Will Same Primary/Secondary be the Preferred Class?

I know we have been told that the secondary class is the 'flavor' BUT I got to thinking about some of the classes.....

I can see with some that the secondary will be flavor but others, maybe not quite so much. Take the X / Cleric for example. I would expect, if my secondary is Cleric, that I gain some healing abilities. Obviously not nearly as good as the primary but enough to say off heal. That imho is a bit more than "flavor". Same with a X / Tank, I would expect, if I had Tank as my secondary that it would give me some ability to Tank (again maybe to the level of 'Off-Tank'. Gaining brand new abilities is a bit different than just changing or adding flavor.

I can think of some exceptions to this but in general, do you think those looking for "the best of the best" for their top level raid will want someone who has doubled down on their class as opposed to someone who chose a different secondary?

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Damokles

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

mcstackerson

It probably depends on the class and probably the fight. This is all speculation.

For damage classes, picking there same class will make them the best at there respective damage type. so mage mage and ranger ranger will probably be optimal in fights where they are at full effect. Rogue and fighter are a little weird for me as they are supposed to both be physical melee damage so it's hard to say if being pure rogue or pure fighter would be optimal for melee dps. One might be the dominant melee dps secondary.

For all damage classes, their preferred secondary could change based off a fight. There might be fights where one damage type is better than another so picking a secondary that buffs that might be superior then staying pure.

I feel like things are a little different for the other classes. I could see a tank both wanting to dip into more damage, support, or healing if they think they have enough support to survive. Same thing for cleric where there might be times that they can keep their party topped off without going pure cleric so they dip into something else. I could definitely see summoner picking up other secondaries so they can better perform one role in a group. Bard, it's hard to say, Bard bard might be best or maybe they are better off picking up another secondary depending on the situation.

Once again, all my speculation.

There is also the fact that you can get gear that supports your class preference which could allow you to play a class that isn't normally viewed as meta.

ServNiQ

To help clarify, it's the same 'concept' of a skill that stays the same, the augmentation just changes it in a way that can seriously help you out.

As with the Fighter skill 'Rush', you move from your location to the target and upon getting there, you deal damage.

However with the mage secondary, and applying the teleportation augment that comes with it, you know go straight from your location to the target, with the time in between virtually eliminated.

It's still the same concept of getting from your location to the target, but it changes it in a way that can be beneficial to you.

Another example could be augmenting your sweep attack as a fighter with the fire augmentation from your secondary as a mage, which now adds fire damage and applies burning. It's the same concept, it's just adding a bit of 'spice' to it (get it?).

ServNiQ

However when choosing a secondary archetype, it will come down to your playstyle and how you want to personalize your character. Maybe you're a cleric but you want to deal with the rogues constantly on your back, then you might pick the tank archetype to help deal with that for some tanky augments. On the other hand, if you want to striaght up be the best healer you can, you just go with the same secondary as your primary. Your secondary is a way for your to blur the line between the holy trinity of Tank-Damage-Support you see in these MMOs.

Or, you power level to being a necromancer because that's what you've been dreaming about doing for the past couple years, all up to you.

MrPancake

reading the comments above; I'm curious to see how a fighter gets augmented with rogue.

PlagueMonk

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Damokles

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Secondary Classes do NOT change a classes gameplayrole.

Here is what I gathered over the years that I watched the streams concerning class roles:
Fighter - could be anything though I hope that they get a true parry skill as a damage tank kind of class (like a warrior tank or dk in wow, where they deal damage to survive)
Tank - damage mitigation
Rogue - Stealth
Ranger - traps
Mage - direct magic damage on a large scale
Summoner - minion controll and battlefield controll
Bard - mass buffs
Cleric - direct healing

These rolls ONLY happen if you chose this as your main class. A secondary rogue wont be able to become invisible, a secondary cleric wont be able to directly heal others, a secondary bard wont be able to buff others (or maybe id they do, then not as strong as regular bards).

A fighter wont become a "melee healer" with a cleric as secondary class. A melee healer would be a Cleric/Fighter or a Cleric/Rogue or a Cleric/Tank with a melee weapon.
A Fighter/Cleric is a fighter that can sustain himself a bit with healing magic.

Leiloni

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Your primary archetype determines your role and your secondary merely augments how you do that role. So a primary Fighter is a dps no matter what secondary they choose. The Fighter class specifically can be either ranged or melee, but they're not even limited to physical damage - if they choose Mage secondary, they can add elemental effects onto their abilities as well.

They can never be a healer even if they choose a Cleric secondary. Also each secondary offers 4 potential augment types, so Cleric would not only offer healing. Right now we know Clerics are the masters of life in all ways - this is why Summoner/Cleric is a Necromancer. So aside from choosing a healing augment and maybe getting self healing on a melee swing, you could also choose other Cleric augments that might do other things we don't yet know about.

