Expanding on the Bounty Hunter system

I would like to attempt an expansion of the bounty hunting system that also expands open world pvp in a meaningful way. Before I can do that I will first post all that we currently know about the bounty hunting system, simply a quote from the wiki.

Wiki quote here.

With that out of the way I now go to my suggestions.

I would like to introduce the Bandit as a more normalized opposition to the bounty hunter as I feel that corruption will not be as rampant as one might think. This gives players the ability to play more often and progress as a bounty hunter, or choose to be more disruptive but not to the degree that they kill and gain corruption.

Similar to the bounty hunter title that you can gain via questing, I would like to see a similar Bandit title that you can unlock within the thieves guild.
A Bandit would be a player that can activate the Pillager ability making their attacks against another player non-lethal as well as making you hostile to node guard npcs. This means when they making a player hit 0 hit-points the player does not die and goes unconscious for 30 seconds. Bounty Hunters will instead be killed when they reach 0 hit-points, increasing the bounty on the bandit by a moderate amount. Attacking another player while using the Pillager ability gives you the "Wanted!" debuff, allowing nearby bounty hunters to track you. While downed in this manner the player can be looted, giving the bandit a portion of any certificates or materials on the player in the form of a stolen goods bag. This portion should be slightly less or equal to the amount of goods dropped when killing a combatant player, and increases in percentage the higher rank the bandit is. This bag has the downed players name on it and can be returned to the thieves guild and exchanged for the contents of the bag and progression as a bandit. However if the bandit is attacked and killed by a bounty hunter, the bag can be looted along with the bandit's head and the normal combatant loot drops. The bag can be returned to the original player for a Fee equal to 20% of the vendor value of the items (via CoD mail or trade) granting progression to the bounty hunter while the head can be taken to the inn to complete the bounty quest.
To prevent camping, a downed player will gain a "Penniless" debuff that prevents them from being attacked by a bandit for 5 or more minutes (this time would need testing.) Bounty Hunters lose this debuff if they activate their Pathfinding ability. Knocking down a player that is 10 or more levels lower than your own level will give you some amount of corruption (TBD).
Bandits gain an increasing bonus to the percentage of certificates and materials they can loot from a player by progressing their ranking.

Now, for how this affects bounty hunters specifically.

Bounty hunters will be able to track down both bandit and corrupted players using the Pathfinder ability. While the Pathfinder ability is activated you will be automatically flagged for both corrupted and Pillager-activated players. Bounties will be posted for players that have the "Wanted!" debuff, but will give less rewards than dealing with corrupted players. The fee system from returning stolen goods could offset this, thus making tracking down bandits just as worthwhile as corrupted players in some instances.
The bounty placed on a bandit will corollate with the ranking of the bandit and a loose estimation of the goods stolen. This bounty goes away if the bandit manages to return to a thieves guild hideout and turn in the stolen goods. Thief Hideouts would be secret locations throughout the map that are difficult to get to, most likely within or near highly contested zones. Making these instanced will make it easier to sprinkle around the map and make sense that only a bandit could find/enter such a place. However I am not against making non-instanced. This is up to the developer, whatever works best.

Now this is all I have so far, and I would love to hear any ideas to improve upon this. The goal in this system is to provide another form of freedom to how players interact with each other within a certain degree that should not cause too much inconvenience to players that do not wish to participate in it. Allowing players the freedom to play the bad guy within reasonable bounds feels like a good idea to me from both an open world PvX standpoint and an RP one.

This also allows players to more often just play as a bounty hunter rather than doing it ever so often when a corrupted player comes waddling about.

Anyway, if you are fully 1000% against the entire idea then it really doesn't add much to the conversation so please just say you dont like it and move on or provide some feedback so I can flesh this out a bit more. I am not here to argue you if you dislike the entire concept.

The bold parts are edited/new information.

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ThePhilosophile

Sathrago wrote: »

I would like to attempt an expansion of the bounty hunting system that also expands open world pvp in a meaningful way. Before I can do that I will first post all that we currently know about the bounty hunting system, simply a quote from the wiki.

