[Idea] Combat QOL

During the recent 8/28 Twitch stream Steve reviewed combat briefly and I had an idea. I'm sure you all are inundated with ideas but haven't heard this mentioned.

For TAB abilities it's straight forward. Tab or click your target, use ability, job done. But for the action abilities instead of pressing Z to bring up a recticle, aiming the ability, then pressing the ability it may make more sense to hold down the ability, aim, then release the ability button to cast. For example:

Let's say you have a fireball combat ability (non tab target ability) set to Q. You could press and hold down Q and that would activate the aiming reticle, then move the mouse normally to aim the reticle at the target, then simply release Q to cast the fireball.

Has this been mentioned? If so I'm sorry. I've been activate for only a few months but this is a much simpler idea than tab targeting, pressing Z to activate reticle, then press ability, then press Z to reengage or disengage the reticle to go back to normal movement.

Anyone else have any other combat ideas mentioned or not mentioned? Very curious to start testing.

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Comments

Hurf Derfman

I like your idea.
I think that tapping the key sould be a quick fire, and holding it should let you aim with z being the default global aim mode button.

Maezriel

I like it.

Keep the toggle as an option but have this for players skilled enough to make use of quickly swapping back and forth.

Eikien

I think it's critical for action combat to be activated by a right mouse hold-toggle, not a keyboard press-toggle.

This is my proposal for a character controller that is suitable for action combat while still maintaining the comfort and responsiveness of a generic third person controller. The key mechanic is that holding down the right mouse button allows action abilities to be aimed like a third person shooter, with the character locked to facing the direction the camera is pointing. The most important point is that when not aiming, the player should be able to run in any direction without backpedaling. Backpedaling and strafing should be avoided at all costs in normal movement mode because of how stiff it makes regular character controllers feel, and should only happen when aiming with a reticle.

Action Combat Mode (3rd person shooter controller)

Active when right mouse button is held down
Character always faces camera forward
Aiming crosshair

W -> Run away from camera
S -> Backpedal toward camera
A -> Strafe left
D -> Strafe right

Free Movement Mode (generic 3rd person controller)

Left mouse drag to orbit camera
Character faces keyboard input direction
Action combat abilities attack in the character facing direction

W -> Run facing away from camera
S -> Run facing toward camera
A -> Run facing right of camera
D -> Run facing left of camera

A notable feature of this setup is that camera control is split between left click drag and right click drag, such that the player has the freedom to orbit the camera either with or without repositioning the character's facing direction.

Mouse Camera Control

Left Click Drag  -> Orbits camera around character
Right Click Drag -> Normal 3rd person shooter camera control

Hurf Derfman

@BreakeR
Yes well, hopefully we'll be able to rebind the controls.

Eikien

This idea is a bit more complicated than simply rebinding the controls, it's about overall camera movement and character control. The most notable example of this camera style is the difference between Legacy and Standard camera controls in Final Fantasy 14, with Legacy being more comfortable and allowing for 360 degree character rotation with keyboard input. I think this is necessary to achieving a comfortable hybrid combat experience because it allows the player to aim action combat abilities without having to enter reticle mode every time. For example, if you hold S to run towards the camera, then you activate an action combat ability to slash forward, the character should execute the slash towards the camera (at your face). This allows you to aim an action combat attack in any direction without having to enter reticle mode. Basically, it's about eliminating backpedaling and strafing when not in reticle mode, putting camera control on left click drag, then defaulting action combat to attack in the direction the character is facing. For more precise attacks like an archer aiming a bow, you can still hold down right mouse button to aim with a reticle. It's the best of both worlds.

virilikus

BreakeR wrote: »
I think it's critical for action combat to be activated by a right mouse hold-toggle, not a keyboard press-toggle.

This is my proposal for a character controller that is suitable for action combat while still maintaining the comfort and responsiveness of a generic third person controller. The key mechanic is that holding down the right mouse button allows action abilities to be aimed like a third person shooter, with the character locked to facing the direction the camera is pointing. The most important point is that when not aiming, the player should be able to run in any direction without backpedaling. Backpedaling and strafing should be avoided at all costs in normal movement mode because of how stiff it makes regular character controllers feel, and should only happen when aiming with a reticle.

Action Combat Mode (3rd person shooter controller)
Active when right mouse button is held down
Character always faces camera forward
Aiming crosshair (player optional)

W -> Run away from camera
S -> Backpedal toward camera
A -> Strafe left
D -> Strafe right
Free Movement Mode (generic 3rd person controller)
Left mouse drag to orbit camera
Character faces keyboard input direction
Action combat abilities attack in the character facing direction

W -> Run facing away from camera
S -> Run facing toward camera
A -> Run facing right of camera
D -> Run facing left of camera
A notable feature of this setup is that camera control is split between left click drag and right click drag, such that the player has the freedom to orbit the camera either with or without repositioning the character's facing direction.

