Let's talk about power creep

Yeah, it's kinda early to talk about such a distant topic but, if the game wants to achieve success, it will come as natural process of implementing new items in the game.

So, my questions are:
-Will the game take a more aggressive approach, bringing several new powerful items to chase but making the old equipments useless for the new content, (e.g., WoW)?
-A soft power creep approach, adding a bunch of new items, but the power is the same or very close to the ones who already exists (e.g., GW2)?
-Or something in between, in which there are some new items that are better than the current ones, but the very powerful ones of the current/old content are still pretty good (e.g., BDO)?

This kind of feature is important to have in mind on how to implement it, because it will dictate what kind of niche of players the game will embrace more, towards the hardcores or casuals.

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Noaani

This is a topic that has been discussed several times before.

The conclusion seems to be that Intrepid won't go the WoW route (this is a sentence that can be applied to almost any aspect of Ashes).

Other than that though, there is no real way to know which way is best for the mto go until we see how the power divide looks 6 - 9 months after launch.

HazardNumberSeven

As long as we don't go the WoW route I think I will be happy.

I'm pleased with how gear worked in ArcheAge (ignoring the p2w aspects). I could miss out on years of content, hop back on, and my gear still wasn't vendor trash. Was it good? Not really, but I was still able to participate in PvP and use my old accomplishments to more easily get the new stuff, I was still LIGHTYEARS ahead of someone who didn't do the things I did.

Compare that to WoW where I am permanently behind my friends if I even miss a single daily/weekly thanks to constant time-gating, or a patch comes out and it's as if I've never even played the game before because my entire painful grind for gear has been utterly and completely invalidated. I hate that. I actually have hate for it as in " extreme dislike or disgust.

U5urPator

A progression system like we have it in games like WoW or FFXIV is contraproductive in terms of PvP balance in my opinion.
If you want balanced and fair fights between players / guilds you need to define a cap and you can't really change the cap without destroying the power balance of certain guilds / players.
In my opinion GW2 has the perfect system for a PvP oriented game in terms of gear.
But, on the other hand, we already know to a certain degree, that this system won't be entirely integrated as they plan to add legendary gear components that are insanely rare or even gear that might be unique.

Noaani

U5urPator wrote: »

If you want balanced and fair fights between players / guilds you need to define a cap and you can't really change the cap without destroying the power balance of certain guilds / players.

Who said anything about wanting balanced and fair fights?

If I am defending my caravan full of a months worth of refining raw materials, you think I want a fair fight? I want as many people as well geared as possible defending my shit.

The idea in Ashes isn't for balanced PvP. It is for PvP that actually matters.

Covid19

noaani wrote: »

U5urPator wrote: »

If you want balanced and fair fights between players / guilds you need to define a cap and you can't really change the cap without destroying the power balance of certain guilds / players.

Who said anything about wanting balanced and fair fights?

If I am defending my caravan full of a months worth of refining raw materials, you think I want a fair fight? I want as many people as well geared as possible defending my shit.

The idea in Ashes isn't for balanced PvP. It is for PvP that actually matters.

Oh and possibly some balanced pvp because noone likes getting one shot by a single player when they're the same level outside of possibly the player one shotting people but even then that gets boring quick unless your making irl money out of it

Noaani

Covid19 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

U5urPator wrote: »

If you want balanced and fair fights between players / guilds you need to define a cap and you can't really change the cap without destroying the power balance of certain guilds / players.

Who said anything about wanting balanced and fair fights?

If I am defending my caravan full of a months worth of refining raw materials, you think I want a fair fight? I want as many people as well geared as possible defending my shit.

The idea in Ashes isn't for balanced PvP. It is for PvP that actually matters.

Oh and possibly some balanced pvp because noone likes getting one shot by a single player when they're the same level outside of possibly the player one shotting people but even then that gets boring quick unless your making irl money out of it

That isn't going to happen in Ashes.

HazardNumberSeven

The world was not built on fair fights.

