Too many Tanks?

If Tanks are locked to the tanking role, I worry that finding a spot in a raid group may get difficult as having a third or fourth offtank probably isn't needed or ideal.

For normal group content a game usually needs plenty of tanks but in raiding only a few are needed. This makes me think alot of tanks wouldn't get to see the endgame raiding at all.

That, or there will be way too few tanks for normal group content.

Do we know how the devs plan to solve this? Will there be real viable DPS or maybe support builds for the Tank archetype?
From what I've been able to gather, augmentations aren't meant to be strong enough to truly change your party role.

In other games I've played, tanks are able to change their role if they are unable to find a raidspot as tank, wich mitigates the problem somewhat.

Finding that you are not needed for the only job your archetype excel at would truly suck.

My worries are probably unfounded and I bet the devs have thought of this. Still, I would love to hear what you guys think and how you would solve this problem.

Sorry for my bad english

Edit:
I feel i need to clarify my point a bit.
in a game where normal PvE dungeons require 8 players (and only one of the primary AT can tank) 1/8 players should roll a Tank as primary AT(in an ideal world)

If 40 man raids only require, let's say 2 Tanks, that would leave 3/5 Tanks without a raidspot. (Unless they get the option to change thier role)

Ps.
The best solution I've heard so far is to make the 40 player raid content require 5 primary AT Tanks through boss adds and a need for specialized tanks(magic mitigation, evasion etc) for some fights. I believe that way the devs could control the meta and create a good balance on the servers.
Maybe that has been the devs plan all along.

Thanks for sugesting this, it makes me more hopeful!

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Comments

Songcaller

Find a Guild and find your place. Doesn't matter how plentiful or short any class is on a server so long as the Guild can cover all roles.

Boom1

I'm sure tanks will able able to dps as well. Even if they couldn't, I wouldn't see this as the game dev's problem. Most people roll alts for just said reasons.

Nykz

At this point yall trolling

Soaker

Neurath wrote: »

Find a Guild and find your place. Doesn't matter how plentiful or short any class is on a server so long as the Guild can cover all roles.

Yes, but that is the problem. How many tanks do a raiding guild need. 2? 3?
there is going to be huge competition to get a raidspot as a tank and it doesn't seem like tanks will be able to change role. Getting a guild might not be so easy if thats the case

Boom wrote: »

I'm sure tanks will able able to dps as well. Even if they couldn't, I wouldn't see this as the game dev's problem. Most people roll alts for just said reasons.

Having half of the tanks rerolling because they can't get raidspots, leaving a huge lack of tanks for dungeons seems like poor design and it should be the devs "problem"

Songcaller

If my Guild has 6 or more Tanks, we do Main Raids and Alt Raids. Also those Tanks will be used in mass PvP. It is not a situation of forcing people to reroll. People make alts for hundreds of reasons and more Main Tanks mean more options.

Aeri

Soaker wrote: »

Yes, but that is the problem. How many tanks do a raiding guild need. 2? 3?
there is going to be huge competition to get a raidspot as a tank and it doesn't seem like tanks will be able to change role. Getting a guild might not be so easy if thats the case

Most MMOs tend to have a dearth of both tanks and healers, compared to other classes. There is 1 each of the tank/healer primary classes, compared to 5 DPS and 1 support/utility primary class. Based on my ~20 years of MMO experience, there is very, very rarely ever an overabundance of tanks. I would hazard a guess that there will likely be less than 1/8 of the playerbase having the tank as their main class.

Soaker wrote: »

Having half of the tanks rerolling because they can't get raidspots, leaving a huge lack of tanks for dungeons seems like poor design and it should be the devs "problem"

Just because you roll an alt doesn't mean you suddenly give up your main. If a tank joins a guild and they have too many tanks already - something that is very, very rare - so that person rolls an alt to join in raiding, they still have their tank character available if needed.

Boom1

Most of us haven't been in-game to test what happens when six of eight players are tanks. If the threat is generated by damage, then all tanks will also be dps and there won't be such a thing as too many tanks. Healers are going to be a problem I'd bet. Only cleric main spec can heal from what I've seen. No secondary cleric selection can heal. I don't think I've heard the same for tanking options yet.

Songcaller

At present mobs stick to a solo tank even when the solo tank is dc. I hope the situation broadens because what we've seen so far is more than lacklustre.

Soaker

Neurath wrote: »

If my Guild has 6 or more Tanks, we do Main Raids and Alt Raids. Also those Tanks will be used in mass PvP. It is not a situation of forcing people to reroll. People make alts for hundreds of reasons and more Main Tanks mean more options.

That would still leaves the same % of raiding Tanks in your guild.

Songcaller

The main fact is Ashes is a PvX Game and tanks will be needed for PvP. Also, Crafted Gear will match the dropped gear for the most part. It is highly doubtful excess Tanks will exist, it is more likely that Tanks will be the most useful players in PvP due to the hard CCs Tanks can perform.

ShroudedFox

I kinda wonder whether the fact that this is player collision comes into this as a tank can only keep so many adds on them at a time so say a boss spawns 10 minor creeps you might need 2 tanks just to be able to block them so that they don't just run past and agro the dps/heals.
So maybe you could need many tanks to form a wall to prevent creep overflow.

