A lifelong hardcore raider's plea to the devs

I am in love with everything I have heard about Ashes thus far, except for one thing has me concerned. I tried getting my opinion heard through the AMA but my question quickly got buried. I also tried DMing Steven directly on discord, but i quickly realized he is probably being spammed there. And that is your stance on damage meters.

To start off some background on me, I have been playing MMOs since the early 2000s including (WoW(for 13 years), Runescape, Rift, Wildstar, Star Wars the Old Republic, Albion Online, Planetside 1+2, Guild Wars 1+2, Everquest, DC Universe Online, and Star Wars Galaxies, etc.). At every point in my MMO experiences I have been driven to be "the best", I strive for perfection and I'm not happy until I'm perfect (we can talk about my inadequacy issues some other time). I have hardcore raided in every game that allowed it, and if not raiding I'd go hard in some other aspect (PvP). However, hardcore raiding is what keeps dragging me back to WoW, 13 years of the game and I say it sucks all the time, but one thing they got right, is raiding. My current MMO is Classic WoW where I'm part of a top world speedrunning guild. I share your philosophies with addons as far as boss addons/auction house addons/pvp spy addons (I could not care less about any addon except the 1, the damage meter). You stating you're against dps meters is daunting to a person like me, especially when I am so excited for this game.

That being said, I hear and understand your concerns that you made in the TimTheTatman interview. The toxic environment it creates between players of different skill levels, and the aid it gives during a live raid setting. I had a few ideas, which may not be fully fleshed out or may be just bad ideas, that could meet somewhere in the middle.

A) A toggleable dps meter, that could be controlled maybe by each individual, or perhaps the raid leader, or guild leader. So guilds that want a meter, can have one, ones that don't want a meter don't need to use it.

B) A plain old threat meter, you can get a rough idea of who's top and bottom, but would, by nature, be unreliable to judge performance by due to skill threat modifiers.

C) Combat logging, something wow does right as well, the advanced combat log is exported to a text file that can then later be uploaded to a 3rd party site where you can analyze performance, and have leaderboards

D) An after-action report, something built in game, similar to the combat logging. After the raid is finished you can analyze and scrutinize each players performance (and hopefully a leaderboard is included in there)

E) Idea from /u/Hymnosi
- A target dummy with it's own built in dps meter, that way you can test/theorycraft/prove you are decent, without it affecting live gameplay.

If you took the time to read this crazy long message, you are amazing. I will play this game regardless, and will enjoy the shit out of it. Just maybe a little bit less than if i could compete globally with all the other parse nerds out there. I'm sure with some work we can find a happy medium where the parse nerds and the casuals are both satisfied.

Much love

PS: I did my best to keep that short, but when you're passionate about something you tend to get long winded

I made the same post on reddit, feel free to discuss on the platform of your choosing
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/i2gmd0/a_lifelong_hardcore_raiders_plea_to_the_devs/?

Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    I dont see them changing their mind
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • BlockinBlockin Member
    I don't think their mind is made up at all, they want to hear what the community has to say, which is why I am saying this. Steven may be against the idea, but it doesn't mean there isn't a middle ground to please both sides of the gamer hardcore/casual spectrum
  • https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat#Combat_logs

    As to if you can export them and the detail of them I don't know.
  • BlockinBlockin Member
    plusbrian wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat#Combat_logs

    As to if you can export them and the detail of them I don't know.

    Thank you, I had not seen confirmation of a combat log until now, it's a start
  • Read the wiki. It really helps.
  • 3am3am Member
    I'm torn DPS meters are great for rating yourself vs others but at the same time they ruin in game creativity, especially in a game with so much customization I'd hate to have it witled down to DPS/HPS charts.
  • All of you that demand a dps meter tend to forget one thing, its not a wow-alike pve fiesta with 90% instanced content, your best performance on a raid will be determined not by how high your dps is, but how well you can contest the raid to even start dpsing it.
    The dps meter in my opinion would be an entirely pointless adition to the game in its current state and its future visions, as you probably wont even utilize it in real situations.
    Take a look at Archeage and Lineage2, which that game is based on, neither of them utilizes a damage meter, because it has no use in an open world, non-instanced environment. You might be "the best" in properly executing 1-2-3 rotations to do the most dps, but what does it even matter if a more pvp oriented raid with less dps potential just runs you down before you can even touch the boss?

