Diversity & Inclusion

Hello there!

Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.

I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).

Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.

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Comments

Jubilum

I was going to give my opinion on this one. But, being a white male decided to keep my mouth shut.

Yuyukoyay

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

suprvilln

jubilum wrote: »

I was going to give my opinion on this one. But, being a white male decided to keep my mouth shut.

you didn't keep your mouth shut though because you responded lol. I would like to hear your input, even if you don't agree. believe me, I have literally been called the word on map chat for asking a similar question.. I've heard it all.

suprvilln

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

you didn't read my post.

Sinergee77

Seems like it should be possible to have options at character creation to adjust various criteria including height, body type, gender, and skin color. Makes sense to me that someone may want to create a character that resembles themselves IRL.

NelsonRebel

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But I thought all the races could be given any tone of skin shader (for any what we call race in our world)

I dont think (from what I know) that the actual races of Vera have specifc skin tones besides the Tulnar who are lizards who live underground and will have scales.

The Island dwarves I know will be dark because of the island areas they represent which makes sense. I think one of the human races were already promoted as dark skinned (I think)

But I was pretty sure somewhere steven said that the races are different by actually being different races, the skin tones should be universaly malleable for them besides the Tulnar scaly folks

Songcaller

I know Py'Rai can be brown, we dont have all the racial details though and we havent seen all of the races. We only have snippets of information. The customisation should be similar to BDO in terms of details. I would expect all hair styles would be available to all skin colours. Of course, racial styles will also be present. It is too difficult to give a more definitive answer. I am aware you like Dwarves but I've only heard about the Py'Rai in terms of brown skin tones so far.

suprvilln

Sinergee77 wrote: »

Seems like it should be possible to have options at character creation to adjust various criteria including height, body type, gender, and skin color. Makes sense to me that someone may want to create a character that resembles themselves IRL.

But will it be QUALITY representation is my question? just having dark skin and doing nothing else isnt enough. That is when you end up getting outdated stereotyped characters like this ..

Yuyukoyay

suprvilln wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

you didn't read my post.

I did, but that's really all I can input with this level of information. I personally don't care what race any character is in a video game so I can't really relate too much. Just because I'm spanish doesn't mean I care if spanish races are actually in the game. If I did I would probably be happy with a skin slider.

Culturally most races across MMO's borrow from just about every culture in the world somewhere. I don't think the game is going to be lacking culturally at all by what they revealed of races so far.

suprvilln

Neurath wrote: »

I know Py'Rai can be brown, we dont have all the racial details though and we havent seen all of the races. We only have snippets of information. The customisation should be similar to BDO in terms of details. I would expect all hair styles would be available to all skin colours. Of course, racial styles will also be present. It is too difficult to give a more definitive answer. I am aware you like Dwarves but I've only heard about the Py'Rai in terms of brown skin tones so far.

not just skin color. As mentioned in my original post, people like the Redguard in ESO and the Elonans/Canthans in GW2 actually have their own cultures. The Vaelune in this game appear to be influenced by North African/Arab culture by the stylings I see on the wiki. I was moreso getting towards why does it need to stop there.. There are black dwarven, elven, orcish characters in mythology, and I am certain there are equivalents in latin and asian cultures as well. I can make a darker skinned dwarf, but will I have to choose a dwarf with straight hair? and if I get my dwarf to look how I want, will I be able to interface with other NPC dwarven characters of color? will the story allow for that? or will it just be my black dwarf in an island of white dwarves? That's more what I was getting toward... Will it be 1 race (Vaelune) with that cultural influence or will the other 8 races have that built in to their backgrounds as well?

NelsonRebel

suprvilln wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

you didn't read my post.

I think I'm confused here too. Do you mean skin shaders and a detailed existence of modern hair styles or realistic hairstyles of humans today cross culturally? If so thats a good question to ask on the discord channel directly to the devs. I dont think we have any real information yet on that.

As far as cultures themselves I'm pretty certain none of the races focus on anything specific but pull from dozens of cultures with healthy doses of pure creative fantasy

Songcaller

We cant answer your question. It is unfeasible to make a whole race one colour. Some players will be dark and some players will be light. It is a fantasy world. Some Orcs are green, some Orcs are red.

It is not a slight against Dark Skinned people, it is a fantasy setting with fantasy races.

Naxxaz

jubilum wrote: »

I was going to give my opinion on this one. But, being a white male decided to keep my mouth shut.

This rings true.. i'll try anyways. Let's see if i fuck up.

Now, i will say i disagree with there not being representation in Ashes specifically.
They have alot of cultures present that are non-white, like some of them listed below, i don't see any of these as "white" in either culture, looks or theme.

Kaivek Orcs - Asian swamp culture
Niküa Dwarves - Polynesian sailor culture
Vaelune Humans - Middleeastern trading culture
and more-

Now that said, they could have more African and Inuit culture represented, but i'm not gonna start a discussion on that topic.

I can't tell you your feelings are wrong, cause that would be downright stupid of me, so i'll ask, what do you think they SHOULD include to combat this feeling?
More hairstyles and cosmetics or something else entirely?

suprvilln

nelsonrebel wrote: »

suprvilln wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

you didn't read my post.

