Tragnar wrote: » What I mean if there is going to able to have 2 40man raids then what is the raid going to be tuned for? To have the 2 raids in or just one? So far I have not given any thought to this issue and if it is implemented poorly that would mean a deal breaker to not play at all. Why bother with a game that you want to raid in when raid is laughably easy just, because it has no number scaling and you can just double the amount of people there. I would just prefer to have negative scaling, if there is more than 40 people than there will be aggressive scaling to inflate hp without any change in loot table
Abominatus wrote: » The lack of instanced dungeons and raids is the reason I hesitated to buy into Alpha, and I'm still not convinced I made the right decision. Making all PvE content uninstanced creates a fundamental imbalance in the game, in that it becomes impossible to tune for difficulty. While I get, and support, the idea of having some world bosses and broadening player engagement in the open world, I also think that if you want to attract a stable raiding community, you need to provide an environment in which they can be challenged by the PvE content and also one in which they can control to some degree their raiding time. Most raiding guilds want, and need, to be able to schedule their raids. If a guild finds that it cannot do the content it wants to do, when it wants to do it, then this will lead to frustration. If raids are facing challenging content, and are disrupted while doing it (either by being griefed, or by others joining in and making the content easier than it is "supposed" to be), the value that players assign to the achievement of completing that content is diminished. If you make all PvE content non-instanced, then effectively all content becomes PvP content. The balance does not swing the other way. I enjoy a bit of PvP, and I don't see any reason why open-world PvP should be discouraged. Getting involved in contested areas while trying to farm or gather materials or do quests is fine. But there needs to be a point at which I'm entitled to engage challenging PvE content for it's own sake without that content being either trivialized or gated by it being in the open world. Ultimately, I see enough value in this project that I'm willing to spend money to support it in pre-alpha because giving this vision an opportunity could result in something great. But if we get to a point where there's no meaningful PvE progression because everything is open world, then that will alienate a lot of potential long-term players (myself included), and an opportunity will have been missed. Those who think that instanced content eliminate the open world aspect of the game are overstating the problem. From the perspective of a veteran WoW player, I can say with absolute certainty that instances didn't hurt the open world in classic or TBC. What started to diminish the open world experience was the addition of features like being able to teleport into dungeons from the city, and being able to engage in that kind of instanced content without ever having to interact with the world inbetween. It became possible at some point to level to about 10, and then just sit in a city and spam dungeons to maximum level from then onwards. Obviously that's a terrible deterrent to having a great world environment, but there's no automatic slippery slope that takes you from "everything is open world" to dungeon-finder without the ability to find a middle-ground along the way.
Tragnar wrote: » I bought in to the ideas for socialization and build paths and many other amazing ideas, but it didn't occur to me that raids might have literally no challenge to them at all - and yeah solutions to address that usually simulate the raid being instanced. Maybe if the raid mobs had active hp scaling if there would be more than 40 players to counteract it. It had to disproportionate to discourage stacking people. Like 80 people would triple the hp instead of double it, because essentially you would have minimal amount of tanks and you are just adding another dps classes
Noaani wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » I bought in to the ideas for socialization and build paths and many other amazing ideas, but it didn't occur to me that raids might have literally no challenge to them at all - and yeah solutions to address that usually simulate the raid being instanced. Maybe if the raid mobs had active hp scaling if there would be more than 40 players to counteract it. It had to disproportionate to discourage stacking people. Like 80 people would triple the hp instead of double it, because essentially you would have minimal amount of tanks and you are just adding another dps classes The problem with this is that if your guild is trying to kill a boss, my guild can just get together along with all our alts and friends and add 160 people to that scaling system. Best of luck killing it now. Any system the developers make to deal with this will be cheesed either by a guild trying to kill the content, or a guild trying to stop the kill. There have been exactly three mechanics that I have seen to deal with this situation; instancing, phasing and encounter locking.
Abominatus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » I bought in to the ideas for socialization and build paths and many other amazing ideas, but it didn't occur to me that raids might have literally no challenge to them at all - and yeah solutions to address that usually simulate the raid being instanced. Maybe if the raid mobs had active hp scaling if there would be more than 40 players to counteract it. It had to disproportionate to discourage stacking people. Like 80 people would triple the hp instead of double it, because essentially you would have minimal amount of tanks and you are just adding another dps classes The problem with this is that if your guild is trying to kill a boss, my guild can just get together along with all our alts and friends and add 160 people to that scaling system. Best of luck killing it now. Any system the developers make to deal with this will be cheesed either by a guild trying to kill the content, or a guild trying to stop the kill. There have been exactly three mechanics that I have seen to deal with this situation; instancing, phasing and encounter locking. Very much this. As I said, there's nothing wrong with having some world-bosses in the game. Even some dungeons that are open-world. But I cannot imagine a way to build genuinely challenging PvE content without some means to restrict who can access it concurrently.
Noaani wrote: » 4, the kind of raid content that is found in many other games. The kind of content a top end guild can plan a few nights worth of activities a week around. The kind of content that guilds don't just kill the first time they take it on, but may in fact take weeks of trying to finally kill.
Tragnar wrote: » Noaani wrote: » 4, the kind of raid content that is found in many other games. The kind of content a top end guild can plan a few nights worth of activities a week around. The kind of content that guilds don't just kill the first time they take it on, but may in fact take weeks of trying to finally kill. As I understand it, instances are supposed to be utilized only for story content - not PvE content.
Xenotor wrote: » The open world dungeon they showed, had a separate boss room. I expect that to be the case for all open world bosses. All they need to do is to add a buff on the boss depending on the number of players in the boss room. Maybe add special powerful AoE Ability's if the number of players exceed a certain number.
Tragnar wrote: » I've played Classic wow and let me tell you it is so toxic when someone dislikes your guild for whatever reason and wipes you over and over, because of exactly these mechanics. My guild everytime just gives up on open world bosses, because even though they have great loot it is just so cancer to try to kill them
Tragnar wrote: » I suppose that will not be so easy, because I expect that raid rooms are not going to be accessible outside of the "open window"
