Aggro mechanics

As per the wiki we don’t know much about the aggro system except it will be based on hate/threat. I always thought this was too simple and gave player to much control. I find it ridiculous to see tanks solo dragons with lots of mages behind. The threat is not the tank.
I’m not saying we should get rid of hate/threat but there must be a more immersive middle ground don’t you think.
Do you think AoC will do something different or follow the same patterns as other MMORPGs with this concept?

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Noaani

There are some games that have tried to move away from the general mechanic of threat.

The problem is, the entire combat and class system has to change if you remove this.

If you look at threat as a means by which the tank forces the enemy to focus on them rather than focusing on the group or raid member that is the biggest threat, then that immersion comes back in to play.

As an example, in PvP, if a tanks taunts forced their enemies to target said tank, then tanks will become the primary initial focus of PvP because you can't attack the other players until the tanks are out of the way.

In conjunction with actual spatial control (player and enemy collision and such), looking at threat in this way means it makes a whole lot more sense.

Sunboy

Noaani wrote: »

There are some games that have tried to move away from the general mechanic of threat.

The problem is, the entire combat and class system has to change if you remove this.

Yes. Removing it would be silly. I’m not suggesting that.
I was looking for possible overlapping mechanics. But could not find any.

daveywavey

Is the threat the line of mages behind the tank, or is the threat the healer keeping them alive?
Is the threat the healer, or the ranger laying traps everywhere?
Is the threat the ranger, or the summoner bringing more enemies into the fight?
Is the threat the summoner, or the rogue that's just appeared behind your own healer?

There are a lot variables in the term "Threat".

Wandering Mist

Whenever someone brings up this topic I'm always reminded of the WoW raiding panel from Blizzcon 2005 by Jeff Kaplan, where he brings up this exact point - "Killing players is easy". Yes, they could design the boss to go after the healers and casters first and ignore the tanks, but this would make for a rubbish encounter.

The only game I know of that somewhat successfully moved away from threat as a mechanic is GuildWars. In that game, mobs used a priority system based on proximity and stats. So if you had a low health, low armour caster standing next to a high health, high armour tank, the mobs will target the caster first.

This approach meant that "tanking" was more about positioning, using CC and body-blocking, and it also meant casters had to be a lot more mindful of their positioning. Walk too close to the mobs and you'll get insta-gibbed by the mobs.

Was it better than the traditional threat system? I wouldn't say it was better or worse, just different. I would like to see another game try a similar concept and actually expand on the system though.

Anyway, for those interested here's the video I'm talking about (the smart raid boss section is at 7:58):

https://youtu.be/Falm0H7VEiQ?t=478

Noaani

Sunboy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

There are some games that have tried to move away from the general mechanic of threat.

The problem is, the entire combat and class system has to change if you remove this.

Yes. Removing it would be silly. I’m not suggesting that.
I was looking for possible overlapping mechanics. But could not find any.

The only other mechanic involved is - as I suggested - player collision.

A tank doesn't necessarily need to rely on hate to keep enemies away from allies - the tank can simply block the path between enemy and ally, preventing the enemy from getting to the ally.

Tanking in Ashes will require both.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

The only game I know of that somewhat successfully moved away from threat as a mechanic is GuildWars. In that game, mobs used a priority system based on proximity and stats. So if you had a low health, low armour caster standing next to a high health, high armour tank, the mobs will target the caster first.

I've seen talk of games that have looked at incorperating aspects of this in to a more traditional threat based system.

It kind of resulted in threat generation being increased or decreased based on your proximity to the target, your health, and how susceptable you are to a given damage type, but still had the tank taunting targets and such.

None of these games got close to an actual product - but they had the major issue of tanks being more effective when almost dead - though if they based these nodifiers to threat generation on armor type (plate armor generates more threat with more health, cloth generates more threat with less health), I could see it working.

Sunboy

I totally agree with Jeff that encounters should be as he says “fun and creative” and killing priests on the spot would be boring.

But I don’t think they made the fights very creative. Fun. Yes. But for other reasons. And not just bosses but small mobs as well.

Player collision is the answer I wanted Noaani. I think this will add depth to mobs and how players handle thrash mobs and bosses.

Percimes

I hope the tank secondary will give some form of agro capability. SWTOR had a range tank spec for the trooper, I don't remember seeing that before nor do I know if the concept has been applied in other games. It was a cool idea.

Sathrago

Well, one way I could see a non-threat based system that focuses healers and casters would be if tanks were redesigned to by magical means or otherwise "jump in front of" damage for others or be really good at reducing the damage. Something along the lines of a ping pong paddle for the party to swat at mobs to keep them off the squishies.

Do I think this would be a good system? Well I am not sure, it would require extensive testing and countless iterations.

Or we could use the tried and true method of tank hold aggro.

Katak

I agree with the Guild Wars II approach mentioned earlier. No amount of threat/aggro (with the strict exception of magically-induced focus/hatred) should prevent an enemy from taking an attack of opportunity against a badly positioned mage or otherwise weakened player.

In essence, the mages should be the ones deflecting aggression to the frontline, not the frontline 'pulling enemies off' of allies, aside from abilities that manipulate the positioning of enemies (knockdown, shove, hook and the like).

This extends itself to PvP as well. Mage-types and otherwise low defense classes should use illusion, stealth, and other means to extend their survivability, since they will inevitably be targeted first.

McShave

Wandering Mist wrote: »

The only game I know of that somewhat successfully moved away from threat as a mechanic is GuildWars. In that game, mobs used a priority system based on proximity and stats. So if you had a low health, low armour caster standing next to a high health, high armour tank, the mobs will target the caster first.

This approach meant that "tanking" was more about positioning, using CC and body-blocking, and it also meant casters had to be a lot more mindful of their positioning. Walk too close to the mobs and you'll get insta-gibbed by the mobs.

This sounds awesome. Since ashes doesn't have addons, i don't see this game having threat meters which means keeping track of threat would be extremely difficult. This kinda system goes around that, prioritizing player skill and positioning over maybe not doing as much damage as you could because you're afraid of pulling aggro.

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