Will [Should] End-Game Content Stay Relevant with Expansion Releases?

How will they plan on balancing the relevance of previous end-game content once they add expansions? I ask because I've seen this is being marketed as a sandbox mmorpg NOT a theme-park mmorpg like WoW. When I think of Sandbox, things like Oldschool Runescape come to mind, and in games like that we have most "end-game" or poweful boss items/gear stay relevant one way or another. Whether through unique effects that stay useful, different allocations of stats like single target or aoe abilities, etc. In comparison, a theme-park game like WoW has end-game gear that immediately becomes irrelevant when a new expansion comes out, as it's higher level and significantly stronger equipment.

Also, for discussion, I'm curious what different people would prefer and how it could be implemented for Ashes of Creation.

TL;DR: Will [Should] old gear/bosses be useless when new ones come out?

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Aardvark

MangoRinds wrote: »

I had sort of a big question, hopefully the scope isn't too broad but does anyone know how they plan on balancing the relevance of previous end-game content once they add expansions? I ask because I've seen this is being marketed as a sandbox mmorpg NOT a theme-park mmorpg like WoW. When I think of Sandbox, things like Oldschool Runescape come to mind, and in games like that we have most "end-game" or poweful boss items/gear stay relevant one way or another. Whether through unique effects that stay useful, different allocations of stats like single target or aoe abilities, etc. In comparison, a theme-park game like WoW has end-game gear that immediately becomes irrelevant when a new expansion comes out, as it's higher level and significantly stronger equipment.

The reason optional expansions have better gear is it is a way of making that optional expansion be non-optional

MangoRinds

@Aardvark I do agree. If you think of it, using WoW as an example, the expansion Legion followed by Battle for Azeroth. Who would play Legion content (aside from leveling or collecting) when the max level goes fro 110 to 120 and you are like 100x more powerful. There would be no guilds recruiting for Legion content, or anyone playing hardcore in Legion. The "MAIN" content would only be Battle for Azeroth. So I'm definitly curious how they plan on dealing with this.

Iversithy

Since bosses drop materials you have a great foundation to keep them relevant on content releases.

MangoRinds

@Iversithy Yeah that is super interesting. I do think it could still go both ways. You could be "required" to re-visit previous bosses to finish certain recipes, but will they just be farm fests because you are far more poweful? What would those new recipes be?

Aardvark

Iversithy wrote: »

Since bosses drop materials you have a great foundation to keep them relevant on content releases.

unless the expainsion bosses drop a higher grade of mat required for the new higher tier blueprints

Iversithy

Aardvark wrote: »

unless the expainsion bosses drop a higher grade of mat required for the new higher tier blueprints

If the new content offers blueprints that require old and new bosses you can keep all content relevant. The bigger hurdle will be the power level of newly introduced items.

darthaden

Old nodes can be kept relevant through gathering mats being limited to specific nodes and requiring old mats to still be used in new crafting recipes. Same with mob drops. Black Desert does this and it works pretty well to keep players spread out around the whole world.

Aardvark

Iversithy wrote: »

Aardvark wrote: »

unless the expainsion bosses drop a higher grade of mat required for the new higher tier blueprints

If the new content offers blueprints that require old and new bosses you can keep all content relevant. The bigger hurdle will be the power level of newly introduced items.

By releavent you mean make them farm a whole several hr dungeon for 1 mat that can only be gotten there with 0 chance of any gear drops worth having due to it being old content....you can also make a level 1-10 zone in a normal game relavent then by having a mob there that is the only thing low enough to drop 1 super low level mat in a legendary recipie

MangoRinds

Yeah that's the only part of that theory that makes me nervous. It's like, sure you could require going back two expansions to kill a black dragon and get black scales to craft part of these gloves for the new expansion. However, if the gear is better, then it's like a forced relevancy as it would just be one shotting old content to do new content. It would have to make sense.

Valento92

Everything tied to cosmetics could potentially keep old content relevant. Say you have materials to craft an item with an unique appearance or function, this item would just exist in this content patch, therefore there would be an appeal to revisit "old" content to obtain it. We usually think of replayability with vertical progression in mind, but if we plan it with horizontal progression in mind it tastes differently. At least that's the most reasonable approach I can think of...

MangoRinds

Personally, I feel like it's probably going to be just like you described @Valento92 and I am totally happy with that. I know they are keeping a lot of what simply works with MMORGs like the Trinity system, etc. I do wonder though, BECAUSE there is a node system that revolves around player driven content, what will happen to the old content and nodes when those zones are only roamed for appearances. WoW is too easy of an example because people LOVE transmog runs. However, each old dungeon and raid isn't really done constantly like you would see in new content. No one would be spending all their time in old zones for that kind of stuff. Would old Node zones become familiar hubs for people to hang out in, and nothing else?

Lotharr

Or they make the gear creep less drastic. For ex. 100 str on a BIS glove at launch, 105 str on a glove in 12 months. etc. Also they could do something with scaling the difficulty (dungeons/raids then - the instanced ones), not only with how you perform, but also considering gear score, ofc with a better drop table then since you're further progressed in the game. With the 103 nodes and forever changing dungeons you could have endless options..

