Bad Suggestions - Rant About The Rants

Just wanted to say I think it is really silly the amount of people who haven't played the game but feel the need to suggest outlandish ideas on the forums with minimal insight on what the game will actually be when it comes out. I understand and fully respect those who are making suggestions that make sense, or are based on solid ideas spawning from other games that have seen success. I also appreciate people who have the success of AoC at heart when coming up with ideas. It's the crazy things like "I want to PvP in arenas for end game loot, don't make me quest in this mmorpg" or the "cosmetics are pay to win" posts that are just dumb.

We are all here because of what Intrepid has allowed us to see of their game. They want our feedback because they respect the community, however, give them a chance to build the game how they have dreamed it to be.....they haven't been wrong so far.

Anyone else have any crazy comments people have made? I'm bored.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Sussurro

Just hearing Sharif speak, you can tell he's mulled over the ideas he will implement in this game for longer than we've been arguing what it should be. I'm open to the idea of suggestion from the community so long as it doesn't trample over what the developers are so clearly passionate about actualizing.

Khronus

@Sussurro You said it better than I did. I agree completely. Let them build their dream game. I'm following them regardless of what is released because I strongly agree they have the right team in place to build the game that will make an impact in the MMO market.

Grimfaldra

There are no bad suggestions. Suggestions are input. A smart game developer hears all suggestions, thinks about them and if they are not feasible or the person made the suggestion without doing their homework, they are discarded or used to avoid whatever was suggested.

We will find out if they are really smart by avoiding the mistakes others have made in their "dream games". All the games I know that are marked "dreams" became just that in a very short time. And we will find out if they can deviate from their dream far enough to not make a game for a few 1000 players , but for a world of players.

The more suggestions there are, the better. Bad suggestions and smart developers turn into creations that avoid certain pitfalls by doing the polar opposite of those suggestions. Good suggestions that are used to change the "dream" or at least slightly alter it turn into truely great creations that will last for a very long time.

And let's not get started about who decides which ones are good and which ones are bad.

And btw. If you ask for suggestions on the internet and think that all people will share your dream, you need your head examined. And if you make a game without asking for input, you need to have it examined as well.

Zhab

Grimfaldra wrote: »

There are no bad suggestions. Suggestions are input.

I would normally agree with you with just the theory. But in practice... wow. I think I know the thread that inspired this one and I have to say... that was truly something to behold.

edit: I mean what are we going to do if Steven ends up in a mental asylum as a consequence of reading to many "Lovecraftian" suggestions of eldritch nature ?

Plixen

All the "wow killers" have tried to copy a lot from wow, and see how long they lasted.
Please don't try to make them implement too many things from wow.

I think it looks like Steven and his crew have a lot of good ideas, hope they go through with them, and don't listen to all the bad suggestions.

Screw damagemeter, screw multiboxing, don't worry about family travel or 1v1 balance, let's try the game first, and i'm sure they'll change the things that doesn't work as well as intended.
They are doing this for the love of mmorpgs, and i think it'll be great!

Grimfaldra

Pl1x wrote: »

Screw damagemeter, screw multiboxing, don't worry about family travel or 1v1 balance, let's try the game first, and i'm sure they'll change the things that doesn't work as well as intended.
They are doing this for the love of mmorpgs, and i think it'll be great!

That is a dangerous road to travel. Fact is, people want certain QoL things to exist since games have been handing them out like candy. That means there is a large portion of your clientele you are relying on to pay for your server upkeep that is vocal about wanting to have such things.

You can now do two things, basically. You can adamantly refuse to have them at launch or ever. If your game is realllly good, you can even get away with it for a time. It all depends on how the game will work without those perks. They have good ideas for that and I am curious about how that will pan out.

Doing something out of love for something is reallllly nice. And yes, they have the cash to bankroll that thing and push it over the starting line. And there are people in the world who could just make such a game for free and run it for free for the next 50 years. Fact is, you need the numbers to pay the bills if you are not one of those people.

Saying "screw it" to any and all suggestions that somehow are shit or collide with your "dream" is a sure way into a collosal failure. Or a game that will never get finished.

Never discard a single suggestion, always analyze them to find possible ways to exploit them, use bad suggestions to find ways that will make the game implode if implemented and once you have a hefty dossier of said things, you can try to weave something out of your own ideas and improve those with the good stuff in your binder.

Grimfaldra

Zhab wrote: »

I would normally agree with you with just the theory. But in practice... wow. I think I know the thread that inspired this one and I have to say... that was truly something to behold.

edit: I mean what are we going to do if Steven ends up in a mental asylum as a consequence of reading to many "Lovecraftian" suggestions of eldritch nature ?

*laugh* If i am not mistaken, his mind is tougher than you give him credit for.

And he asked for it. He should know that he yelled "fuck you darkness" into the abyss when they asked for suggestions. To quote Nietzsche, "If you stare in the abyss, the abyss will stare back."

