Death penalties during PVP events

Hi Guys, do you know will there be any death penalties during castle sieges, caravan pvp, guild wars etc etc?

I understand, that during these events, you wont suffer corruption penalties for killing other players, but what about when dying? I personally think, there still should be some exp penalty.

What do you think?

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Warth

last information was that PvE and PvP Deaths will have the same penalties.

This is subject to change in Alpha though

Mojottv

Warth wrote: »

last information was that PvE and PvP Deaths will have the same penalties.

This is subject to change in Alpha though

That's interesting, kind of defeats the purpose of accepting guild war then. I think penalties in pvp events and guild wars should be slightly lower than normal pve death or just open world pvp...

Tyrantor

I'm fairly certain they said or it may even say on the wiki that siege/arena deaths will not have the same death penalties or any. I'm not sure about the caravan or guild wars however. I asked about the guild war death penalties on this weeks Q&A maybe they'll pick it... lol

Azeem

Deaths in sieges/node wards or pretty much planned PVP events will not have death penalties I believe. In the open world the death penalty is the same for PVE and PVP unless you fight back and try to defend yourself in PVP then its cut in half I think.

Xyls

I think I would favor no death penalties in the opt in pvp content. I think that would encourage more people to participate.

Noaani

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

probably first time i can agree with you.

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

I don't think you will find any of the people who typically debate with you disagreeing. I don't want to see any risk cut out of the game whatsoever. Obviously I want to see as many systems in place to encourage as much PvP as possible. I really liked @Xyls idea in the war thread of having a tax that a losing guild needs to pay after a war.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

I don't think you will find any of the people who typically debate with you disagreeing. I don't want to see any risk cut out of the game whatsoever. Obviously I want to see as many systems in place to encourage as much PvP as possible. I really liked @Xyls idea in the war thread of having a tax that a losing guild needs to pay after a war.

I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, I've yet to play a game where coin loss was that big of a deal to a guild.

I'm similar to you in wanting to encourage as much PvP as possible, but my theory for the best way to make that happen is for the game to successfully appeal to as many people as possible, and placing them in to positions where they want to PvP, rather than making a game with limited appeal where PvP is likely all the time.

When you consider how few instances (pun intended) of not having any threat of PvP are needed to keep a significantly larger portion of people in a game, to me, that is well worth the trade off for the additional PvP those people will bring.

Mojottv

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

I don't think you will find any of the people who typically debate with you disagreeing. I don't want to see any risk cut out of the game whatsoever. Obviously I want to see as many systems in place to encourage as much PvP as possible. I really liked @Xyls idea in the war thread of having a tax that a losing guild needs to pay after a war.

Eghm, was my idea actually

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

I don't think you will find any of the people who typically debate with you disagreeing. I don't want to see any risk cut out of the game whatsoever. Obviously I want to see as many systems in place to encourage as much PvP as possible. I really liked @Xyls idea in the war thread of having a tax that a losing guild needs to pay after a war.

I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, I've yet to play a game where coin loss was that big of a deal to a guild.

I'm similar to you in wanting to encourage as much PvP as possible, but my theory for the best way to make that happen is for the game to successfully appeal to as many people as possible, and placing them in to positions where they want to PvP, rather than making a game with limited appeal where PvP is likely all the time.

When you consider how few instances (pun intended) of not having any threat of PvP are needed to keep a significantly larger portion of people in a game, to me, that is well worth the trade off for the additional PvP those people will bring.

Maybe something around oh I don't know just a number off the top of my head....20% instances?

How many times do we have to beat this to death. This horse simply has nothing left to give.

Xyls

Mojottv wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

I don't think you will find any of the people who typically debate with you disagreeing. I don't want to see any risk cut out of the game whatsoever. Obviously I want to see as many systems in place to encourage as much PvP as possible. I really liked @Xyls idea in the war thread of having a tax that a losing guild needs to pay after a war.

Eghm, was my idea actually

Hey don't claim credit on my ideas. I made it, you just approved upon it.

Xyls

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

Some death penalties are fine, but not the same as in the flagging/corruption sytem. You are going to die a lot more during pvp events then you are in the open world... even open world pve content.

Noaani

Xyls wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I would still like to see some death penalties in PvP events.