What I havent heard is, and it might be something, is a maximum life span for nodes. For ex: 12-18 months for a metropolis. I say this because if a guild/alliance can save a node forever when they're too strong with defending - there wouldnt be other nodes advancing and providing more/different/new content.

WMC51

I always hate when end game dungeons and gear becomes 100% useless as soon as something new comes out.

I feel like this would be against their vision with attacking and changing nodes. Hopefully they control gear creep so it is still cool to get that new sword finally but it isn't a tooth pick as soon as something new comes out.

MangoRinds

Interesting ideas. So you would say gear progression to make other items EVENTUALLY obsolete is okay as long as it takes a more gradual approach? I'm not sure the exact numbers, but I think WoW has a 15% power increase with each raid release, let alone expansions, and that's all it takes to ruin the previous gear, so it would have to be at least smaller than that, plus you would have so many different tiers of gear to balance with power leaps, like dungeon vs epic dungeon vs world boss vs raids.

To me (this could be because it's ingrained in my brain) I do feel like the natural progression for MMOs is to have old bosses and content eventually be one-shot grind fests for collectors, as gear just gets stronger and stronger.

I do think the power leaps small would be super neat. Like if you went from having a hard time killing a boss with 8 players in the current expansion with max gear, then the next expac drops and you could sort of do it with 6, and then 4, 2, etc. Eventually becoming grind-able but taking a way longer time.

Wandering Mist

It is incredibly difficult to keep old content relevant when expansions or updates are brought in. Usually it requires there to be a reason to do the old content that doesn't rely on gear rewards. I don't know what Intrepid plan to do for this or whether they will take the WoW route and just accept that old content will become redundant.

WMC51

Wandering Mist wrote: »

It is incredibly difficult to keep old content relevant when expansions or updates are brought in. Usually it requires there to be a reason to do the old content that doesn't rely on gear rewards. I don't know what Intrepid plan to do for this or whether they will take the WoW route and just accept that old content will become redundant.

I think the node system is what can keep old content relevant.

Yes I think new raid gear should replace old raid gear but I don't think day 1 new quest should replace previous raid gear. It should be gradual.

The reason it is how it is is to keep people from jumping right into new raids. The node system already solves this issue. You have to level up the node to get there so no skipping content

Xrael

Wandering Mist wrote: »

It is incredibly difficult to keep old content relevant when expansions or updates are brought in. Usually it requires there to be a reason to do the old content that doesn't rely on gear rewards. I don't know what Intrepid plan to do for this or whether they will take the WoW route and just accept that old content will become redundant.

Good point. This will definitely be an issue Intrepid will have to deal with in the future.

VmanGman

I really hope that previous content stays relevant even through future expansions. I believe that this is especially important in AoC because content is unlocked by nodes and it would suck if you unlocked some content that was no longer relevant.

Of course there's more depth to it that what I just described, but I do believe that this issue will be something that needs to be looked at in AoC specifically.

MangoRinds

Well the whole reason I bring this up is because it isn't your average basic MMORPG. Very ambitious with multiple new concepts, and bringing change to an old genre will definitely come with new challenges. Like many of you have mentioned, its even more involved because there are huge time investments to nodes. You are practically building a civilization from the ground up. If a new expansion came out and you were to just say "okay guess my city is in a dead zone," it could be a pretty weird transition.

The ideas I've seen here gave me one idea though... Most MMORGs struggle with gaining new players at some point or another, after launch and a certain time period of running. So I know there is a big importance on accessibility and newcomer friendliness. But, wouldn't it be interesting if it weren't efficient (or if there weren't really many ways) to skip old content to get to new content? Like WoW for example, new Expansion comes out and you make a new character and jump into new questing and right into new content, or if you make a new character there is no real need to do old end-game content, just hit the max level and boom. What if you couldn't just jump to new end content and questing if you were brand new, or if you make alts, etc. Of course when you are leveling from scratch you will see other players leveling with you, and that keeps it fresh and keeps low level mats and gear relevant every time, as well has having a steady population there. What if end-game content was that way too? You had to climb the tier lists of dungeons/raids to eventually land at whatever the new content was (Whether its through soft requirements like you need decent gear to do new stuff). Only example I can think of is doing crappy dungeons to get decent gear to do epic dungeons to get better gear to do early tier raids to get better gear to do end raids. So that, but needed throughout each expansions content.

At the very least, it would keep old content relevant, because people would still need to learn the old content and progress every time new people come into the game or you level an alt. Otherwise you would have to get people to carry you constantly. Or you know, some iteration of that idea?

That being said, I do have a lot of faith in the team they have built, and I'm really curious to see the direction they choose. One thing we can probably all agree on is that Steven's philosophies on MMORPs so far have been solid, so I'm sure it is something he and the team have at least thought about.

GrayingGamer

Being able to solo old group content is a great way to recycle that content - keeping it relevant in at least some ways for at least some of the playerbase.

I do think there is something to be said for not making old content just completely faceroll, though. It's immersion breaking to one-shot dragons and old-gods just because they're a few years old.

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