Meta: Kicking raid members with Exp debt just before killing the world boss

Since death causes experience debt and exp debt can significantly reduce drop rate from mobs. It is the intent of the system that a raid killing a legendary boss will want to focus heavily on preventing any deaths in their 40 man raid because even 1 death will cause the legendary boss to drop less? Would the meta then be to remove any members from the raid who have any exp debt just before the boss dies?

Example: 40 elite players from a close knit guild get the world boss down to 10% health and then just before it dies the raid lead orders anyone with any exp debt to leave the raid so that when the boss dies and the system goes to calculate what loot to drop, it scans the raid group, and sees nothing but no-exp-debt members in it and so allows for maximum loot drop. -vs- if you leave everyone in the raid group, even ones with a few deaths' worth of exp debt then when the boss dies it sees that exp debt and reduces how much loot it drops.

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MoMeme6701

this might be a thing

Frosty_Tips

*edit - ooops my reply was to your original reply before you changed it
So far what has been stated by the devs is that loot is not split to all who hit it. Experience is but not loot. 100% of the loot is given to the group that tagged it assuming they do atleast roughly 40% of the damage (this system thus favors the initial tagging group). Another group can steal the looting rights if they can do roughly 60% of the dmg. The devs gave these % as rough numbers but you get the gist.

Warth

Not sure if that's your first MMO, but it's common that people who get raid kicked halfway into the fight still have the same looting rights as anybody else within the raid. Both the loot distribution system and the people within a raid is determined at the begin of the battle, not the end. Joining mid-fight would add you to the list of loot-eligible players. Leaving mid-fight, would not take you off the list.

That's standard in MMOs nowadays, as it was abused heavily in some of the old MMOs.

Lfmr

I think that kicking party members will likely not effect loot drops from the mob since it will probably recognize that player as tagging it at the beginning of the fight.

Aardvark

loghan wrote: »

Since death causes experience debt and exp debt can significantly reduce drop rate from mobs. It is the intent of the system that a raid killing a legendary boss will want to focus heavily on preventing any deaths in their 40 man raid because even 1 death will cause the legendary boss to drop less? Would the meta then be to remove any members from the raid who have any exp debt just before the boss dies?

Example: 40 elite players from a close knit guild get the world boss down to 10% health and then just before it dies the raid lead orders anyone with any exp debt to leave the raid so that when the boss dies and the system goes to calculate what loot to drop, it scans the raid group, and sees nothing but no-exp-debt members in it and so allows for maximum loot drop. -vs- if you leave everyone in the raid group, even ones with a few deaths' worth of exp debt then when the boss dies it sees that exp debt and reduces how much loot it drops.

Simple don’t group with any reds period

Frosty_Tips

Aardvark wrote: »

Simple don’t group with any reds period

I'm talking about people in your raid with exp death from dying to the boss mob early in the fight, not corruption "reds".

@Lfmr That could be how they're doing it, I hope we can get confirmation on that though. That the mob calculates its loot table based on who was in the raid group when it was first tagged. But even if that is the case, then the meta would be that as all 40 of you are standing at the entrance just before pulling the boss you would remove anyone with experience debt from the raid and then pull the boss. If the game then at the point of first pull calculates what loot table to give on that boss, then after the pull is done, you could then re-add those players with the experience debt. It's not game breaking obviously but this mechanic of experience debt causes a reduced drop rate on loot creates some jankiness / weird flips raid leads have to organize around.

Grievousness

I don't know but that death penalty sounds weird and not really like a good feature to begin with.
I personally wouldn't have a problem if I run around solo make a mistake and therefore have this penalty.
If it is my personal fault and I carry the burden of it's consequences, it is fine.

In a raid enviroment it is a lot different.
I mean raid stuff is supposed to be hard so you are supposed to die, a lot.
Thing is you may not only die of your own faults, just think about a tank not getting enough heal.
Wouldn't really feel good to get a death penalty because someone else failed.

Also what if someone in your raid sucks and dies all the time.
Naturally everyone would hate him since he decreses the quality of the loot.
If that is the case why bother with the dps meter debate if we just make players toxic that way?
It probably will make us dislike weaker raid members for a legitimate reason.

As you may imagine right now to me the point op put up is merely the tip of the iceberg.
If they really think this is a good system they should also implement it properly so there are no workarounds.

In case that there will be workarounds like you suggest I personally would call them bad game design.
While not every solution needs to come natural by playing the game,
stuff like kicking party members to increase drop chances is such a weird solution to the problem.
Just think about how people could react if they aren't aware of the reasoning.
They'd propably freak out assume one guys wants to steal the loot and start killing each other.

FuryBladeborne

Raiding could have different rules. This thread seems like a good topic that should be brought up during testing.

Yuyukoyay

I'd like it be any solution that doesn't include booting people from your raid.

