Zerging, PK'ing, zone control.

This game will have one of the most intensive systems ever built that will promote PK'ing. It has player ran zones by nodes. The top guild will for sure stomp any competition, just to try and be the only lvl 6 node on the server.

Tacic: You are the first guild to reach a level 6 Metropolis, how do you ensure that most people would want to farm in your area to give yourself the most income through taxes?

One way:
Travel to other Level 5 zones and be a dick to limit that zones ability to level up. Try and make those zones as inhospitable as possible by killing everyone at sight, and sell in the fact that your zone is way better as the only Level 6 Metropolis in the server. More access to end game events, better bosses, better dungeons etc. and promise that players will be protected there. Its the Mafia all over again. ^^

Right now the cap on max players in a guild is 300. Imaging having 300 people stumping on normal guilds around 30-60 players. It will be easy for them, and thus easy to wreck havok in the server by trying to limit the possibility of available endgame outside of your own zone.

What are your thoughts? Fun? Engaging? If you belong to a guild of lets say 40 players. How do you plan to combat this? The only possible route I see for this is to merge with other guilds and combat zerging with zerging. Or just stay low and be happy with level 4/5 being max for you on your node?

What do you think will be the outcome of the Node system in how guilds and players behave around it?

If 300 is the cap for guilds, what is the cap for the amount of players who belongs to a node? Can two guilds of total 600 players do the same thing and work at the same node, is there a cap there? I think this thing will be very server specific. If the "zerg" guild is a military PvP guild, it can be ugly or fun depending on how you see it. If its a PvE guild, then its a completely new ballgame.

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Nagash

"This game will have one of the most intensive systems ever built that will promote PK'ing. It has player ran zones by nodes. The top guild will for sure stomp any competition, just to try and be the only lvl 6 node on the server."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=17m26s&v=e7pDuuoRFeA&feature=youtu.be

"One way:
Travel to other Level 5 zones and be a dick to limit that zones ability to level up. Try and make those zones as inhospitable as possible by killing everyone at sight, and sell in the fact that your zone is way better as the only Level 6 Metropolis in the server. More access to end game events, better bosses, better dungeons etc. and promise that players will be protected there. Its the Mafia all over again. ^^"

there will still be other level 6 nodes even if guilds try to stop it, it will happen one way or another.

"Right now the cap on max players in a guild is 300. Imaging having 300 people stumping on normal guilds around 30-60 players. It will be easy for them, and thus easy to wreck havok in the server by trying to limit the possibility of available endgame outside of your own zone."

even if a guild wanted to do that it would be incredibly hard with the size of the world and the lack of fast travel it makes zergs impractical.

also guild can get bonuses bases on their population so big guilds may not always be best.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds#Guild_progression

oophus

Nagash wrote: »

"This game will have one of the most intensive systems ever built that will promote PK'ing. It has player ran zones by nodes. The top guild will for sure stomp any competition, just to try and be the only lvl 6 node on the server."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=17m26s&v=e7pDuuoRFeA&feature=youtu.be

I've seen this video before. Can you point me to what you want me to hear? As after listening again for 10 minutes they are not bringing up anything that touch this topics premisse.

"One way:
Travel to other Level 5 zones and be a dick to limit that zones ability to level up. Try and make those zones as inhospitable as possible by killing everyone at sight, and sell in the fact that your zone is way better as the only Level 6 Metropolis in the server. More access to end game events, better bosses, better dungeons etc. and promise that players will be protected there. Its the Mafia all over again. ^^"

there will still be other level 6 nodes even if guilds try to stop it, it will happen one way or another.

Not if one zerg tries to combat the progression. Set up camp of players at X, Y, Z etc location that would normally be grinding spots to level up a Node, and the last group is put to kill players that spawn again. Spawn-camping.

Some streamers are able to attract thousands of players if they want to. They can combine 2 or 3 sets of guilds at 900 people and do whatever they want. Nodes are even able to alliance up, or declare war as far as I know if I remember correctly, and once the Zerg guild have one Level 6 Node, they would try and control the next too. I'm assuming that nodes give taxes to the town, that is somewhat avaliable for the citicents of that node, which is why its possible for the major to adjust it. Thus there is your incentive to try and get as many people as possible to your town/node.

"Right now the cap on max players in a guild is 300. Imaging having 300 people stumping on normal guilds around 30-60 players. It will be easy for them, and thus easy to wreck havok in the server by trying to limit the possibility of available endgame outside of your own zone."

even if a guild wanted to do that it would be incredibly hard with the size of the world and the lack of fast travel it makes zergs impractical.

Ships are traveling pretty fast, so it depends. If the world is so big that they can't reach the other side of it, then the problem still exists locally. Switch out one zerg with two zergs only at north and south side doing the same thing.

also guild can get bonuses bases on their population so big guilds may not always be best.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds#Guild_progression

Yes, I've seen this, but this all comes down to risk vs reward. If a guilds purpose is "world domination", then bigger is better, even though some guild buffs and rewards are limited.

I highly doubt the differences between guilds bonuses will be so impactful that a guild of 40 can win in a siege vs a guild of 300. Or that a group of 2 players in a 20 guild size can win vs a group of 20 in a 200 group size.