"Wiki quote here"

With that out of the way I now go to my suggestions.

I would like to introduce the Bandit as a more normalized opposition to the bounty hunter as I feel that corruption will not be as rampant as one might think. This gives players the ability to play more often and progress as a bounty hunter, or choose to be more disruptive but not to the degree that they kill and gain corruption.

Similar to the bounty hunter title that you can gain via questing, I would like to see a similar Bandit title that you can unlock within the thieves guild.
A Bandit would be a player that can activate the Pillager ability making their attacks against another player non-lethal. This means when they making a player hit 0 hit-points the player does not die and goes unconscious for 30 seconds. Attacking another player while using the Pillager ability gives you the "Wanted!" debuff, allowing nearby bounty hunters to track you. While downed in this manner the player can be looted, giving the bandit a portion of any certificates or materials on the player this could work, but it must be a Maximum of 50% of what a corrupted player would get in the form of a stolen goods bag. This bag has the downed players name on it and can be returned to the thieves guild and exchanged for the contents of the bag and progression as a bandit. However if the bandit is attacked and killed by a bounty hunter, the bag can be looted along with the bandit's head and the normal combatant loot drops. The bag can be returned to the original player for a Fee=to 20% of the vendor value of the items granting progression to the bounty hunter while the head can be taken to the inn to complete the bounty quest. If the bounty hunter cannot find or does not wish to return the goods to the original owner, they can turn it in to an inn for a small gold reward instead.
To prevent camping, a downed player will gain a "Penniless" debuff that prevents them from being attacked by a bandit for 15 -30 5 minutes (this time would need testing.) Bounty Hunters lose this debuff if they activate their Pathfinding ability.
Bandits gain an increasing bonus to the percentage of certificates and materials they can loot from a player by progressing their ranking.

Now, for how this affects bounty hunters specifically.

Bounty hunters will be able to track down both bandit and corrupted players using the Pathfinder ability. While the Pathfinder ability is activated you will be automatically flagged for both corrupted and Pillager-activated players. Bounties will be posted for players that have the "Wanted!" debuff, but will give less rewards than dealing with corrupted players. the fee system from returning stolen goods could offset this, thus making tracking down bandits just as worthwhile as corrupted players in some instances
The bounty placed on a bandit will corollate with the amount of stolen goods and bounty hunters should not know the amount of stolen goods or their value until they actually kill the bandit perhaps a range of value but thats the most I'm willing to accept.the ranking of the bandit. This bounty goes away if the bandit manages to return to a thieves guild hideout and turn in the stolen goods Thieves guilds have to be located in High Combat PVP areas, or returning stolen goods will be too easy, additionally they should be located far away from resource locations.

Now this is all I have so far, and I would love to hear any ideas to improve upon this. The goal in this system is to provide another form of freedom to how players interact with each other within a certain degree that should not cause too much inconvenience to players that do not wish to participate in it. Allowing players the freedom to play the bad guy within reasonable bounds feels like a good idea to me from both an open world PvX standpoint and an RP one.

This also allows players to more often just play as a bounty hunter rather than doing it ever so often when a corrupted player comes waddling about.

Anyway, if you are fully 1000% against the entire idea then it really doesn't add much to the conversation so please just say you dont like it and move on or provide some feedback so I can flesh this out a bit more. I am not here to argue you if you dislike the entire concept.

My additions to this idea are in the form of crossed out texts and bolded additions. let me know what you think.

daveywavey

Sort of defeats the point of the Corruption system, surely? You're letting players loot others without needing to go Red.

Sathrago

daveywavey wrote: »

Sort of defeats the point of the Corruption system, surely? You're letting players loot others without needing to go Red.

Well the goal of the corruption system is to prevent players from griefing each other. The bandit will not get the same amount of loot as a corrupted player would when killing a non-combatant. It would be a base amount equal to or slightly less than killing a combatant but scale up with the ranking of the bandit. Remember that a downed player is not killed, so they do not suffer the other effects of death, just some material/certificate loss.