    I am a strict neutral on the case, i dont care if it gets added or denied, however i just dont see any real-life use for that thing.
  • No DPS meter/logs, please and thank you.
  • I think what you are asking for is Mods. Is that correct?
  • It's not going to be useful. WoW players just want it so they can reward based on the statistics it holds in masterloot completely ignoring that the game will have classes that won't do well on them.
    1UL8RIb.gif
  • I really like FF14's approach to DPS Meters.

    Having DPS Parsers are completely against TOS, but of course min/maxers are gonna find a way to incorporate them anyways. FF14 doesn't hunt people down for having them.. But if you act like an elitist jerk and start bashing other people for their performance, well, that's a bannable offense. As it should be.

    Use it if you really need to be sweaty, but don't make the community toxic.
    yX0AECs.png
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 3
    Blockin wrote: »
    I am in love with everything I have heard about Ashes thus far, except for one thing has me concerned. I tried getting my opinion heard through the AMA but my question quickly got buried. I also tried DMing Steven directly on discord, but i quickly realized he is probably being spammed there. And that is your stance on damage meters.

    To start off some background on me, I have been playing MMOs since the early 2000s including (WoW(for 13 years), Runescape, Rift, Wildstar, Star Wars the Old Republic, Albion Online, Planetside 1+2, Guild Wars 1+2, Everquest, DC Universe Online, and Star Wars Galaxies, etc.). At every point in my MMO experiences I have been driven to be "the best", I strive for perfection and I'm not happy until I'm perfect (we can talk about my inadequacy issues some other time). I have hardcore raided in every game that allowed it, and if not raiding I'd go hard in some other aspect (PvP). However, hardcore raiding is what keeps dragging me back to WoW, 13 years of the game and I say it sucks all the time, but one thing they got right, is raiding. My current MMO is Classic WoW where I'm part of a top world speedrunning guild. I share your philosophies with addons as far as boss addons/auction house addons/pvp spy addons (I could not care less about any addon except the 1, the damage meter). You stating you're against dps meters is daunting to a person like me, especially when I am so excited for this game.

    That being said, I hear and understand your concerns that you made in the TimTheTatman interview. The toxic environment it creates between players of different skill levels, and the aid it gives during a live raid setting. I had a few ideas, which may not be fully fleshed out or may be just bad ideas, that could meet somewhere in the middle.

    A) A toggleable dps meter, that could be controlled maybe by each individual, or perhaps the raid leader, or guild leader. So guilds that want a meter, can have one, ones that don't want a meter don't need to use it.

    B) A plain old threat meter, you can get a rough idea of who's top and bottom, but would, by nature, be unreliable to judge performance by due to skill threat modifiers.

    C) Combat logging, something wow does right as well, the advanced combat log is exported to a text file that can then later be uploaded to a 3rd party site where you can analyze performance, and have leaderboards

    D) An after-action report, something built in game, similar to the combat logging. After the raid is finished you can analyze and scrutinize each players performance (and hopefully a leaderboard is included in there)

    E) Idea from /u/Hymnosi
    - A target dummy with it's own built in dps meter, that way you can test/theorycraft/prove you are decent, without it affecting live gameplay.

    If you took the time to read this crazy long message, you are amazing. I will play this game regardless, and will enjoy the shit out of it. Just maybe a little bit less than if i could compete globally with all the other parse nerds out there. I'm sure with some work we can find a happy medium where the parse nerds and the casuals are both satisfied.

