and bias is why we get such shitty choices of simulcasted shows. This is why we get an "explanatory" video from Netflix about "what is anime" that is so cringe worthy I could cut myself on all the edge just by watching. It's misrepresenting and robs you of a treasure trove of stories told you can't find in other mediums because the general consensus of western publisher is that no one wants to read such stories. Ironic that manga is now in the position of the looked down upon nerd culture of the last 30 years called comics.
I'm definitely out now.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Those things are not the things we are talking about. Catwoman doesn't walk around Gotham all day wearing cat ears as a fashion choice. What she wears is designed for practicality first, with a very small amount of thematic flair added to top it off. It isn't "just" this, this is just one of many very visible aspects of anime that many people simply detest.
While you may not know any anime characters that run around with headbands, that is hardly worth noting when a simple google search turns up a whole lot of exactly what we are talking about. This isn't a "non-western" thing either.
As I've said twice - three times now - Disney type characters would be out of place in Ashes as well, that is about as western as you can get. Further, Asian themes other than anime may well fit in perfectly with Ashes - and I'd happily argue that they would (there is, believe it or not, Eastern culture that is not anime).
I'd very much appreciate you cease with this kind of insinuation. It is neither warranted nor appropriate.
If you want to simply say that we are arguing against the memed examples of anime, then that's fine, all that does is mean that we all know what we are talking about.
I mean, I've said it isn't everything anime, it isn't even just anime. I'm not sure what more to tell you.
Things that don't belong in Ashes don't belong in Ashes.
Like I said most shallow exposure only with no idea what actually is in anime.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
As I've said many times in this thread, this is one example of things that I, and presumably others, don't want to see.
It doesn't matter if it's anime, it doesn't matter if it's Disney, it doesn't matter if it's DC or Marvel, it is something we don't want to see. I don't care if it was in one show, no shows or every show - it doesn't belong in Ashes. It also doesn't matter if it is only fan art - as we have been saying all along we are also tanking about things along these lines that are INSPIRED by anime - not just things that are directly from it.
I'll be honest, your argument here seems to be little more than a bit of rage that people are - in your view - attacking anime. You seem mostly upset that we don't have as in depth a knowledge of a thing that we obviously don't like as you have of it, which is just odd.
Are you trying to say that you think a headband with cats ears *DOES* belong in Ashes? Because that is the point we are making here and you seem to be trying really hard to argue against it.
I only made apparent that the examples given, are not an anime thing. No more no less pointing out your ignorance in the topic.
That you can't follow contextual points you yourself made has always been a problem and the main reason I avoid all topics you are in.
Bcg makes a well reasoned point of his experience and I can agree there. There are trends, maybe sparked through eastern media maybe just popularized in a Manga styled format that are quiet honestly disgusting.
The term **** is a good example of how a normal everyday word was bastardized for a quite borderline illegal trend.
Which is btw a term stemming from a French novel where the now commonly used phrase has the same meaning. Japan's lolitas are something entirely different. Worth a look into that fashion trend. It's something pretty imo.
Sexualization of underage children shouldn't be a topic we have to talk about to know that it's tabboo and belongs nowhere.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Oh no, I've been reading forums wrong apparently
But yeah I agree with this sentiment. I think it's turned more into a debate on what's influenced what, but in the end who cares. The design team is going to make an aesthetically pleasing world that fits in with the written lore and world building they already have. Debating an entire art form for one or two niche points isn't really constructive to anything.
Like what you like.
Don't like what you don't like.
Play the game or don't play the game.
Because in the end this ain't even close to being out yet. So go chew an ice cube.