@ThePhilosophile Good spot on the stolen goods not being equal to a corrupted player, yes I need to specify that it will be something similar to or less than the combatant kill loot initially. This would scale up with the ranking of the bandit but would never reach the amount of killing a non-combatant.

As for the part where the stolen goods bag is returned only to players, I am fine with the fee but I wanted you to be able to do something with the bag if the player was unavailable. Perhaps the bounty hunter can CoD it via mail?

Im fine with it just being the ranking of the bandit for the bounty.

Thieves guilds have to be located in High Combat PVP areas, or returning stolen goods will be too easy, additionally they should be located far away from resource locations.

Yes this will need some testing but I can get behind some thief hideouts scattered across the world for you to turn the stolen goods into. It would probably be a good idea to have the hideout be an instanced area since its supposed to be a secret that only bandits can get into.

ThePhilosophile

@Sathrago CoD should be fine for returning goods. the point of a bandit system should be that your avoiding corruption but the time it takes to get resources has to be alot longer than it would be for getting them through the corruption system. Also other negative effects perhaps being unable to use node services should be considered.

Sathrago

ThePhilosophile wrote: »

@Sathrago CoD should be fine for returning goods. the point of a bandit system should be that your avoiding corruption but the time it takes to get resources has to be alot longer than it would be for getting them through the corruption system. Also other negative effects perhaps being unable to use node services should be considered.

Yes another thing I forgot is making guards hostile. This will work the same as if the player was corrupted. Apparently corrupted players can still use the services if they can sneak past the guards.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Well the goal of the corruption system is to prevent players from griefing each other.

To be clear, this is *one* goal of the corruption system, not *the* goal of the corruption system.

CptBrownBeard

This reads more like expanding on ways to avoid corruption rather than bounty hunting. My understanding was that the BH system was included to further disencourage excessive green-killing for killing's sake. Creating a professional bandit/raider/assassin/whatever-else-you-wanna-call-it would only exacerbate an issue Steven wants to avoid: attacking non-combatants purely for singular personal gain rather than for the good of one's node.

In other words, the BH system was designed with a simple premise in mind. No need to expand on it much as long as it does its job in-game.

But if you give a mouse a cookie...

Sathrago

CptBrownBeard wrote: »

This reads more like expanding on ways to avoid corruption rather than bounty hunting. My understanding was that the BH system was included to further disencourage excessive green-killing for killing's sake. Creating a professional bandit/raider/assassin/whatever-else-you-wanna-call-it would only exacerbate an issue Steven wants to avoid: attacking non-combatants purely for singular personal gain rather than for the good of one's node.

In other words, the BH system was designed with a simple premise in mind. No need to expand on it much as long as it does its job in-game.

But if you give a mouse a cookie...

Bounty hunting is not going to be used very often in the current game setup as combatants and non combatants can just zerg down red players who will have combat penalties when trying to fight back.
Leaving bounty hunter as a nothing but a deterrent for red players feels like a lost opportunity and I wished to progress the idea rather than let it stagnate.

I want there to be more bounty hunting opportunities and make it more of a job and not a random happen-stance. On the flip side the bandit system is to allow players to make a living through slightly disrupting other players within a system that does not allow griefing. If you knock someone down as a bandit you do not give them death penalties and they do not have to run all the way back from the spawn point. They can even attempt to hunt you down or round up nearby bounty hunters to come and get their loot bag back.

Heres an example of how I see this playing out. Out in the woods there is a good farming spot for fox pelts that players use to make coin. A group of bandits come along and attack the players there. Knocking them out and taking some of the pelts that they farmed. The bandits decide to hang around waiting for the players to get back up and continue farming. While this is happening they have had a bounty placed within nearby inns, and a group of bounty hunters will be taking up the bounty and heading out there to help. Eventually the original farming group will choose to leave, or they will wait for the professional bounty hunters to come and deal with the bandits. Now the bandits can either choose to try and run away with the loot, being potentially chased down, or attempt to and fight to get rid of their pursuers.
Either way if the bandits get caught they die allowing the bounty hunter to return all of the materials taken away to their rightful owners for a small fee + earning a reward for the bounty.