Mouse Camera Control
Left Click Drag  -> Orbits camera around character
Right Click Drag -> Orbits camera around character and snaps character to face camera forward

Definitely agree with this. Easy fix would be just allowing full reassignment of your keys and ability to change it between hold and toggle.

Holding right click is by far the easiest way to quickly switch between two different camera modes.

Also it was unclear whether you could still tab target while in that mode. I think regardless of what camera mode you are in, you should still be able to use any of your abilities and should still be able to tab target.

Eikien

virilikus wrote: »

Also it was unclear whether you could still tab target while in that mode. I think regardless of what camera mode you are in, you should still be able to use any of your abilities and should still be able to tab target.

There are a couple ways this could be handled. I think the most ideal way is to use what's known as mouse-over targeting. When you're not aiming at anything in reticle mode, it defaults to your last tab target, but if you are hovering over something, it temporarily overrides your current tab target to that. It's particularly nice for a hybrid system, because it frees up the mouse-left click button to be used for default weapon attacks while in reticle mode. That's what I call true quality of life. The other option is to have it work like normal targeting, where you need to left click on things to acquire a new tab target in reticle mode. In this case, weapon attacks would have to remain on the keyboard input of Q.

Yuyukoyay

I think the way hellgate london did it would be better. In that game you could not access menus unless you held down a key to return the mouse to the screen or hit a hotkey. Since you are going to want to hold the right click down for about 98% of the time anyway. Why isn't that the default and when you need to access menus you hit the hotkey or use the toggle to go into mouse mode.

It sounds like the same thing but the layout is very different. Certain information would be shown assuming you are in action mode all the time as opposed to mouse mode. They'd have to put a basic reticle in game, but that's really not a big deal. Can literally just be a dot. xD

Example of what information might be revealed in action mode with a menu mode toggle is resources. So that you don't have to open the menu assuming there is only a couple overall resources to count. Things equivalent to gold, not every item in your bag that is a material. It's really not too different in general but the entire game being made with action mode being the default is really what matters. This is actually how WoW used to be on release. They changed it but I liked that way better.

You can then make a button so that when you turn the camera you look instead of turn. Probably just make that the right click function and bind the menu button to tilde or something.

The reticle can be how you select targets in action mode. That's why you would need one if this were the norm.

Dreoh

BreakeR wrote: »
I think it's critical for action combat to be activated by a right mouse hold-toggle, not a keyboard press-toggle.

This is my proposal for a character controller that is suitable for action combat while still maintaining the comfort and responsiveness of a generic third person controller. The key mechanic is that holding down the right mouse button allows action abilities to be aimed like a third person shooter, with the character locked to facing the direction the camera is pointing. The most important point is that when not aiming, the player should be able to run in any direction without backpedaling. Backpedaling and strafing should be avoided at all costs in normal movement mode because of how stiff it makes regular character controllers feel, and should only happen when aiming with a reticle.

Action Combat Mode (3rd person shooter controller)
Active when right mouse button is held down
Character always faces camera forward
Aiming crosshair (player optional)

W -> Run away from camera
S -> Backpedal toward camera
A -> Strafe left
D -> Strafe right
Free Movement Mode (generic 3rd person controller)
Left mouse drag to orbit camera
Character faces keyboard input direction
Action combat abilities attack in the character facing direction

W -> Run facing away from camera
S -> Run facing toward camera
A -> Run facing right of camera
D -> Run facing left of camera
A notable feature of this setup is that camera control is split between left click drag and right click drag, such that the player has the freedom to orbit the camera either with or without repositioning the character's facing direction.

Mouse Camera Control
Left Click Drag  -> Orbits camera around character
Right Click Drag -> Orbits camera around character and snaps character to face camera forward

This is essentially the exact system Guild Wars 2 uses for it's non-action-cam/tab-target-mode combat.

Edit: Actually not essentially, it IS the same system for when you don't have a target selected

Magavyn wrote: »

Has this been mentioned? If so I'm sorry. I've been activate for only a few months but this is a much simpler idea than tab targeting, pressing Z to activate reticle, then press ability, then press Z to reengage or disengage the reticle to go back to normal movement.

This is something I've been bringing up constantly on threads in this forum and haven't really gotten an answer. I'm sure everyone's seen one of my long ass comments talking about it by now lol. I even created a post right after today's livestream asking specifically about this that nobody has responded to yet.

