Damage Numbers - size matters

MMOs all have a different approach to the numerical power of the system. Some range from weapons that deal 10 damage at level 1 to a few hundred at max level. Some start in the thousands and scale up to the 10-thousands. I personally find the smaller numbers more attractive as it's easier to keep a background mental calculator running with this smaller level of addition. When you're trying to track four digit sequences instead of two digit sequences it becomes much more difficult, and rounding to the nearest thousand/hundred adds unnecessary cognitive load to this important part of encounters.

I prefer starting damage progressions in the 10s and scaling up from there instead of starting with thousands. Curious who in the community agrees and disagrees.

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bloodprophet

Agreed. There was a mention of this somewhere on a stream about this couple years ago and if I remember correctly IS agrees as well and is intended design that way. I could be wrong(just started working on first cup of coffee is still early).

insomnia

I don't get exponential growth in games. I prefer a liniar. Which would also make it better for those that do end game, when an expanion is release. Their gear would last longer. Instead, sometimes new gear in an expansion, is better than the best gear, previously

OnlyOne

Keeping it small and within the hundred does make sense and is what I personally prefer as well.

Sathrago

I feel like the natural progression should start in the 10s and end up around 3-4k being massive crits.

Noaani

I honestly don't see the difference, from a practical perspective.

The damage we are dealing only ever needs to be considered in relation to the amount of HP the targets we are killing have. It doesn't really matter if we are dealing 10 damage against a mob with 100 HP, or if we are dealing 1,000 damage against a mob with 10,000 HP. Both are the same, and would feel the same. As long as either can be displayed on screen well, I don't see any real difference.

The reason most people prefer small numbers is because that is what most people are used to seeing early on in MMO's.

Michael

I mean, if for example level 1 average damage number for a basic attack was 1000, and at end game is was 100,000, or if it was 10 to 1000, it wouldn't make a difference to me. But lower numbers definitely appeal more to me. I love only hitting 1-10 damage at the beginning of the game, then at end game only having up to around 20,000 health.

Vhaeyne

I like smaller numbers as well.

Skip this if you don't want a detailed explanation of why:

Recently with shadowlands WOW scaled down its DMG numbers yet again. Scaling every version of the game to 10-50 level range, and making the current expansion 50-60 is one of the smartest things they ever did. My only complaint is that they did not scale it far enough down. Right now WOWs cap is 60 and we are seeing numbers that are closer to the end of WOTLK which was level 80. Why am I talking about WOW and why is it important to AOC? Because as far as I am concerned out of every MMO I have played WOW is the only one I have seen with the courage to take on scaling and remove levels, powers, and stats from players for the better of the game. They seemed to have noticed that low numbers at the start of an expansion is good, but have not figured out how to keep them in check long term.

In contrast FFXIV has much much more fine tuned linear scaling. With a calculator right now you could probably do some napkin math, and be +/- 5% of the Health and DPS range for any character 5 expansions from now. Assuming they keep the pace they have had for the last 4 expansions.

WOW has seen multiple scale overhauls over the years because they play much more fast and loose with their gear systems. When a new raid tier comes out, its not just one raid tier. It is all 4 difficulty's with gear that covers a vast iLVL range. This makes it so that players can always work for gear around their skill level, but it also creates a system where the lowest gear of the tier and the highest gear of the tier are vastly different. Then the expansion sees 3-4 raid tiers, and the numbers are insane by the end of that expansion or the next one.

Too me the problem with WOWs scaling is that their are just too many sets of gear with too much of a difference in power between each increment. You can see huge spikes in power in a short amount of time. Which feels good when you first get the gear, but its not great long term. In FFXIV the opposite problem is present. It often takes multiple pieces of gear to really see a big difference in output. Which is underwhelming when you get a big upgrade, but when you see it all add up it can be satisfying.

The main problem here in relation to AOC is that with every new piece of gear. That 40-50% power influence that intrepid is aiming for is diluted. If they are too much like WOW a well geared character will be able to outclass a freshly capped or leveling character like they are nothing. This is also an issue for mobs in the world. With most MMOs they target the mobs to be the difficulty of the level of the zone. Then you quickly out gear every mob in the open world after a few weeks of raiding. AOC is locked to nod progression. How does Intrepid deal with scaling long term? Do they scale down the world or do they add more node tiers?