Boom, we just played cops and robbers in an mmo in a way that I hope to immerse you in the role of a bandit or a bounty hunter. All without griefing capabilities and within a risk/reward system that makes the world more lively for bounty hunters as well as adding in a fun new role for more pvp oriented players that just wanna go have fun killing other players for loot or saving others from dirty bandits.

Cadac

I like this idea. Worth a trail on the test server after launch. I have a question though. Would the "Bandit" status be persistent, or fade with death like corruption?

Sathrago

Cadac wrote: »

I like this idea. Worth a trail on the test server after launch. I have a question though. Would the "Bandit" status be persistent, or fade with death like corruption?

Being a bandit would be a title, its the Pillager activatable ability that flags you for all the fun stuff. So if you die the Pillager buff would go away, allowing you to go about your business as a normal player. This would indeed need testing as a toggle but im sure we can find an appropriate balance for that.

Dygz

This is an odd request.
One of the primary incentives/rewards for attacking a player in "the hunting grounds" is to acquire the victim's resources. Attacking a non-combatant to steal their resources results in Corruption.
But, you propose having people just bypass PvP combat and Corruption by stealing resources with a Bandit skill/ability. So that Bounty Hunters can have more fun?

Again...
In Ashes, the PvP focus is intended to be on objective-based activities, like Caravans, Castle Sieges and Node Sieges. PvP outside of those battlegrounds come with the risk of Corruption. "Non-consensual trade" is also a form of PvP...and I would expect Corruption to also be a consequence fore that.
I have a strong feeling the devs will not support this form of stealing...probably for more reasons than what I've mentioned.

Sathrago

Dygz wrote: »

This is an odd request.
One of the primary incentives/rewards for attacking a player in "the hunting grounds" is to acquire the victim's resources. Attacking a non-combatant to steal their resources results in Corruption.

Stealing does not give corruption. The evidence for this is that corruption would happen so often within the society that it would all crumble. Corrupted players murder people to further themselves in either a material or emotional way. What I propose are bandits who knock people out to gain a profit. It is a lesser evil that given the right context or story could even be a good thing to do as far as morals are considered.

But, you propose having people just bypass PvP combat and Corruption by stealing resources with a Bandit skill/ability.

No, you are either reading something wrong or trying to twist words into your own meaning. This is pvp, I never once said that it wasn't. You go up and attack other players with the intent to steal items off the player if you manage to get them to 0 hit points, thereby knocking them unconscious and looting some goods. The risk is that the bandit can be killed by either the player during the fight or afterwards by a bounty hunter or the player wishing to exact revenge/get their goods back.

So that Bounty Hunters can have more fun?

Bounty hunters should be more like a profession rather than this thing you pick up and can do every so often, I don't like the idea of leaving it purely for corrupted players. Not to mention this creates a really cool role play dynamic and social trust system. If you see someone with the bounty hunter title it might be easier to trust them not to attack you randomly out in the open world where as a bandit title would have the opposite effect.

Again...
In Ashes, the PvP focus is intended to be on objective-based activities, like Caravans, Castle Sieges and Node Sieges. PvP outside of those battlegrounds come with the risk of Corruption.

Would it shock and awe you that I am offering a system that lets players dive a bit more into pvp that has less of a fixed objective and more of a loose objective? Bandits have a goal of stealing resources from other players, bounty hunters have a goal of hunting bounties to keep their node farming spots safe and citizens happy all for a profit. If you really need it to fit into your "objective-based system" then how's this?

Bandits attack players with the objective, "Stolen bag of Goods", becoming similar to a "caravan" in that they need to deliver it to a location and can be tracked by other players. Bounty hunters are the attacking side for this "caravan" and upon defeating the bandit gain the objective, the "Stolen bag of Goods". This can then be returned to its owner and life goes on.

"Non-consensual trade" is also a form of PvP...and I would expect Corruption to also be a consequence fore that.
I have a strong feeling the devs will not support this form of stealing...probably for more reasons than what I've mentioned.