Only Clerics and Bards can directly heal other players, and Clerics are the only primary healers. Bard healing will be much, much lower than Clerics and mostly AoE type stuff as supportive healing.

Leiloni

mcstackerson wrote: »

For damage classes, picking there same class will make them the best at there respective damage type. so mage mage and ranger ranger will probably be optimal in fights where they are at full effect. Rogue and fighter are a little weird for me as they are supposed to both be physical melee damage so it's hard to say if being pure rogue or pure fighter would be optimal for melee dps.

They'll do melee dps differently, but I don't think the idea is that one is better than the other. Fighter will be your more traditional Chain or Plate wearing weapon master, dashing head first into an enemy and fearlessly tearing them to bits. Rogue will be more careful in choosing targets, finding opportunity, using stealth or positioning to gain an advantage, and will likely have Light/Leather armor passives so they'll be a bit squishier and with less HP.

What will more so determine your build potential is other factors - what skills from your primary archetype will you spend points in, how deeply will you spend those points, what skills will you put on your bar, what secondary class will you choose and what augments will you use, etc.

SoulsOnFire wrote: »

reading the comments above; I'm curious to see how a fighter gets augmented with rogue.

If I had to guess, you may see stealth as an augment so maybe your Rush skill is now a Shadowstep, sending you into stealth for a few seconds as you charge toward your target; or maybe there are positional augments so maybe your melee swing now offers bonus damage when attacking from behind or the side, etc.

Ziu

I for sure know I will be going archmage(mage/mage) and I’m curious how you will augment your abilities with the same type. Im guessing it will just add more damage and flair, Which refers back to the OP where having the same pure class type might be more beneficial in raids and PVE. I believe that hybrid classes will have an advantage in PVP just because you’re more versatile.

DaRougaroux

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

Then how is beastmaster secondary gonna work as a summoner? Are you not going to acquire any Ranger skills?

Leiloni

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

Then how is beastmaster secondary gonna work as a summoner? Are you not going to acquire any Ranger skills?

Beastmaster is a Summoner primary, so they have summons no matter what. The secondary class choice for a Summoner changes the appearance of your summons, and changes how they do their role (you'll have tank, dps, and healing summons). So the Ranger secondary will likely turn your summons into animals with maybe appropriate attacks like claw attacks for a cat, etc. You will not gain any ranger skills, only augments to your Summoner skills that reflect the gameplay style of the Ranger class.

Damokles

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

Then how is beastmaster secondary gonna work as a summoner? Are you not going to acquire any Ranger skills?

I would say that the Beastmaster (Summoner/Ranger) will have pets with bleeds and slows to hunt down his enemies. Maybe have one permanent pet and summon two extra ones in combat.

Example:

Summon Elemental (Basic Summoner Spell) - Summon 3 Elementals to do your bidding (Fire - DPS, Earth - Tanking, Wind - Support)
Summon Wild Beasts (Ranger Augmented Spell) - Summon two wild beasts, that apply bleeding and slow effects on their target

DaRougaroux

Oh I see. Interesting. Man I like having choices like this.

ServNiQ

Yes and for summoner specifically, I believe they said that in terms of upgrades, you can either level up your summon, to be the biggest and baddest it can be and giving it passive buffs and what not, or you could instead gain abilities to actively buff your summon. However, that would tie you up buffing your minions, where as before you may be working in tandem with a weapon of your choosing and with your summons and going at it versus a guy. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you've seen the gameplay footage, you can have up to I believe 10 abilities on your hotbar, and have multiple at that, all of which you can choose to augment as you like. I'm very excited for how this plays out, but yeah, there will be MANY many options.

PlagueMonk

Damokles wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Secondary Classes do NOT change a classes gameplayrole.

Here is what I gathered over the years that I watched the streams concerning class roles:
Fighter - could be anything though I hope that they get a true parry skill as a damage tank kind of class (like a warrior tank or dk in wow, where they deal damage to survive)
Tank - damage mitigation
Rogue - Stealth
Ranger - traps
Mage - direct magic damage on a large scale
Summoner - minion controll and battlefield controll
Bard - mass buffs
Cleric - direct healing

These rolls ONLY happen if you chose this as your main class. A secondary rogue wont be able to become invisible, a secondary cleric wont be able to directly heal others, a secondary bard wont be able to buff others (or maybe id they do, then not as strong as regular bards).

A fighter wont become a "melee healer" with a cleric as secondary class. A melee healer would be a Cleric/Fighter or a Cleric/Rogue or a Cleric/Tank with a melee weapon.
A Fighter/Cleric is a fighter that can sustain himself a bit with healing magic.