Dargron

Frankly I'm rather excited to see if such domination is even possible. Even if it somehow is, I don't foresee it lasting long.

I could be completely wrong, but...

As I understand it, everything that happens within a Node generates XP towards leveling it up. Even sending in waves of gankers to cull the local population might result in just generating more XP for the Node. The only way I see to hamper a Node from reaching Lv.6 is to successfully siege it down. Sieges will presumably take considerable time and resources to set up. If you do succeed in sieging it down, it will probably have neighbouring Nodes maxed out on XP that are ready to jump to Lv.5 to replace the Node that was just taken down - and they probably just got a big population influx from the destroyed Node.

Add to all this that there are probably also four more Lv.5 Nodes spread out all over the map to try and keep down, each with their own neighbouring Nodes ready to level up as soon as they are taken down, and even the biggest alliance/coalition is going to struggle to keep the entire map down. It's a big map with little option for fast travel, and the thing about zergs is that they are no longer a zerg if they have to divide up their forces to deal with more than one thing at a time.

On top of all this, there are politics to consider. Even the most popular Internet celebrity is going to struggle to keep so many people on the same page, and the bigger they are, the more people will be looking to make a name for themselves by taking them down. EvE Online has an entire history filled with big seemingly untouchable corporations(guilds) being taken down - often by all the little guys temporarily banding together to overwhelm them, but just as often by spies working their way up the chain of command to take them down from the inside. If nobody challenges the regime, then the huge force will often develop rivalries within if they have no enemies without, and naturally tear themselves apart. Ashes seems to have the potential for all of the political intrigue EvE Online is notorious for.

oophus

dargron wrote: »

As I understand it, everything that happens within a Node generates XP towards leveling it up. Even sending in waves of gankers to cull the local population might result in just generating more XP for the Node. The only way I see to hamper a Node from reaching Lv.6 is to successfully siege it down. Sieges will presumably take considerable time and resources to set up. If you do succeed in sieging it down, it will probably have neighbouring Nodes maxed out on XP that are ready to jump to Lv.5 to replace the Node that was just taken down - and they probably just got a big population influx from the destroyed Node.

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If the node system works by it being leveled up by any activity then yes, I agree with you. But I would assume this to only count from Node 0 to Node 1? After Node 1 there would be the possibility to be "linked" to it as a citizen and thus have more options available for that node, including a more direct line of XP gain from its citizens?

If its not like this, then traveling the world will be pretty weird, seeing as you would feel like you "leveled up" something else that you weren't a part of. Going into Zone 2 while belonging to Zone 1 to deliver reagents and mats into Zone 1 again should give XP towards Zone 1 right?

Add to all this that there are probably also four more Lv.5 Nodes spread out all over the map to try and keep down, each with their own neighbouring Nodes ready to level up as soon as they are taken down, and even the biggest alliance/coalition is going to struggle to keep the entire map down. It's a big map with little option for fast travel, and the thing about zergs is that they are no longer a zerg if they have to divide up their forces to deal with more than one thing at a time.

Zone Control will have to be logically as to how far someone can reach. If players can't reach the south from the north within a timely manner, then the situation can just be duplicated by having the "north zerg" and the "south zerg".

If the size constraints is a limiting factor, then have a guild with control over 3-4 guilds as its "ranking up" system. All of them at max member-number before there is a diminishing return on stats and buffs for the guilds, where all come together to help the same cause in X situation. This is why I asked about if there is a cap to the citizenship system per node.

On top of all this, there are politics to consider. Even the most popular Internet celebrity is going to struggle to keep so many people on the same page, and the bigger they are, the more people will be looking to make a name for themselves by taking them down. EvE Online has an entire history filled with big seemingly untouchable corporations(guilds) being taken down - often by all the little guys temporarily banding together to overwhelm them, but just as often by spies working their way up the chain of command to take them down from the inside. If nobody challenges the regime, then the huge force will often develop rivalries within if they have no enemies without, and naturally tear themselves apart. Ashes seems to have the potential for all of the political intrigue EvE Online is notorious for.

Hehe, some backstabbing is always happening, and I hope you are right that if this is available here as "zerging" that there will be ways for people to disband it all by just having access to the top ranks. This is also a good topic to touch upon, on what can and can't be done in quick succession for a guild leader, as a spy. ^^

cyanideinsanity

dargron wrote: »

As I understand it, everything that happens within a Node generates XP towards leveling it up. Even sending in waves of gankers to cull the local population might result in just generating more XP for the Node. The only way I see to hamper a Node from reaching Lv.6 is to successfully siege it down. Sieges will presumably take considerable time and resources to set up. If you do succeed in sieging it down, it will probably have neighbouring Nodes maxed out on XP that are ready to jump to Lv.5 to replace the Node that was just taken down - and they probably just got a big population influx from the destroyed Node.