If the world that they are structuring causes people that steal from others to gain corruption then the world is contradictory and makes no sense. Corruption is for the most vile of acts, murder, and other actions. Stealing is not that high on the list of moral crimes and like I have said before, in the right context it could be seen as a good act. However, I will say that there is potential for griefing if a high level player were to do this to low level players so perhaps we could add that knocking a player down 9 or more levels below yours results in corruption.

As for whether the devs would agree with the idea or not, That's why we need to throw them ideas to mull over. Our input develops the game as well, and I am perfectly fine if with them not taking and using the ideas I put forth.

BlackBrony

I don't get it. You want to rob people, don't suffer any consequences.
Let's say you don't get 50% of target resources, how much do you want? 20%? For having no consequences? That seems a lot.

You could easilly "sleep" a target close to a node and deliver your quest without suffering any penalties. Also, imagine this used in real PvP, putting people to sleep.

Why doesn't the target get a chance to fight back? You just loot it like an NPC, where is their agenda? What can they do to avoid this?

maouw

@BlackBrony
An awkward solution is to give the victim a huge "adrenaline rush" movespeed boost (unless they turn around and attack) so it's easier for them to run away.
I agree though, the problem with this system is that greens get punished for existing.
But I can also see that there won't be enough corrupted players for bounty hunters to hunt.

What if you have NPC gatherers that bandits/corrupted can kill instead? Literally the same thing, since a green doesn't fight back.

Sathrago

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't get it. You want to rob people, don't suffer any consequences.
Let's say you don't get 50% of target resources, how much do you want? 20%? For having no consequences? That seems a lot.

You could easilly "sleep" a target close to a node and deliver your quest without suffering any penalties. Also, imagine this used in real PvP, putting people to sleep.

Why doesn't the target get a chance to fight back? You just loot it like an NPC, where is their agenda? What can they do to avoid this?

Huh? you must be miss-reading my post... The only thing different between a bandit attacking you and a corrupted player attacking you is that the bandit player doesnt kill you when you would hit 0 hit points. You are knocked out for a few seconds and the only penalty is some materials. The bandit can be killed this entire time and dies as a combatant with the combatant death penalties.
The target always gets to fight back, there is no mechanic suggested here that just steals peoples loot like you say.

maouw wrote: »

@BlackBrony
An awkward solution is to give the victim a huge "adrenaline rush" movespeed boost (unless they turn around and attack) so it's easier for them to run away.
I agree though, the problem with this system is that greens get punished for existing.
But I can also see that there won't be enough corrupted players for bounty hunters to hunt.

What if you have NPC gatherers that bandits/corrupted can kill instead? Literally the same thing, since a green doesn't fight back.

Well its a dangerous world and It felt like there was something missing from the bounty hunting system.

Also, what's with this "greens don't fight back" nonsense? Sure some may not want to fight back and can choose that route but there will more than likely be those that do fight back and end up killing the bandit. Just because someone is green doesn't mean they have to be crybaby carebears that shriek and run away the moment pvp happens.

The chance that greens get the materials back is quite high if there are bounty hunters working in the area, you could even try to farm in areas with higher concentrations of bounty hunters to avoid being attacked by bandits. Do not forget that bandits will have to sit there for quite a long time if they wanna try to "farm" a singular area for stolen loot bags, further increasing the chance bounty hunters make their way over to deal with them.

maouw

@Sathrago if they fight back they turn puple - and you can't get corruption from killing purples.
You can only get corruption from killing people who don't fight back.

BlackBrony

Sathrago wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't get it. You want to rob people, don't suffer any consequences.
Let's say you don't get 50% of target resources, how much do you want? 20%? For having no consequences? That seems a lot.

You could easilly "sleep" a target close to a node and deliver your quest without suffering any penalties. Also, imagine this used in real PvP, putting people to sleep.

Why doesn't the target get a chance to fight back? You just loot it like an NPC, where is their agenda? What can they do to avoid this?

Huh? you must be miss-reading my post... The only thing different between a bandit attacking you and a corrupted player attacking you is that the bandit player doesnt kill you when you would hit 0 hit points. You are knocked out for a few seconds and the only penalty is some materials. The bandit can be killed this entire time and dies as a combatant with the combatant death penalties.
The target always gets to fight back, there is no mechanic suggested here that just steals peoples loot like you say.