Except the example YOU gave was exactly that....."Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage." Is that not healing yourself through melee?

And of you don't get any of the secondary classes abilities then exactly what will you get? So if I'm a Tank/ Rogue and I don't get any stealth capability, what WILL I get?

Jexz

For the majority of casuals it probably wont matter.
For the PvE Raid players who are so adamant about needing a DPS meter there absolutely will be a meta but it wont necessarily be same/same. There is a good chance it will be for tank/tank or tank/cleric and cleric/cleric. in the same sense the majority will probably be pushed towards dps/dps

But what is meta for PvE will probably not be meta for PvP . PvP will probably be more flexible on a Meta due to a calculator wont be able to tell you what is best. As the most DPS wont necessarily be the best. It will also change depending on the battles 1vx 8vx ZvZ PuG or Coms.

Damokles

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Secondary Classes do NOT change a classes gameplayrole.

Here is what I gathered over the years that I watched the streams concerning class roles:
Fighter - could be anything though I hope that they get a true parry skill as a damage tank kind of class (like a warrior tank or dk in wow, where they deal damage to survive)
Tank - damage mitigation
Rogue - Stealth
Ranger - traps
Mage - direct magic damage on a large scale
Summoner - minion controll and battlefield controll
Bard - mass buffs
Cleric - direct healing

These rolls ONLY happen if you chose this as your main class. A secondary rogue wont be able to become invisible, a secondary cleric wont be able to directly heal others, a secondary bard wont be able to buff others (or maybe id they do, then not as strong as regular bards).

A fighter wont become a "melee healer" with a cleric as secondary class. A melee healer would be a Cleric/Fighter or a Cleric/Rogue or a Cleric/Tank with a melee weapon.
A Fighter/Cleric is a fighter that can sustain himself a bit with healing magic.

Except the example YOU gave was exactly that....."Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage." Is that not healing yourself through melee?

And of you don't get any of the secondary classes abilities then exactly what will you get? So if I'm a Tank/ Rogue and I don't get any stealth capability, what WILL I get?

I think you didnt understand what i meant. Cleric main class will be the only one to actually actively heal OTHERS. Cleric subclass will give you augment to heal YOURSELF.

That doesnt make you a melee healer^^

What you get from the secondary class augmentations would be flavour.

Example:
Fighter/Mage - Magic damage on your abilities
Tank/Rogue - Evasion on your mitigation instead of just reducing damage
Rogue/Bard - Movementspeed buff on your finisher for yourself

Zenrage1

Damokles wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

You do not "gain" abilities through secondary classes. EVER.
What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.

Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:

Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.

Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.

Or for a bard:

Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.

Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.

I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.

This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.

In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.

Secondary Classes do NOT change a classes gameplayrole.

Here is what I gathered over the years that I watched the streams concerning class roles:
Fighter - could be anything though I hope that they get a true parry skill as a damage tank kind of class (like a warrior tank or dk in wow, where they deal damage to survive)
Tank - damage mitigation
Rogue - Stealth
Ranger - traps
Mage - direct magic damage on a large scale
Summoner - minion controll and battlefield controll
Bard - mass buffs
Cleric - direct healing

These rolls ONLY happen if you chose this as your main class. A secondary rogue wont be able to become invisible, a secondary cleric wont be able to directly heal others, a secondary bard wont be able to buff others (or maybe id they do, then not as strong as regular bards).

A fighter wont become a "melee healer" with a cleric as secondary class. A melee healer would be a Cleric/Fighter or a Cleric/Rogue or a Cleric/Tank with a melee weapon.
A Fighter/Cleric is a fighter that can sustain himself a bit with healing magic.

Except the example YOU gave was exactly that....."Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage." Is that not healing yourself through melee?

And of you don't get any of the secondary classes abilities then exactly what will you get? So if I'm a Tank/ Rogue and I don't get any stealth capability, what WILL I get?

I think you didnt understand what i meant. Cleric main class will be the only one to actually actively heal OTHERS. Cleric subclass will give you augment to heal YOURSELF.

That doesnt make you a melee healer^^

What you get from the secondary class augmentations would be flavour.

Example:
Fighter/Mage - Magic damage on your abilities
Tank/Rogue - Evasion on your mitigation instead of just reducing damage
Rogue/Bard - Movementspeed buff on your finisher for yourself

Is it really confirmed secondary class will only affect yourself. I doubt this is the case with classes like Paladin in the list. I bet they are weaker effects but still impact allies. Like the Paladins taunt creating a heal zone or something.

Jexz

The heal effects will be limited. You may be able to heal party members but not anywhere near the same capacity as a cleric.(heard this with reference to summoner/cleric from Steven in an older Q&A still does not mean it will go live)

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