That is if their balance so that you need even amounts of each archetype in a raid of 40 you'd want 5 tanks with different secondaries

Soaker

Aeri wrote: »

Soaker wrote: »

Yes, but that is the problem. How many tanks do a raiding guild need. 2? 3?
there is going to be huge competition to get a raidspot as a tank and it doesn't seem like tanks will be able to change role. Getting a guild might not be so easy if thats the case

Most MMOs tend to have a dearth of both tanks and healers, compared to other classes. There is 1 each of the tank/healer primary classes, compared to 5 DPS and 1 support/utility primary class. Based on my ~20 years of MMO experience, there is very, very rarely ever an overabundance of tanks. I would hazard a guess that there will likely be less than 1/8 of the playerbase having the tank as their main class.

Soaker wrote: »

Having half of the tanks rerolling because they can't get raidspots, leaving a huge lack of tanks for dungeons seems like poor design and it should be the devs "problem"

Just because you roll an alt doesn't mean you suddenly give up your main. If a tank joins a guild and they have too many tanks already - something that is very, very rare - so that person rolls an alt to join in raiding, they still have their tank character available if needed.

I do agree that there is usually too few tanks overall in MMO's however the opposite is usually true when it comes to raiding.

Imagine making a 40 man raid in AoC would 1/8 be a tank? i doubt it. having 1/8 healers however is probably a good idea

Xenantaya

I understand your concern, but we just don't know yet. Given that the standard group is 8 players with 1 tank, scaling that up to a 40 man raid means 5 tanks. That's only a couple more than the 3 or so tanks that 40-man WoW classic usually required. I think Intrepid could design raid encounters involving adds, tank switches because of stacking debuffs, etc. such that 5 tanks usually are required.

My guess is that the bigger concern will be not enough tanks for the typical 8-man content. According to a couple recent polls on this forum and reddit, tank will be the 7th or 8th most played class, and generally tanks are scarce.

Soaker

ShroudedFox wrote: »

I kinda wonder whether the fact that this is player collision comes into this as a tank can only keep so many adds on them at a time so say a boss spawns 10 minor creeps you might need 2 tanks just to be able to block them so that they don't just run past and agro the dps/heals.
So maybe you could need many tanks to form a wall to prevent creep overflow.

That is if their balance so that you need even amounts of each archetype in a raid of 40 you'd want 5 tanks with different secondaries

Ye, i hope they go this route

Aeri

Soaker wrote: »

I do agree that there is usually too few tanks overall in MMO's however the opposite is usually true when it comes to raiding.

Imagine making a 40 man raid in AoC would 1/8 be a tank? i doubt it. having 1/8 healers however is probably a good idea

I haven't ever really encountered the opposite being true in raiding, unless you're in a guild where basically everyone has a tank, healer, and DPS character so they can play whatever is needed.

As for 40-man raids, having 5 tanks honestly probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. If you were to stick with an even distribution of classes for the whole group, and your DPS or whatnot was so low by having 5 tanks/25 DPS, instead of say 3 tanks/27 DPS, you have other issues than just a few extra tanks.

Soaker

Xenantaya wrote: »

I understand your concern, but we just don't know yet. Given that the standard group is 8 players with 1 tank, scaling that up to a 40 man raid means 5 tanks. That's only a couple more than the 3 or so tanks that 40-man WoW classic usually required. I think Intrepid could design raid encounters involving adds, tank switches because of stacking debuffs, etc. such that 5 tanks usually are required.
.

I hope you are right!

Xenantaya wrote: »

My guess is that the bigger concern will be not enough tanks for the typical 8-man content. According to a couple recent polls on this forum and reddit, tank will be the 7th or 8th most played class, and generally tanks are scarce.

Ye that is my worry as well. There would need to be an incentive to bring 5 tanks is a 40 man raid to create balance i believe

Aardvark

Neurath wrote: »

At present mobs stick to a solo tank even when the solo tank is dc. I hope the situation broadens because what we've seen so far is more than lacklustre.

We need real pve for bosses where the tank must work hard to keep agro and top dps must be careful not to pull boss off the tank. I hope we don't get dumbed down pve where everything sticks to the tank like it's superglued to them.

Aardvark

Xenantaya wrote: »

I understand your concern, but we just don't know yet. Given that the standard group is 8 players with 1 tank, scaling that up to a 40 man raid means 5 tanks. That's only a couple more than the 3 or so tanks that 40-man WoW classic usually required. I think Intrepid could design raid encounters involving adds, tank switches because of stacking debuffs, etc. such that 5 tanks usually are required.

My guess is that the bigger concern will be not enough tanks for the typical 8-man content. According to a couple recent polls on this forum and reddit, tank will be the 7th or 8th most played class, and generally tanks are scarce.

Almost every game has shortage of tank and healer. Some couples go far as to make a tank healer pair so they can fill their groups in 2 seconds by going got tank and healer just need dps

Titillater

It was mentioned elsewhere about the armor, that the preferred tank might* want to be wearing light armor for certain high magic damage encounters. This might mean you need multiple Heros with different tank specialties to fill your party.

With what I read about only being able to put a limited amount of skills on your action bar, a player might allocate more damage related actions to the bar instead of protection to "respec" for encounters where they aren't strictly needed main Hero.

Songcaller

Cloth Armour gives highest magic defense, light armour gives damage bonus per item at rank 3.

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