To add to your point, vassal nodes inside a parent node's ZIO also contribute node xp once said vassal reaches/maintains its xp cap. So you'd basically have to be waging a world war in which a metropolis fights literally everything outside of its own ZOI.

oophus

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

To add to your point, vassal nodes inside a parent node's ZIO also contribute node xp once said vassal reaches/maintains its xp cap. So you'd basically have to be waging a world war in which a metropolis fights literally everything outside of its own ZOI.

I'm trying to think as a "zerg" leader (I'm not) on how to combat it all, and one of the ways that may work is coastal nodes, assuming from the map we've seen that water often is a barrier towards neighboring nodes. Getting control over an island while trying to get this area to max level and combat others could maybe be viable.

The biggest reason for a zerg to be wanting to combat other metropolis cities is because when its max, the advantage of the zerg kinda gets lost within the siege system, as max 250 players can be within it if I remember correctly?

Would be interesting to know if it would be possible to "starve" out a city? How long time does it take for a node 3 to fall down to node 2 if no action is being done around the area? If for example the nodes citizens moved to another node, and that node 3 was left with almost no citicents? Should nodes fall back to 0 if nothing is happening around it for a while? Basically transferring it self from X Node level and keep its housings but remove more and more options until you've got a "ghost" city, with nature taking over again?

That in it self could be an interesting feature, that would spawn some PvP options.

BlightEmpire

Ah a interesting topic.

Im extremely interested in the Guild size versus Guild progression route's

The guild member "limit" of 300 is not final. Guild alliances depending if they limit that could make super guilds so to speak with nearly uncapped limits. For example lets say one of those big streamers comes in and has... i dunno 2k people who wanna join they make 6-7 guilds max them out then alliance and bam you have 2k unified people even if you only had 5 of these guilds which i wont deny is a gigantic amount to police and keep in control much less keep focused. But if you "could" do it then yes you potentially might be able to take all 5 metropolis.
(from the wiki)
Guild alliances may be a key part in creating a larger "guild".

This system would likely have some faults maybe you aren't all friendly and can still pk each other etc. But in general if you all worked together to capture the server easy done. Also you could send the best of the best of each guild to defend or fight other groups. Once a metropolis of science i think it is, once it is made it then has unlocked travel to the other metropolis's via a form of fast travel. Now during node siege that likely is turned off. But still can send out the best that way in a caravan and wreak havoc down the lands as they go. For fun of course.

The game does promote PK well it promotes freedom, If i choose to go kill those guys its my right freedom to be a good guy or a jerk. I do think most guilds out in the world will come together and work hard to level up their node's and the map is massive. It is highly unlikely that one guild unless they are as described above would be able to control the map. You would have to have coordination where each guild went to a separate part of the map and crushed resistance. Even then there's a limit to it. Many guilds will start up and compete nonstop for their node's to rise. And when a metropolis is formed sure many people will go join it for its benefits no doubt. But others will be intent on promoting their nodes and will cap theirs out at the highest possible level and work on sieging their competition. And promoting their own. If were talking a guild strictly forming a multiguild alliance and holding one zone. I could see it being held for a potentially long time. But people love to see zerg toppled. And same here other guilds would unite and fight against them.

Something else to consider is this. Even if your all united as a Guild alliance. The rewards for each guild could vary, how long until Guild B decides they do more and want control of the node or want control of the guild fortress in the area. I don't think any zerg will last forever, regardless until the game is played we see how players interact with systems and get guaranteed feedback anything we say is speculation. The system may get tested in beta and find that its all messed up and needs balancing. Or might work ok with some slight instances of this now and then. We just don't know. My guess is it will all be ok one way or another. Small groups will be a thing. But if your a solo player your going to likely have to join a big guild to get ahead or do content. The small guilds may need to also consider banding together even if their up against 600+ if you combine all the smaller groups together in all surrounding nodes i think they stand a decent chance of fighting the big guild down then dissolving alliance if its no longer needed/wanted.

cyanideinsanity

oophus wrote: »

Would be interesting to know if it would be possible to "starve" out a city? How long time does it take for a node 3 to fall down to node 2 if no action is being done around the area? If for example the nodes citizens moved to another node, and that node 3 was left with almost no citicents? Should nodes fall back to 0 if nothing is happening around it for a while? Basically transferring it self from X Node level and keep its housings but remove more and more options until you've got a "ghost" city, with nature taking over again

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#Node_atrophy

oophus

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#Node_atrophy

Yes, but as you can see the wiki doesn't go deep into this topic, it just mentions that its something really up in the air on how it would work for de-level. But as of right now, it would in fact become a "ghost-city", at least for a while before its deleted. But I hope they keep it as a ghost city, and just have it excisting in the world as the world's/servers "history". To level up a ghost city again could require other types of XP measures vs leveling up an empty node imo. That could be a nice change for a server that have lived for a while.

What I'm more interested in knowing is if there would be ways to "force" this effect on cities that do have a good portion of people in it by zone control, as a PvP thing. If a zerg keeps control of most of the nodes harvesting nodes, and kills off players who tries to harvest, then wouldn't it be possible to starve a city? May be the tacic that some will go for then, vs a sieges at level 6. Try and get it down to level 5 first.

I don't really mind this, as it creates options. Being starved will force forth diplomatics vs other guilds to come and help towards alliances.

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