I personally think the fact that corruption is disabled and all players are treated as combatants (which halves the death penalties) is enough.

If there are to be any gains made from these PvP events, there also needs to be the ability to lose something, and the games death penalty is the only way there is to facilitate that. This simple fact of risk vs reward should always trump the need to get more people participating - and I am sure that anyone in this discussion that has argued risk vs reward in a PvE setting has no option other than to agree.

Some death penalties are fine, but not the same as in the flagging/corruption sytem. You are going to die a lot more during pvp events then you are in the open world... even open world pve content.

The corruption system is already disabled in the events being discussed here.

That leaves the only death penalties as experience debt (which includes reductions in health, mana, stats, skills, proficiencies and mob drop rates), and gear degridation.

Since these events also see players flagged as combatants, the above penalties are already applied at half the normal rate.

This is already too low a penalty for death in such events, as far as I am concerned.

Warth

Xyls wrote: »

I think I would favor no death penalties in the opt in pvp content. I think that would encourage more people to participate.

I can't quite agree with this.
The risk/reward system should be a part throughout.
If you want that castle ownership, then you should be ready to risk your gear durability/ exp to get it.
If you want to destroy someones Node, then you shlould risk it as well.

Your suggestion would just support suicide monkey playstyles. "You die? Who cares, wait 30 seconds and join back into the fight". This just promotes idiotic patterns in a mass pvp scenario.
A death should sting, no matter where it happens. Avoiding it should be a secondary objective in every type of content.

No death penalties make mass pvp simply worse.

Xyls

Warth wrote: »

Xyls wrote: »

I think I would favor no death penalties in the opt in pvp content. I think that would encourage more people to participate.

I can't quite agree with this.
The risk/reward system should be a part throughout.
If you want that castle ownership, then you should be ready to risk your gear durability/ exp to get it.
If you want to destroy someones Node, then you shlould risk it as well.

Your suggestion would just support suicide monkey playstyles. "You die? Who cares, wait 30 seconds and join back into the fight". This just promotes idiotic patterns in a mass pvp scenario.
A death should sting, no matter where it happens. Avoiding it should be a secondary objective in every type of content.

No death penalties make mass pvp simply worse.

Not in my experience. If you go into a castle siege that is going to last hours, you are going to die quite a lot. You will die more in that 2 hour siege then you would probably in an entire week just running around the open world.

I am fine with some penalties during PvP content, gear durability could definitely be one. I think exp loss, even at 50%, is too much for PvP content where you are auto flagged.

With all that said, having the full death penalties is fine with me as well. This is a minor topic to me when it comes to the overall AoC game.

Noaani

Xyls wrote: »

exp loss

The penalty is not experience loss, it is experience debt.

These are drastically different things.

Xyls

Noaani wrote: »

Xyls wrote: »

exp loss

The penalty is not experience loss, it is experience debt.

These are drastically different things.

Should have said debt but they aren't drastically different. Debt is just a slower, gradual decline of your character's ability to function. Whether it causes your character to delevel or not (AoC won't allow you to delevel), your character gets weaker.

Mojottv

Well, the way i understand exp dept is that its bqsically the same as loosing exp, as in order to progress ur character you will need to een dept amount of exp and only then you actually earn exp to lvl ur char.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Well, the way i understand exp dept is that its bqsically the same as loosing exp, as in order to progress ur character you will need to een dept amount of exp and only then you actually earn exp to lvl ur char.

The key factor between experience debt and experience loss is that experience loss only has a penalty associated with it if you lose a level.

Experience debt allows the developer to place a penalty on the character as long as they have that debt owing.

In Ashes, As xlys said, you will not be deleveled due to experience debt. As such, experience debt is a significantly lesser penalty than experience loss (ask anyone that found themselves in a bad situation in EQ and lost 5+ levels in a day).

However, the other side of this coin is that the full penalty will be applied immediately when you go in to debt, rather than only applying if you lose a level.

In both cases, the need to re-earn the experience holds true, but in regards to experience debt that is almost a complete non-factor. The only time you won't make that debt back up is on top end content where you spend several dozen deaths figuring it out, and then get a single boss kill for your efforts - or in a PvP situation where you are losing badly.

All other situations will see you either wipe your debt before finishing, or coming very close to it.

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