Another issue is leaving headroom for the over enchanting system. Over enchanting has to be worth it enough to drive the economy, but it can't be soo powerful that people are three manning/soloing raid bosses at endgame. Which is a very real possibility if they land the numbers wrong. Over enchanting will also effect that 40-50% power influence of gear.

I don't know what the number system will look like for AOC, but I can't imagine large numbers working out well. Intrepid needs to be extremely conservative about how often they release new tier sets and how much of a power increase can come from them. If it was me, I would make a tier 0 and 1 gear set at launch. Have tier 1 be exceedingly expensive to craft and over enchant. To the point that getting a good over enchanted set takes 6 months to a year to achieve from a combination of end game raiding for crafting mats, and constant money making. Then have a new gear set every 6 months to a year, along with a new tier of bosses. Have each tier only be 5% more more powerful than the last once fully over enchanted, and make the DPS checks on bosses impossible without having the last tier with a high over enchant.

If you stuck with me through all of that thank you. I have a lot more thoughts on this topic. There is just too much to get wrong here. Especially for a game that I would suspect is going to have a much more slower paced end game than most people are used to.

BlackBrony

I don't like huge numbers, I just need the information.
If I don't see them I wouldn't care either.
Numbers should be simple, and honestly, as long as it's only my numbers, I'm fine.
I'm tired of watching a screen with gazillion numbers that honestly don't make sense.

I prefer simplicity. But well, in the days of insta gratifications people like big numbers.,

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

The damage we are dealing only ever needs to be considered in relation to the amount of HP the targets we are killing have.

Exactly this. As long as the two are designed to work together, it shouldn't matter which way they choose to go.

akabear

The only issue I see is if the damage is displayed on the screen as it happens then larger numbers have greater potential to cloud the screen which is something I would not prefer to see

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

The only issue I see is if the damage is displayed on the screen as it happens then larger numbers have greater potential to cloud the screen which is something I would not prefer to see

Floating combat feedback like this is often abbreviated in games where the numbers do get high, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Since you wouldn't be using that specific type of information feedback for anything that requires a high degree of accuracy, if a hit is actually for 12,947,862 damage, having it display in that floating feedback as simply 12.9M is sufficient, as long as there is a more accurate record of it in an accessable location.

Nagash

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

Miinstrel

Nagash wrote: »

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

they make me PROUD! We are BETTER than dick jokes! Let the world cower before our mastery of double entendre and understated vulgarity.

bloodprophet

Nagash wrote: »

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

Cause you have been AFK last couple days.
Slacker

Nagash

bloodprophet wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

Cause you have been AFK last couple days.
Slacker

you can blame cyberpunk for that

maouw

Nagash wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

Cause you have been AFK last couple days.
Slacker

you can blame cyberpunk for that

ooft. I'm guilty.

Nagash

maouw wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

how has no one made "thats what she said" joke? you disappoint me

Cause you have been AFK last couple days.
Slacker

you can blame cyberpunk for that

ooft. I'm guilty.

it may have problems but it is one hell of a game

maouw

@Nagash
I agree. Complaints are a bit blown out of proportion. Most bugs are minor.
Console issues I can understand.

I got stuck in the Delamain warehouse though... re-entered after completing the quest and now there's no way out

consultant

larger numbers have a tendency to lose some of the immersion for me...numbers lower than ten thousand are pretty cool but after numbers go higher than lets say 100k then things get kind of vague to me. I mean if you get a new weapon and well it allows you to do 1000 more damge but that is only like one percent increase or less in damage 101k well not to meaning ful.

Also would like for damage to start at 50 that way items that increase damage by percentages are more apparent. For example if you start off with 10 damage and you have item that lets you do 5 % more damage that is less than one so might not even register unless they round up. Plus doing 10 damage and having it increasing to 11 or 10.5 does not seem much of an upgrade.

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