And if you want to toughen up, browse over to "fundies say the darndest things" and train up. If you are at 10 articles without a headache, you will be good to go. :P

TheLegend27

+1 to you sir. Absolutely correct!

Personally, I feel sad and quite irritated when I see people spewing unreasonable suggestions (that clearly show they have not properly understood the basis of the game) justifying it with "I want this, else I'll be bored and hate the game".

As you said, OP, let Intrepid make the game they dreamt of making. If you like it, play it and give constructive feedback for it's success, else go play something else. You can't satisfy everyone, and AoC is NOT a game made for every type of gamer.

*End Rant*
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

Plixen

Grimfaldra wrote: »

Pl1x wrote: »

Screw damagemeter, screw multiboxing, don't worry about family travel or 1v1 balance, let's try the game first, and i'm sure they'll change the things that doesn't work as well as intended.
They are doing this for the love of mmorpgs, and i think it'll be great!

That is a dangerous road to travel. Fact is, people want certain QoL things to exist since games have been handing them out like candy. That means there is a large portion of your clientele you are relying on to pay for your server upkeep that is vocal about wanting to have such things.

You can now do two things, basically. You can adamantly refuse to have them at launch or ever. If your game is realllly good, you can even get away with it for a time. It all depends on how the game will work without those perks. They have good ideas for that and I am curious about how that will pan out.

Doing something out of love for something is reallllly nice. And yes, they have the cash to bankroll that thing and push it over the starting line. And there are people in the world who could just make such a game for free and run it for free for the next 50 years. Fact is, you need the numbers to pay the bills if you are not one of those people.

Saying "screw it" to any and all suggestions that somehow are shit or collide with your "dream" is a sure way into a collosal failure. Or a game that will never get finished.

Never discard a single suggestion, always analyze them to find possible ways to exploit them, use bad suggestions to find ways that will make the game implode if implemented and once you have a hefty dossier of said things, you can try to weave something out of your own ideas and improve those with the good stuff in your binder.

As i said in the post you quoted, try it like they intended from launch, THEN consider to add things if they are needed.
People won't hit 50 the first couple days, so those things can be looked into and added later if they can make the game better.

Just hope that people will play this game like an mmorpg, an adventure, not a competition to be first and best.
Obviously those will exist, but hopefully not to wow levels.

8BitBaker

Pl1x wrote: »

All the "wow killers" have tried to copy a lot from wow, and see how long they lasted.
Please don't try to make them implement too many things from wow.

Honestly I don't think this is entirely true. A lot of games that people have talked about as being "WoW Killers" were... Just standard MMOs. They followed the standard genre tropes with little-to-no innovation or a single gimmick that defined the entire game.

While I obviously have zero desire for AoC to be an exact copy of WoW - or even vaguely similar to WoW - there's no denying that WoW has seen a lot of success and they must be doing something right. Because of this, I really don't think there's anything wrong with saying; "X system works really well in WoW and I'd like to see something similar here."

Xenotor

We are not even in Alpha 1 yet.
The moment Alpha 1 goes life the NDA goes away so everyone will be able to see the game.
If things dont work out in Alpha 1 and 2 they still have a year time to change it.

halbarz

Sussurro wrote: »

Just hearing Sharif speak, you can tell he's mulled over the ideas he will implement in this game for longer than we've been arguing what it should be. I'm open to the idea of suggestion from the community so long as it doesn't trample over what the developers are so clearly passionate about actualizing.

I personally started following this game because of Steven's vision, he does everything I have wanted from the small things such as no addons to the bigger aspects such as crafting, dungeons, raids, PVP and etc

When I read some of the suggestions people make and read them .. it's scary ... I do not want to generalize now but a lot of people just want this to be another wow based on the suggestions that I saw in the last few months.

it's scary at times hihi because that is the last thing I want. Wow for sure has plenty of nice people in its community and they are very welcome but I hope people understand that AoC is clearly not focusing on being another WoW. (some of the things will, of course, be the same, all MMO's have those)

MrScrewtape

I think the biggest problem right now with a majority of the suggestions is that everyone wants the game to be the way they want it to be.

Seeing a lot of PvPers come here and say "Let me PvP 100% of the time and have progression, and be OP and gank people all day long, I don't want to do PvE ever!", when in reality, the game just isn't meant to be played that way.

Game is meant to be a GROUP based game, but people are wanting 1vs1 balance and to be able to solo the world.

Too many games have tried to keep everyone happy and are afraid to say "sorry, you must group to be viable and things are balanced around 8vs8, not 1vs1". Not being willing to say that and trying to keep everyone happy is only going to lead to failure.

I really like the fact that there isn't a board of directors coming down hard on them saying "You must maximize profit and capture as much playerbase as possible!" I'd rather have a smaller group of players who absolutely are addicted to the game, then a larger playerbase who casually play it for a few months than all move onto the next big thing.

The game will not be for everyone, sorry it's a fact, suck it up and accept it or move on.

apmax

Grimfaldra wrote: »

There are no bad suggestions.