Caeryl

I’d say just have everyone in the tagging group count toward boss loot regardless of who’s in the group when the fight ends. It’d prevent the mid-fight group drops.

Lfmr

loghan wrote: »

Aardvark wrote: »

Simple don’t group with any reds period

I'm talking about people in your raid with exp death from dying to the boss mob early in the fight, not corruption "reds".

@Lfmr That could be how they're doing it, I hope we can get confirmation on that though. That the mob calculates its loot table based on who was in the raid group when it was first tagged. But even if that is the case, then the meta would be that as all 40 of you are standing at the entrance just before pulling the boss you would remove anyone with experience debt from the raid and then pull the boss. If the game then at the point of first pull calculates what loot table to give on that boss, then after the pull is done, you could then re-add those players with the experience debt. It's not game breaking obviously but this mechanic of experience debt causes a reduced drop rate on loot creates some jankiness / weird flips raid leads have to organize around.

If you joined late, it would likely count as you tagging the mob as well, and whichever group tagged the mob for the most damage gets the drop. I might also hope there is trash mobs in the dungeon that you can slaughter to get rid of your XP debt.

Taraniss

@loghan I would be extremely surprised if someone joining after it starts but still doing the mechanics is not in the loot table math. I would venture to say that if it does work that way and they are not added to the formula to calculate the loot from the boss then they probably also would not be eligible to receive any of the BOP gear because they would not be in the loot table as a member of the raid. Most games though the boss will calculate anyone who has damaged them or healed during the battle.

Malapapas

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I'd like it be any solution that doesn't include booting people from your raid.

Yes. seems odd that a developer would intentionally add a system that promotes kicking players from groups lol. The only way it would work is if the reductions are very small i.e. if you had 5% (0.05) chance of getting a specific item then each death reduced that value by 1/10 of 1% (1 death = 0.049 chance, 10 deaths = 0.4 chance etc...). And then of course the drop rates have to be appropriately balanced to account for death counts...

ZeekMystic

Have they confirmed that the exp loss is instant? In most systems with loss on death it is the act of respawning that causes the exp loss. If they are revived it doesn’t trigger it doesn’t trigger that loss

Linstead

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

@loghan I would be extremely surprised if someone joining after it starts but still doing the mechanics is not in the loot table math. I would venture to say that if it does work that way and they are not added to the formula to calculate the loot from the boss then they probably also would not be eligible to receive any of the BOP gear because they would not be in the loot table as a member of the raid. Most games though the boss will calculate anyone who has damaged them or healed during the battle.

Pretty sure Steven said that there will be no "BoP" gear or at the very least almost all gear in the game will be tradable and will never bind.

If that's the case, the players with experience debt can sit outside of the raid, and then come in mid fight, don't join the group, and just do their own things. None of them will be able to pump out 60% of the damage, so then the raid gets the full loot, can trade all the loot to the experience debt players if they needed it, etc.

Taraniss

Linstead wrote: »

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

@loghan I would be extremely surprised if someone joining after it starts but still doing the mechanics is not in the loot table math. I would venture to say that if it does work that way and they are not added to the formula to calculate the loot from the boss then they probably also would not be eligible to receive any of the BOP gear because they would not be in the loot table as a member of the raid. Most games though the boss will calculate anyone who has damaged them or healed during the battle.

Pretty sure Steven said that there will be no "BoP" gear or at the very least almost all gear in the game will be tradable and will never bind.

If that's the case, the players with experience debt can sit outside of the raid, and then come in mid fight, don't join the group, and just do their own things. None of them will be able to pump out 60% of the damage, so then the raid gets the full loot, can trade all the loot to the experience debt players if they needed it, etc.

I misunderstood then I thought it was the opposite. High end lootable gear will be "BOP". I might have misunderstood. If this is the case though then it makes it moot point imo. That person in debt will have access to that gear then regardless if they help or not. Whether that be by trading or guilds storing certain gear in a guild bank and being able to gear members as they see fit. I guess it makes a difference if that person in debt is the ONLY person available for that spot and you NEED them. In any other situation I can either bring someone else and still give to the person or run it without them and give.

Linstead

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

Linstead wrote: »

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

@loghan I would be extremely surprised if someone joining after it starts but still doing the mechanics is not in the loot table math. I would venture to say that if it does work that way and they are not added to the formula to calculate the loot from the boss then they probably also would not be eligible to receive any of the BOP gear because they would not be in the loot table as a member of the raid. Most games though the boss will calculate anyone who has damaged them or healed during the battle.

Pretty sure Steven said that there will be no "BoP" gear or at the very least almost all gear in the game will be tradable and will never bind.

If that's the case, the players with experience debt can sit outside of the raid, and then come in mid fight, don't join the group, and just do their own things. None of them will be able to pump out 60% of the damage, so then the raid gets the full loot, can trade all the loot to the experience debt players if they needed it, etc.