It doens't add up. EVERYONE has combatant death penalties, which is when you're purple. If you die as green you actually get even worst penalties.
Where is your penalty as a bandit? If they green fights back, it's the same as it's now.
If they don't fight back, you get loot, don't get corruption, and if I understand correctly you get a faster way to clear the "corruption" because you just need to deliver the loot to thieve's guild, or am I missing something?

Sathrago

maouw wrote: »

@Sathrago if they fight back they turn puple - and you can't get corruption from killing purples.
You can only get corruption from killing people who don't fight back.

You get corruption from killing people. That is the key point. That is why stealing does not corrupt you in this world. If I beat you into unconsciousness and steal your stuff, sure thats mean and annoying, but thats not so vile that they would become corrupted. Now, i am thinking of saying that you will gain corruption from stealing from players much lower in level than you to avoid a scenario where high level players go and bully low level players. At that point it would be a malicious act as you are abusing those much weaker than you that cannot fight back. Ill add this as: If you attack and knock a player unconscious that is 10 or more levels lower than yourself you will gain corruption.

Sathrago

BlackBrony wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't get it. You want to rob people, don't suffer any consequences.
Let's say you don't get 50% of target resources, how much do you want? 20%? For having no consequences? That seems a lot.

You could easilly "sleep" a target close to a node and deliver your quest without suffering any penalties. Also, imagine this used in real PvP, putting people to sleep.

Why doesn't the target get a chance to fight back? You just loot it like an NPC, where is their agenda? What can they do to avoid this?

Huh? you must be miss-reading my post... The only thing different between a bandit attacking you and a corrupted player attacking you is that the bandit player doesnt kill you when you would hit 0 hit points. You are knocked out for a few seconds and the only penalty is some materials. The bandit can be killed this entire time and dies as a combatant with the combatant death penalties.
The target always gets to fight back, there is no mechanic suggested here that just steals peoples loot like you say.

It doens't add up. EVERYONE has combatant death penalties, which is when you're purple. If you die as green you actually get even worst penalties.
Where is your penalty as a bandit? If they green fights back, it's the same as it's now.
If they don't fight back, you get loot, don't get corruption, and if I understand correctly you get a faster way to clear the "corruption" because you just need to deliver the loot to thieve's guild, or am I missing something?

You are missing the point I have already tried to tell you. The bandit's victim suffers no death penalties aside from something similar to or less than the combatant's material loss. 30 seconds or so later you can get back up and attempt to hunt the bandit down or go about your merry way as they cannot attack you for 5 or more minutes after stealing from you already. Bandits can be killed and will suffer the death penalties of a combatant.

As for the faster way of clearing the wanted flag, yes this is indeed the case, so maybe do some research to find out where the nearby thief hideouts are and you can farm in areas that make it harder for them to run away? This is all guess work and suggestions though its hard to say if it will be easy or hard without a geographical map that shows all this info for us to infer on. My hope is that the thief hideouts will be in places harder to get to than say walking back to town. Maybe its up in a mountain that you have to jump puzzle up to? Or down in a cave full of gnarly npcs that kill on sight? Just try not to assume that the developers would screw up things like this.

maouw

Sathrago wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

@Sathrago if they fight back they turn puple - and you can't get corruption from killing purples.
You can only get corruption from killing people who don't fight back.

You get corruption from killing people. That is the key point. That is why stealing does not corrupt you in this world. If I beat you into unconsciousness and steal your stuff, sure thats mean and annoying, but thats not so vile that they would become corrupted. Now, i am thinking of saying that you will gain corruption from stealing from players much lower in level than you to avoid a scenario where high level players go and bully low level players. At that point it would be a malicious act as you are abusing those much weaker than you that cannot fight back. Ill add this as: If you attack and knock a player unconscious that is 10 or more levels lower than yourself you will gain corruption.

No dude, literally, you don't get corruption from killing purples. You only get corruption from killing greens.

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