No there are definitely bad suggestions.

winner909098

apmax wrote: »

Grimfaldra wrote: »

There are no bad suggestions.

No there are definitely bad suggestions.

true, like the ones that people post after seeing the same thing, just to troll

Varkun

I can't help but feel that Intrepid has a very solid vision of what they want AOC to be, and come alpha 2 that vision for the most part will be there for all to see. There will be little we as supporters and followers can hope to change or influence before we enter these test phases. Once open testing begins yes we as a community will have some influence over systems through our feedback and how they evolve.

Many of the suggestions I see proposed here on the forums go far beyond just suggestions for tweaking proposed systems but would result on new systems entirely and to implement such would in effect be scope creep, and scope creep is one thing IS is very conscious of.

As to whether a suggestion is good or bad comes down to personal taste though consideration needs to be given as to how such systems would fit within the concept of Intrepid's vision for their MMO.

Khronus

Pl1x wrote: »

All the "wow killers" have tried to copy a lot from wow, and see how long they lasted.
Please don't try to make them implement too many things from wow.

I think it looks like Steven and his crew have a lot of good ideas, hope they go through with them, and don't listen to all the bad suggestions.

Screw damage meter, screw multiboxing, don't worry about family travel or 1v1 balance, let's try the game first, and i'm sure they'll change the things that doesn't work as well as intended.
They are doing this for the love of mmorpgs, and i think it'll be great!

A couple weeks ago I was 100% ALL FOR damage meters. I played a hunter and min/maxed for a LONG time to master the class and be the best on the server. It worked and I felt that glory. I could not have done it without a damage meter. I never commented on any of the forums because my initial reaction was "WE NEED IT!". After waiting...I can honestly say I don't want to see a damage meter. There is a curious voice inside my head telling me that it may be best to focus more on community effort rather than what I am use to.

@Grimfaldra There are bad suggestions. The dude suggested that cosmetics = pay to win because his version of "winning" was collecting 100% cosmetics..........that's just dumb haha

@Varkun Well spoken. I see a lot of suggestions that would mean overhauling entire systems and to me this falls under the category of just silly. We were all drawn to this game because of Intrepids vision. It amazes me that then some people want a complete shift in focus because it doesn't cater to their playstyle.

@8BitBaker During and after my leave of WoW I would hear a lot about "wow killers". I quickly realized that the term wow killer was simply being used as a way for 10+ million players to see a new product and potentially buy in. It never meant they were innovative enough to actually dismantle the most successful mmo of all time. I personally cannot stand what wow has become. The game was dying out so their only option was to feed on the communities nostalgia from a time when the game was actually decent and had a development team that cared for the players. For me, wow killed itself.

Grimfaldra

Maybe we should create a baseline what a suggestion is. Calling something stupid usually shows an inability to cope with a strange argument in a grown-up manner.

cosmetics=p2win is no suggestion, it is an opinion. And a transparently strange one at that.

A person repeating things that were said before can still be one, if the initial suggestion was not just an opinion.

In many discussions, people tend to forget that suggesting something is a two-step process. You lay out the things as they are now and then lay out an alternative way of doing things.

Therefore, by the very definition of a suggestion, it cannot be really bad or stupid. It can be non-feasible to implement, it can disrupt the game if implemented, it can be a plain attempt to increase the power of a certain playerbase. Any and all suggestions (not opinions that are covered in a veil to look like suggestions) can be evaluated and then discarded or used (entirely, partially or just as an inspiration).

And anyone developing a game that revolves around social interactions (be it in RL as a GM in a paper RPG or a MMO) is well advised to not just dismiss suggestions as silly or dumb. That is insulting the person who made them. One should try to discuss and -- after backing it with the facts -- dismiss it if it is really disruptive or changing the tone of the game too much. Like with many of the PVP suggestions floating around.

Alas, nowadays, online discussion means crapping on anything that is perceived as "stupid" or "useless" or "troll" instead of cooly analyzing it and then wreck it with facts or extracting what good there is in the suggestion. Nowadays, people do not stup until they think they have "won"...instead of creating threads that a dev can use to be inspired....or warned.

Khronus

Yeah, definitely disagree with your rambling @Grimfaldra

"by the very definition of a suggestion, it cannot be really bad or stupid" which the word translates to "an idea or plan put forward for consideration.".....how are you getting the idea that an idea or plan put forward for consideration cannot be bad or stupid? You are quite literally just typing and attempting to sound intelligent in a gaming forum. It isn't working. At the end of the day, you took my post which indeed was just a silly rant about the stupid posts people are clogging the forums with and turned it into a technical discussions of the definition of terms who cares at this point. Nobody else read the far. Move on to the next thread.

NelsonRebel

I don't know where people got the idea that suggestions or ideas cant be bad.

Of course there are objectively bad decisions and ideas. To say otherwise is a bit silly.

+1 For this post. Logic and reason

Child Item