I think I'm confused here too. Do you mean skin shaders and a detailed existence of modern hair styles or realistic hairstyles of humans today cross culturally? If so thats a good question to ask on the discord channel directly to the devs. I dont think we have any real information yet on that.

As far as cultures themselves I'm pretty certain none of the races focus on anything specific but pull from dozens of cultures with healthy doses of pure creative fantasy

I was speaking altogether. I haven't been on the Alpha at all so I do not know. My original post was moreso asking a question since the wiki doesnt have much in the way of details about the races. For example, in most fantasy games, if not all, Dwarves are purely based on Scandinavian lore. However, dwarves appear in mythology all around the world. There can be an African twist on dwarves, an East asian twist on elves.. things of that nature.. Also in a lot of games you can absolutely make black characters of any race but you dont ever see black characters of that race in the world. Like I can make a Black Elf character but when I play the game ALL the NPCs are white... it makes you just feel like you are an outlier which is leads towards the inlcusion side of my question.

in any resort I certainly look forward to what the game has to offer.

suprvilln

Neurath wrote: »

We cant answer your question. It is unfeasible to make a whole race one colour. Some players will be dark and some players will be light. It is a fantasy world. Some Orcs are green, some Orcs are red.

It is not a slight against Dark Skinned people, it is a fantasy setting with fantasy races.

it's unfeasible but we see all white races in fantasy games all the time which is the reason behind my frustration and my post.

Jubilum

suprvilln wrote: »

jubilum wrote: »

I was going to give my opinion on this one. But, being a white male decided to keep my mouth shut.

you didn't keep your mouth shut though because you responded lol. I would like to hear your input, even if you don't agree. believe me, I have literally been called the word on map chat for asking a similar question.. I've heard it all.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, and wish developers with take these concerns into consideration from the very beginning of development.

My problem is with the recent push to force developers to change a game they have been working on for 3 years plus. I'm not accusing you of doing this in your post, but this is how the pressure begins and before you know it, their are 1000's of people calling names, threatening, and demanding they change their vision to fit current social issue instead of what the original concept was.

NelsonRebel

suprvilln wrote: »

nelsonrebel wrote: »

suprvilln wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd imagine they got skin sliders like a lot of games do.

you didn't read my post.

I think I'm confused here too. Do you mean skin shaders and a detailed existence of modern hair styles or realistic hairstyles of humans today cross culturally? If so thats a good question to ask on the discord channel directly to the devs. I dont think we have any real information yet on that.

As far as cultures themselves I'm pretty certain none of the races focus on anything specific but pull from dozens of cultures with healthy doses of pure creative fantasy

I was speaking altogether. I haven't been on the Alpha at all so I do not know. My original post was moreso asking a question since the wiki doesnt have much in the way of details about the races. For example, in most fantasy games, if not all, Dwarves are purely based on Scandinavian lore. However, dwarves appear in mythology all around the world. There can be an African twist on dwarves, an East asian twist on elves.. things of that nature.. Also in a lot of games you can absolutely make black characters of any race but you dont ever see black characters of that race in the world. Like I can make a Black Elf character but when I play the game ALL the NPCs are white... it makes you just feel like you are an outlier which is leads towards the inlcusion side of my question.

in any resort I certainly look forward to what the game has to offer.

Ahh okay I'm getting what your saying now.

You're making sure that its not just player created skin shaders and that representation of the skin and different styles more akin to our real world is shown differently naturally in the game for races.

Truth be told we have no idea on that since we have only been exposed to the combat testing stuff for their combat phases for the past 2 years.

Steven has been very secretive on the lore in the game and what details each race. I think we'll get more info on what you're looking for as the devs wind up to the actual beta phases or until Steven directly releases info on the cultures themselves.

What we know on the races now are extremely bare. This was intentional since they said they wanted the game to be about discovery on launch. That being said steven himself is one of the most open minded folk you could think of and I highly doubt (especially given the diversity of his team) that he hasnt considered this yet

Yuyukoyay

That may be true in single player fantasy games, but MMO's have always been pretty diverse. Half the time we are relating to green or purple skinned people in MMO's. Your best bet is to find a bunch of folklore tales about dwarves and get them to the developers somehow. Otherwise it's probably going to be completely random.

However, I don't think it's a good idea to lock skin color to certain races. People should be able to pick what they want in a game. I mean even in real life there are white africans.

Ravudha

suprvilln wrote: »

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

One thing to consider is not everyone looks for representation in games. Games are fiction, and to experience that fiction many people escape to it by making believe they are someone else.

I'm Indian and have never felt left out or desired representation in MMOs because that's just not how I immerse myself and engage with fictional experiences. I happily make believe in games with my occupation, clothing, character history, skills, hair colour, voice, house, and mount. Making believe my race/skin tone is just another item in that list for me, and I don't need it to reflect my real life.

This isn't meant to take away from how your experiences have made you feel or what you want in a game; it's just to give a different perspective from someone who's (technically) Asian.

GodsThesis

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

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