Choosing to fight fairly rather than at an advantage is just foolish. I will attack my enemy when I am strong and they are weak and I am confident I can win. Sometimes you have no choice and sometimes there are other things to consider, but as a general rule it's best to pick fights you can win and avoid fights you can't.

Covid19 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

U5urPator wrote: »

If you want balanced and fair fights between players / guilds you need to define a cap and you can't really change the cap without destroying the power balance of certain guilds / players.

Who said anything about wanting balanced and fair fights?

If I am defending my caravan full of a months worth of refining raw materials, you think I want a fair fight? I want as many people as well geared as possible defending my shit.

The idea in Ashes isn't for balanced PvP. It is for PvP that actually matters.

Oh and possibly some balanced pvp because noone likes getting one shot by a single player when they're the same level outside of possibly the player one shotting people but even then that gets boring quick unless your making irl money out of it

Characters of the same level are being designed so that you can never be more than 50% stronger than each other. This means if one character has crap gear and another has the best possible gear, they can still only become 50% stronger than you. At least, that's how it was explained to me.

Songcaller

50% is a massive advantage. In older games, PvP Armour meant that Tier 3 PvP Armour literally made you unkillable by Tier 1 PvP Armour Wearers in a 1v1. We do not have knowledge of how the stats will relate. While we have no PvP Armour we do have PvX Armour so the problem could be even worse for PvP.

50% Means in a 2v2 the fight would effectively be 3v2 in terms of +50% if its two maxed players verse non-maxed players.

Furthermore, we do not know how Sieges will be handled in terms of who the defenders will be. A Node could face 250 Maxed Out Characters but will have a mismatch of defenders. I do not see how Nodes will be able to limit defenders based on Gear. The reason being, siege mechanics are a staple in game design. Those who are active at the time of a siege would be the defenders.

If the defenders can't field their most geared people then people will leave the game. The reason being will be because Nodes won't be able to be defended against Maxed Out Attackers due to the sporadic style of defenders. If the Maxed Out Players are always selected in Node Defence then the problem would be minimalised. For Castle Sieges it will be maxed players verses maxed players. It will be interesting to see how the live game will play.

Crafters will be required to maximise Node Defenders, which will hopefully mean people will be able to Maximise their effectiveness in order to defend the Node. However, most crafters won't run at deficits for long. It will be interesting to see how the economy will unfold. It will become very competitive to field the best equipped warriors and crafters will have allegiances. When NDA lifts we will know more.

Edit: In effect, with +50% Advantage, 250vs250 would be 375vs250 if its maxed out players verses nominal geared players. I think I may have to become a Crafter after all. I can see why they say they won't balance 1v1 (regardless of the Hard Counters).

Lafi

just want to add this in also:

"Power creep is a balance issue... When it comes to gear progression specifically, the idea is to create an open market that is not heavily dependent on soulbound items; and having many item sinks and gold sinks within that economy that allows for the potential degradation and loss of assets within that closed economy; and not introduce items from the market that companies put in from a pay-to-win perspective or from a pay-to-convenience perspective that undermines the economy that players have built. That is a huge mistake that companies have made in the past and that lends to the imbalancing of what designers maybe have actually balanced well."
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance#Power_creep

Songcaller

More to the point, some people are quibbling about enchanting RNG, Lafi, yet for a +50% overall advantage, who wouldn't want to risk a little RNG? lol

Edit: RNG is only present in over-enchanting*

Double Edit: Would only be +50% overall advantage dependant on other factors compared to a standard setup with no flares.

Treble Edit: I do also hope the +50% is hearsay and actual advantage maxed out is not such a substantial number.

BlackBrony

Also remember, I think they said they will balance around groups, not individual classes.
So probably healers will have a hard time in PvP if alone

Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[3]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[3] – Steven Sharif

Songcaller

I can appreciate they will balance around groups, but, if the whole group is maxed out compared to the group they are fighting is not all maxed out, do you think the balance will be present?

unknown

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