    Much love

    PS: I did my best to keep that short, but when you're passionate about something you tend to get long winded

    I made the same post on reddit, feel free to discuss on the platform of your choosing
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/i2gmd0/a_lifelong_hardcore_raiders_plea_to_the_devs/?

    Hey. E was my idea. I mentioned it in a poll.

    https://strawpoll.com/7hyq1vcz7
  • Blockin wrote: »
    I don't think their mind is made up at all, they want to hear what the community has to say, which is why I am saying this. Steven may be against the idea, but it doesn't mean there isn't a middle ground to please both sides of the gamer hardcore/casual spectrum

    Exactly. In the interview with Tim, he was clearly against addons. But then for dps meters, he merely gave his stance on the topic, which shows that he was not against enabling some type of dps meters if the community wants it.
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    It depends which route this game is going to go, because if "doing better" is not going to give any advantages (which they already said that depending on performance you get better loot tables) then there is no rush to try to do anything except to "see" what bosses you can find
  • noaaninoaani Member
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Hey. E was my idea. I mentioned it in a poll.
    It was first mentioned as an idea on these forums about a year ago.

    It wasn't your idea.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 3
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Hey. E was my idea. I mentioned it in a poll.
    It was first mentioned as an idea on these forums about a year ago.

    It wasn't your idea.

    It was a joke. I was being sarcastic.
  • 3am3am Member
    edited August 3
    StevenSharif
    July 29 edited July 30
    "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

    My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️"

    From the "No Damage Meter" thread
  • noaaninoaani Member
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Hey. E was my idea. I mentioned it in a poll.
    It was first mentioned as an idea on these forums about a year ago.

    It wasn't your idea.

    It was a joke. I was being sarcastic.

    The pre-edit sadface was a more accurate reply.
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    The target dummy is a really good idea, it's not gonna hurt anybody and should be easy to implement.
    I think that dps meters is a thing more of veteran mmo players, since you got it for so many years. No dps meters is good for aquiring knowledge about the game and seeking other ways to calculate it, it forces you to learn the game from the foundations and really know your class and it looks more "clean" too without meters, at least for the game launch. Good post tho, a way to calculate your dps would be good.
  • SamsonSamson Member
    3am wrote: »
    StevenSharif
    July 29 edited July 30
    "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

    My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️"

    From the "No Damage Meter" thread

    Even though they have come out and said clearly that there will be no DPS meters/add-ons... people are still going to create new threads and complain....probably until the end of time.
    sigFinal.png
  • ZelasaurusZelasaurus Member, Founder
    I'd be happy to see no DPS meters, all they do is encourage people to play a spreadsheet instead of a game.
    - RAAAAR!
  • AdzzAdzz Member
    3am wrote: »
    StevenSharif
    July 29 edited July 30
    "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

    My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️"

    From the "No Damage Meter" thread

    This is a good thing all a DPS meter does is make people entilted and have a huge ego that dosnt help at all.

    I mean just look at WoW in certin guilds you cant even get to experience certin content if you dont do "90k" dps or what ever its really dumb
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 3
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Hey. E was my idea. I mentioned it in a poll.
    It was first mentioned as an idea on these forums about a year ago.

    It wasn't your idea.

    It was a joke. I was being sarcastic.

    The pre-edit sadface was a more accurate reply.

    Both replies indicate that it was supposed to be a joke. If i put a sad face as the reply, that shows that my original comment wasn't made with any serious intent. I changed it because I had to clarify that it was a joke, for you, since you didn't get the it in the first place.
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    TopEnd theorycrafters will be just using combat log analysis tools - so there is no need for actual DPS meters - don't worry depending on the people you will play with you will have no problem hiding your performance
  • Tragnar wrote: »
    TopEnd theorycrafters will be just using combat log analysis tools - so there is no need for actual DPS meters - don't worry depending on the people you will play with you will have no problem hiding your performance

    Yup. Theory-crafting will be a huge part of AoC.
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