Eikien

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Since you are going to want to hold the right click down for about 98% of the time anyway.

The idea should be to design a character controller in such a way that players don't need to hold down right click 98% of the time in the first place. Specifically, they should not need to be in 3rd person controller aiming mode to aim non-projectile abilities. Think about melee classes in particular. Most of their attacks are simply 360 degree grounded directional attacks and do not require vertical aiming. Any ability that is not a projectile will already function based upon character facing direction. Using WASD to aim non-projectile attacks is much more comfortable than using a reticle. As such, reticle aiming mode should be reserved for attacks that have a vertical aiming component and actually require it. If you activate an archer bow attack without being in reticle mode, it should just aim straight ahead of your character's facing direction.

Dreoh

The thing is they don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

GW2 already did that. Im not saying they need to copy GW2 1 for 1 but definitely use it as a baseline as a successful hybrid system.

raylegh

Can work if it is for Q or E. But, for me at least who has short fingers, is not comfortable if I have to keep pressing other keys like F or R while moving and doing some stuff.

I think that pressing Z to activate the reticle is fine and what are you saying only can be an addition to that not to replace the Z activation.

Dreoh

raylegh wrote: »

Can work if it is for Q or E. But, for me at least who has short fingers, is not comfortable if I have to keep pressing other keys like F or R while moving and doing some stuff.

I think that pressing Z to activate the reticle is fine and what are you saying only can be an addition to that not to replace the Z activation.

There's more keybinds you can use than just q and e, you have whatever mouse buttons you have, z, x, c, v, f, r, 1-4, and all of those combined with shift.

When i play gw2 my keybinds let me move with ease and are as follows

1. Mouse 4 (1 is auto attack in gw2 similar to AoC's Q ability)
2. Mouse 5
3. F
4. Q
5. E
6. Shift+ scroll wheel click (heal ability slot)
7. Z
8. X
9. C
10. R

And then for the profession abilities

1. Shift + mouse 4
2. Shift + mouse 5
3. Shift + f
4. Shift + q

And my swap weapons is shift + tab

As you can see all of my keybinds are close to movement keys on my left hand and use my free fingers on my right hand.
It might take a little getting used to sure but if you use "different control scheme" as an excuse for not trying it then you're setting yourself up with a mindset that leads to you missing out on things

Now i set up my keys specifically for myself, but there's so many ways you can customize it for yourself, don't restrict yourself to the keybinds they set for you.

raylegh

@Dreoh Maybe I was misunderstood. xD

I do also use keybinds that are close to movement keys and I have 5 free button mouse either.

I only meant that if I'm moving with W/A/S/D probably I can't hold down another keys. Even Z/X/C/V that my free big finger can press, it will just feel uncomfortable. Only if I have to hold down, I'm totally fine having skills in these keys and pressing them normally.

Dreoh

raylegh wrote: »

@Dreoh Maybe I was misunderstood. xD

I do also use keybinds that are close to movement keys and I have 5 free button mouse either.

I only meant that if I'm moving with W/A/S/D probably I can't hold down another keys. Even Z/X/C/V that my free big finger can press, it will just feel uncomfortable. Only if I have to hold down, I'm totally fine having skills in these keys and pressing them normally.

Oh yea fair enough, you don't hold down abilities in gw2 so i can't say i have experience with that lol

Eikien

For anyone wondering, one of the main things I'm advocating for is the "Legacy" movement style in Final Fantasy 14 as represented in this video. It would make it a lot easier to aim action abilities when not in action ability mode.

Dreoh

BreakeR wrote: »

For anyone wondering, one of the main things I'm advocating for is the "Legacy" movement style in Final Fantasy 14 as represented in this video. It would make it a lot easier to aim action abilities when not in action ability mode.

That works for melee, but not ranged abilities.

Well, maybe for ranged abilities if you're on a flat plane, but when you're dealing with verticality and whatnot it's not viable because your arrows/projectiles will shoot in the right direction, but fly over heads or into stairs.

Eikien

Exactly, but that's good. It works for all melee abilities, and even ranged abilities on a relatively flat plane. When you're not a flat plane, that's when you would hold right click to aim with a reticle.

Dreoh

The problem there is nobody wants to be attacking backwards towards the camera and then have to go into reticle mode and turn the camera around, and then aim precisely, and then fire.

And if you made it so that the camera jumps to face character facing when you go into reticle mode that's going to be very jarring

Eikien

When you transition into reticle mode, the camera never moves. It's the character that snaps to face the direction your camera is pointing. This is how the implementation works regardless of whether or not characters backpedal, so the jarring situation you're describing should never happen.

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