I misunderstood then I thought it was the opposite. High end lootable gear will be "BOP". I might have misunderstood. If this is the case though then it makes it moot point imo. That person in debt will have access to that gear then regardless if they help or not. Whether that be by trading or guilds storing certain gear in a guild bank and being able to gear members as they see fit. I guess it makes a difference if that person in debt is the ONLY person available for that spot and you NEED them. In any other situation I can either bring someone else and still give to the person or run it without them and give.

If it's just one person yeah, but if you have like 10 people in the raid who died on the first boss and you really want all the gear off the second boss, it would be hard to just replace 10 people instantly. But easy peesy to let them sit outside of the group and clear the boss with their ungrouped help and get all the loot.

Taraniss

Linstead wrote: »

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

Linstead wrote: »

TwitchTaraniss wrote: »

@loghan I would be extremely surprised if someone joining after it starts but still doing the mechanics is not in the loot table math. I would venture to say that if it does work that way and they are not added to the formula to calculate the loot from the boss then they probably also would not be eligible to receive any of the BOP gear because they would not be in the loot table as a member of the raid. Most games though the boss will calculate anyone who has damaged them or healed during the battle.

Pretty sure Steven said that there will be no "BoP" gear or at the very least almost all gear in the game will be tradable and will never bind.

If that's the case, the players with experience debt can sit outside of the raid, and then come in mid fight, don't join the group, and just do their own things. None of them will be able to pump out 60% of the damage, so then the raid gets the full loot, can trade all the loot to the experience debt players if they needed it, etc.

I misunderstood then I thought it was the opposite. High end lootable gear will be "BOP". I might have misunderstood. If this is the case though then it makes it moot point imo. That person in debt will have access to that gear then regardless if they help or not. Whether that be by trading or guilds storing certain gear in a guild bank and being able to gear members as they see fit. I guess it makes a difference if that person in debt is the ONLY person available for that spot and you NEED them. In any other situation I can either bring someone else and still give to the person or run it without them and give.

If it's just one person yeah, but if you have like 10 people in the raid who died on the first boss and you really want all the gear off the second boss, it would be hard to just replace 10 people instantly. But easy peesy to let them sit outside of the group and clear the boss with their ungrouped help and get all the loot.

I agree with this but also the more people you have outside (10 in this example) the higher chance they have to do enough damage to the boss to make it be part of the algorithm. I do agree though that the more you have the harder it will be to replace and IF it is like this can be an issue. Guess we will have to wait on more information because I do find it hard to believe that this is how the system will work for boss fights.

Frosty_Tips

KeybladerH wrote: »

Have they confirmed that the exp loss is instant? In most systems with loss on death it is the act of respawning that causes the exp loss. If they are revived it doesn’t trigger it doesn’t trigger that loss

That's another nitty gritty detail that hasn't been point blank asked to Steven. But my assumption is that yes you do get Experience Debt even if revived by your Cleric. The reason I say that is because red PKers could abuse the corruption system otherwise. A corrupted PK could have his friend kill him to remove his corruption, and then his cleric friend would just res him to avoid the Exp Debt. So that's why I assume that you get exp debt no matter if you get a res or if you respawn from a spawn point.

Which leads us back to the problem with the "Exp Debt reduces loot drop rate" mechanic. It forces a raid lead to kick his main tank from the raid because the guy died once. Now if it's a close knit guild then that tank will be okay, they will share the loot afterwards anyways, but if you're in a pick up group those randoms may not be so friendly, and since you were removed due to your exp debt you never got a chance to roll on the boss loot. Meanwhile the mage is laughing because the only reason the tank died was because they didn't properly CC. Also there will be titles granted to like server firsts and leader boards and if you were removed from the raid and told to fight solo from outside of the raid, you likely will not get the title of "Dragon Slayer" and your name likely won't be written in stone back in the metropolis wall of fame. (and yes I hope there's literally a giant marble stone wall in each metropolis that you can see names written on and their feat of strength typed by it)

Xenotor

Good question.
Stuff like this must be cleared before launch so keep perster the Devs until someone clears this up.

i could see an Answer like "just dont die" and "Loot table is effected by all who affected the boss death in any way so out of raid play or kicking raid members is not an option" from IG comming for this.
It fits into the game of risk versus reward.
If you die a lot during a dungeon run then you get worse loot then a group that didn't die once.
It also fits into the "No participation Trophy"
You may have cleared the boss but you dont deserve the same loot as the once who did it better then you.

Keeps the people in the raid on their toes.
Stop standing in that Red S**t , keep Boss checking the boss animations, stay in formation, don't overextend.
Thats basic raid play but unfortunately the consequences for bad play got dumped down in so many MMORGS in the past for the simple reason of: "If there is content then everyone should be able to do it"

Good thing AoC doesn't follow that trend so far.

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